The Challenge as it stands: I have 1 almost dead 2.8, 1 '95 Camaro 3.4 with 39k miles and very good compression, and 6 more consecutive days of Spring Break to do nothing but turn wrenches. This will be my official build up thread for the project, so everyone stay tuned! Updates will most likely be late at night when I'm too tired to work on the car anymore, and maybe if I take a long lunch one day.

Before I go any further, I have a whole list of thank yous to people who've helped me get to this point and patiently answered all my swap questions and waylaid my fears. They are, in no particular order, FastIndyFiero, KEV, pokey, fierobear, sppdy, PontiAddict, Reno, AusFiero and Toddster. All of you are awesome and you're help to date has been invaluable.

The first day's report:
Today was a go-for day. Made a trip to Santa Cruz and then to Boulder Creek to pick up the engine stand and hoist Reno is loaning me. I didn't realize the hoist was so big, so I had to make an extra trip back to Aptos to unload it. Then it was off to Hayward. Dorris Auto Wreckers in Hayward, CA was very cool and very helpful. Fierobear met me there and went Fiero hunting while I worked out the details with the yard. There are 3 dukes there if anyones interested. Ones an 88 and has the complete suspension.
Anyway, checked out the engine and it looks very nice. Dorris Auto Wreckers is very cool. They keep the good engines stored in containers and will fork lift them from there to the bed of your truck. Theres a NorthStar out of a '00 DeVille in there if anyone wants that. With the engine all loaded up, we headed south down to Morgan Hill to meet up with Toddster.
We pulled the engine out of the truck and got the thing mounted up on the stand to take a look at it. The clutch and pressure plate are still in good condition, so I'm keeping them as spares. The pressure plate is a little pitted cause someone apparently didn't know how to drive thier Camaro very well. Big surprise it wound up in a junkyard. Popped the oil pan off and my goodness does it look VERY nice in there. This engine was taken care of all of its 39k miles. I definally scored a good one. I am VERY happy about that.
Unfortunately, this day of car stuff couldn't go by without my Inverse Midas Touch (as my dad calls it) kicking in. Todd and I misinterpreted Rodney's instructions and drilled the new starter holes too large. (Note to Rodney: Please clarify for knuckleheads like us that the big bit is for a starter hole and the little bit is for the actual hole to be tapped.) 2 Auto parts stores and an hardware store later, we settled on bolts and a tap that would work well for us. As if that wasn't enough, we broke 2 taps tapping one of the starter holes. But it got done, and I got to go for a ride in the Indy and check out the Free GT and Todds other projects.
Just for one more kick in the shins, when I got home I found out that the stand had the wrong size bolts, so it was off to the store before they closed. And to add insult to injury, I got the wrong size bolts so I have to go back tomarrow.

Ok, thats the big first day. More to come tomarrow night and hopefully pics! My dad absconded with the camera today so I have no before pics of the engine yet. I will get some up, along with progress pics as soon as I can.

The biggest challenge is to be done this week before my Spring Break is over so I can go cruising. Second to that is to have the car in perfect running order for the Rally Through the Valley at the end of the month. I will be there, and so will the car. I swear it! Or at it! Or both! Wish me luck!

May I recomend many cases sobe aderniln rush and nofear go fast! j/k. man thats one heck of a project youv'e got going, I wish you the best of results. Good Luck!!! Joe

quote Originally posted by moto838: Bump; I can't belive that nobody else has jumped in to razz

With all the things I have done in the past I have no room at all the Razz!!!!

quote Originally posted by moto838:and encurage him on this big project. Joe

WTG, I hope to do my project with the same energy, only bonus I have is no time limit. I also get to play with my new toys, Impact Gun and Air rachet!!! WooHoo, Lets take this puppy Apart!

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http://home.cfl.rr.com/fierose
Central Florida Fieroshttp://www.centralfloridafieros.org

Give it hell, Scott. Give me a holler if you need an extra set of bloody knuckles.

If you are really ambitious, you should be able to do it in a couple of long days, providing you have the right tools, all the parts, and nothing breaks. Good luck.

quote Originally posted by avengador1: If you are really ambitious, you should be able to do it in a couple of long days, providing you have the right tools, all the parts, and nothing breaks. Good luck.

The right tools, nothing breaks, no mental breakdowns....

Like I said, don't forget to sleep!

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My Web page

If you'd like, I will send an email to the Golden Gate Fieros list and see if anyone can stop by and give you a hand.

Stimpy, I was thinking of going down there later this week. Let me know if you plan to go, maybe we can help him gangbang that project to completion.

You should be able to do that swap with no problem. I did one in 22 hours. The hardest part was the bolt holes for the starter. For that I just clamped the starter down and used it as my template. Good luck.

Sean

Day 2 Update! (well, technically its been day 3 for over an hour now, but thats semantics)

As I promised, pictures with this post! Got A LOT of work done today. I'm very proud of myself and very thankful to my friend Eric for his help this afternoon/evening. I started out the day tearing apart the 3.4 and my my is it pretty in there. This motor was well taken care of its first 39k miles. The tear down seemed a little daunting at first, as there was a bunch of stuff (the EGR mostly) that was unfamiliar to me. But once I got going it was no big deal. The fuel rail took me a while to get off because I wasn't sure how the injectors attached to it and the head and was afraid I might break them. But it all came apart ok. The longest part of the tear down was scraping off what was left of the old seals.

The rest of the day was spent diconnecting the 2.8 from the Fiero. Many many thanks to Toddster to pointing out on the Free GT all the things that needed to come off and where they were. Getting that thing ready to drop took a LONG time, longer than actually getting it out of the car. That was fun too (sarcasm). We had to stick the car on jack stands on top of concrete blocks way up off the ground so we could use the hoist to reposition the engine on the dolly better not once but 3 times. Just a little sketchy. But before the clock struck midnight, the 2.8 was out and ready to be worked on. Now that task is looking daunting with all the stuff running around on the top of the engine!

Note to Stimpy and Fierobear and whoever else: While taking the engine out it became obvious how much "fun" it will be putting it back in, so maybe we could work out a day to get you guys and some others over here to double check my work and help me get the whole thing back in the car.

Ok! Enough talk! Time for pictures!

The 3.4 at the start of the day

Details of the motor conveniently displayed on the top

Almost all stripped down. Had to go to 2 stores to find the right size Torx driver (TX47 by the way) to get the Alt bracket, and later my brake calipers, off. Note the gnarlyness on the water pump.

Better picture of the water pump gnarlyness. I'm holding the water pump itself on the left. Good thing thats goin. I cleaned off the portion on the engine as best I could. Tomarrow I'll carefully sand the rest of the corrosion off with 120 grit sandpaper.

More pics in the next post!

Jeez. That new engine does look clean!

Here's some stuff that I found out when I did mine...

I spent the largest portion of my time cleaning stuff that was removed from the 2.8. Valve covers, intake manifolds, timing cover and such. The sooner you get that stuff removed from the engine and into some sort of cleaning solution, or whatever, the better off you'll be. (YMMV. My old 2.8 was abused and neglected, and thoroughly encrusted with crud. Inside and out.)

Also, If I read your posts correctly, it sounds like you're planning to use the Camaro timing cover.
Don't.
Your Fiero water pump and accessories won't bolt to it correctly. At least mine wouldn't.

Best of luck. If I can help with anything (although it looks like you've got it under control) just shoot me a line.

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Raydar
88 3.4 coupe...........

Coming soon...
88 Formula, presently under the knife.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 04-06-2004).]

Nice to see it's goin good for ya! Stop by Spinchat sometime and give us an update...

You do know the Camaro 3.4 has a smaller cam than the Fiero 2.8, right? That's one reason a lot of 3.4 swaps run out of umph above 4000 rpm. While the motor's out, if it's an option, I highly recommend a new cam. At least go with the GM cam that comes in the 3.4 crate motors. There's been lots of discussion on here about what cam to go with. The Crane 2030 is also a good one. The Comp 272(?) I believe is one of the more radical grinds to use with the factory ECM (not sure how well it works with the ECM).

Sent 3.4L motor installation info your way by your PM.
Check it out.
Do note that the 3.4L stock cam is less aggressive than the stock fiero cam. Even if you add the 2030 cam you would boost mega horsepower more than compare to what is already in the stock motor.

Enjoying the thread! Thanks for posting pics etc - I plan on trying a 3.4 AND auto-->manual swap marathon sometime in the next year, so post as many pics as you can! I'll need the help!

Good work. As mentioned, check out some cam upgrades. Also mentioned is cleaning and painting. A nice engine compartment is worth its weight in gold. You'll be glad you did.

Cool thread too.

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-Chris

86 GT
***95 Camaro 3.4 swap, Ported and polished heads and intakes, CRX CAI, Custom Cam, steel vacuum lines, steel braided EGR tube, new Wire Harness, New Exhaust, No Cat, Flowmaster, polished poly dog bone. Isuzu 5 speed, Short through shifter
***Intrax 2" drop springs, Full Polly Suspension, Sencetrack Struts and Shocks, Grand AM brake upgrade, steel braided brake lines, 17" Gun Metal Wheels, Khumo Tires
***Racing Seats, SunPro tach w/ shift light, White face guages, carbon fiber Steering wheel, Carbon Fiber dash accents and custom sphere shift knob,

Rock on Scott! Just remember, it can't get any worse than Sunday. Oh wait...these are Fieros, it can always get worse. OK, Nevermind that. Just keep pressing on!

Regarding the CAM issue, I've heard some people are getting good results by putting the original 2.8 cam into the 3.4. Anyone here done that?

PS. Are you planning on replacing the cradle bushings? I have a set of Darrell Morse Aluminum ones that I have set aside for another project. But if you want them you can have them and order a new set to replace them when you can since I won't need them any time soon.

[This message has been edited by Toddster (edited 04-06-2004).]

Thanks guys.

Raydar: I was planning on using the Fiero timing cover. I was told before that the Camaros' won't work. Thanks for the tip though!

As for the cams, I talked to KEV at length about moving over the 2.8 cam to the 3.4 and the general impression was that there is no point, as the Fiero cam is made for lower RPM power and the 3.4 cam was for more power up higher. Also, I believe it was CA_Extreme who got failed on smog because of a loopy idle thanks to an aftermarket cam. All in all, replacing the cam is something that I think is beyond my capabilites. I've never torn that far into an engine and I don't have any kind of step by step instructions, so I don't want to pull things apart and put them back wrong or not be able to put them back. Maybe someday in the future I'll take a whack at the cam, but not now. I also don't have the funds to buy a new cam or other parts I may need if I do something wrong.

Toddster: This is true, it can always get worse! At least we got it all squared away on sunday and it all worked out. If you're offering new cradle bushings, then sure! I'll take em and get you another set later. I was gonna use the old ones, but they look a bit gnarly. Also, did you see in one of my other posts? I think I'm gonna need some qualified help later this week to get the whole mess back into the car (and to double check my engine work) if your available.

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: Toddster: This is true, it can always get worse! At least we got it all squared away on sunday and it all worked out. If you're offering new cradle bushings, then sure! I'll take em and get you another set later. I was gonna use the old ones, but they look a bit gnarly. Also, did you see in one of my other posts? I think I'm gonna need some qualified help later this week to get the whole mess back into the car (and to double check my engine work) if your available.

If the engine still isn't in by Saturday, there will likely be more people available. I should be good just about any day later in the week. I have to diagnose a problem with my wife's coupe. She's driving the yellow formula to work, and all my other fieros are down.

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: Toddster: This is true, it can always get worse! At least we got it all squared away on sunday and it all worked out. If you're offering new cradle bushings, then sure! I'll take em and get you another set later. I was gonna use the old ones, but they look a bit gnarly. Also, did you see in one of my other posts? I think I'm gonna need some qualified help later this week to get the whole mess back into the car (and to double check my engine work) if your available.

I'm glad to help. I have a small mountain here to climb first but I should be available Friday or Saturday. PM the directions to your place and I'll come over which ever day I am free.

I hope the part you broke is not what Im thinking, but from your description of a braided line, on the driver's side, going to the front of the car, I would guess it's the clutch line to the slave cylinder. If you have to replace that line, it is a bit of work and a bit expensive. I think Fierodave might have some in stock , cheaper than the Fiero store. Good luck with your build.

quote Originally posted by avengador1: I hope the part you broke is not what Im thinking, but from your description of a braided line, on the driver's side, going to the front of the car, I would guess it's the clutch line to the slave cylinder. If you have to replace that line, it is a bit of work and a bit expensive. I think Fierodave might have some in stock , cheaper than the Fiero store. Good luck with your build.

Its not the hose itself, thats fine. its the connector that goes from the hose to the metal pipe sticking out. Thats what twisted apart. Hopefully I can just get another connector and be good to go, nothing else appears to be damaged. I've got pics that will be posted later when I stop for the night. Can't believe its already 7:15. After I eat, I'm going down with masking tape and a sharpie to mark all the connections on the wiring harness so I can pull it and put it back on right. I may or may not tackle the plenum, vacuum hoses, etc etc tonight.

Toddster: It depends when I get everything else done. Theres a bunch of work to finish before the 3.4 goes on the cradle, so I'll let you know if it will be ready by Friday or if Saturday would be better. Thanks again!

BIG IMPORTANT QUESTION: On what page of the Factory Service Manual AND/OR the Haynes Manual will I find all the Torque numbers I need? I need timing cover, valve covers, plenums, exhaust manifolds, the works. Tomarrow I need to start putting things on the 2.8 and I need to know what numbers to torque all the various bolts down to. Any and all help will be GREATLY appreciated!

Factory book check the last page of section 6A , thats where it is in my 88 book. hang in there. Joe

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: BIG IMPORTANT QUESTION: On what page of the Factory Service Manual AND/OR the Haynes Manual will I find all the Torque numbers I need? I need timing cover, valve covers, plenums, exhaust manifolds, the works. Tomarrow I need to start putting things on the 2.8 and I need to know what numbers to torque all the various bolts down to. Any and all help will be GREATLY appreciated!

If you're talking about the Haynes books for the fiero, all the torque specs are at the begining of each section. There are like 2 or 3 sections I think on engine overhaul which is where you'll find a lot of the specs. Just be sure that if you're using the haynes book for all year fieros, that you're looking at the torque specs for the 2.8, and not the 2.5.

Matt

Edit with some page numbers if you are using the Haynes 84 thru 88 all models book (not sure if this is the only haynes version or not).
What I think you're looking for.
pg 75
pg 95

G'luck!

[This message has been edited by fiero go fast (edited 04-07-2004).]

Thanks guys! Did I mention how much I LOVE this forum?

Lots got done today. The 2.8 is almost completely stripped. All thats left are the crank pulley, harmonic balancer, timing cover, and oil pan. A few parts are loosely bolted onto the 3.4 already, but most are just set aside till I start getting the gaskets and sealant out. I must say, the 2.8 heads look very clean for having 18 years and 153k miles on them. Got the wiring harness all labeled and removed and the vacuum hose also labeled and removed. I'm now left with a few more BIG IMPORTANT QUESTIONS that I can't answer for sure myself.

Also, when removing the retaining clip from what I think is the cold start injector, the clip fell down into the distributor hole. Go figure. If it doesn't turn up in the oil pan, the engine will have to be torn apart and that piece removed. Although, the engine has to be torn apart a rebuilt to ever be of use again anyway, so what the hey.

BIG IMPORTANT QUESTION #2: How do I remove the distributor hole cap on the 3.4? Do I pry it out with a screwdriver or is there a better way?

BIG IMPORTANT QUESTION #3: I use the 2.8 fuel rail, right? The 3.4s doesn't look like it would work, but theres something else bugging me. On the 2.8 rail, theres a metal tube that runs from the top of the rail down to what appears to be a 7th injector on the head. There is a connector for it on the injector wiring harness as well. I assume this is the cold start injector. The 3.4 has no provision for this. I plan to cap off the whole in the fuel rail and leave the connector disconnected. Is that right?

BIG IMPORTANT QUESTION #4: There is a sensor, that is pictured below, that has something to do with the coolant. It plugs straight down into the head on the 2.8 next to the coolant fan switch, to the right of the thermostat housing. There is no place for this next to the fan switch on the 3.4. There is, however, a sensor on the 3.4 that is down below the thermostat housing that plugs into the block. The problem is that sensor is held down with a bolt, it is not screwed in. Should I tap that hole and screw my sensor in there, or do something else?

Ok, now for tonights pictures!

First, the mystery sensor on the 3.4 I was asking about in BIQ #4

Next, 2 pics of the connector I broke and was talking about in previous posts.

And a general progress pic from the middle of the day.

[This message has been edited by Fastback 86 (edited 04-07-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: Thanks guys! Did I mention how much I LOVE this forum? Lots got done today. The 2.8 is almost completely stripped. All thats left are the crank pulley, harmonic balancer, timing cover, and oil pan. A few parts are loosely bolted onto the 3.4 already, but most are just set aside till I start getting the gaskets and sealant out. I must say, the 2.8 heads look very clean for having 18 years and 153k miles on them. Got the wiring harness all labeled and removed and the vacuum hose also labeled and removed. I'm now left with a few more BIG IMPORTANT QUESTIONS that I can't answer for sure myself. Also, when removing the retaining clip from what I think is the cold start injector, the clip fell down into the distributor hole. Go figure. If it doesn't turn up in the oil pan, the engine will have to be torn apart and that piece removed. Although, the engine has to be torn apart a rebuilt to ever be of use again anyway, so what the hey. BIG IMPORTANT QUESTION #2: How do I remove the distributor hole cap on the 3.4? Do I pry it out with a screwdriver or is there a better way?

I dunno about this one.

quote BIG IMPORTANT QUESTION #3: I use the 2.8 fuel rail, right? The 3.4s doesn't look like it would work, but theres something else bugging me. On the 2.8 rail, theres a metal tube that runs from the top of the rail down to what appears to be a 7th injector on the head. There is a connector for it on the injector wiring harness as well. I assume this is the cold start injector. The 3.4 has no provision for this. I plan to cap off the whole in the fuel rail and leave the connector disconnected. Is that right?

Use the 2.8 fuel rail.
I used 19# injectors with mine. Stock fuel pressure regulator. (That's the round black thing on top of the fuel rail.)
Many people use the Camaro injectors. YMMV.
The 7th injector is the cold-start injector.
I just realized that it looks like you're planning to use the Camaro lower intake manifold. Most everyone uses their Fiero manifold, and retains the cold start injector. I've never seen the Camaro manifold, so I don't know what holes may be different.

quote BIG IMPORTANT QUESTION #4: There is a sensor, that is pictured below, that has something to do with the coolant. It plugs straight down into the head on the 2.8 next to the coolant fan switch, to the right of the thermostat housing. There is no place for this next to the fan switch on the 3.4. There is, however, a sensor on the 3.4 that is down below the thermostat housing that plugs into the block. The problem is that sensor is held down with a bolt, it is not screwed in. Should I tap that hole and screw my sensor in there, or do something else?

The sensor that you're talking about is probably the thermal switch for the cold start injector. It has a connector similar to the CS injector. Kind of rectangular.
The sensor in the front of the 3.4 block is a cam position sensor, I believe. You don't need it. You can remove it and put a plug in the hole, or just cut off the wire and be done with it.

Oh yeah... The big black tube that comes from the bottom of the TB to the intake manifold next to the CS injector is your idle air tube.
All the air supplied by the IAC goes through that tube, and directly into the lower intake.

I would use the fieros intake not the 3.4's everything will go allot smother!!

But have fun with dont quit.

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Q:
BIG IMPORTANT QUESTION #2: How do I remove the distributor hole cap on the 3.4? Do I pry it out with a screwdriver or is there a better way?

A:
http://www.my-fiero.com/pictures/3.4-project/34_project-page-5.htm
is this what you need?

All photo's
http://www.my-fiero.com/pictures/3.4-project/index.htm

GREAT THREAD!!!!
Thanks for all the info and pics etc.
I am also doing the 3.4 and have NO experience about engines.
so post many info and pics!

edit:
see the Camaro manifold
http://www.my-fiero.com/pictures/3.4-project/34_project-page-2.htm

Stan
The Netherlands.

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Fiero GT 1988 2.8V6
Fiero GT 1987 3.4V6 T-top in progress

my_fiero@hotmail.com
www.my-fiero.com

[This message has been edited by my-fiero (edited 04-07-2004).]

BIG IMPORTANT QUESTION #2: How do I remove the distributor hole cap on the 3.4? Do I pry it out with a screwdriver or is there a better way?

I used a large set of pliers and pulled it out. On my 3.4L it came up easily.

BIG IMPORTANT QUESTION #3: I use the 2.8 fuel rail, right? The 3.4s doesn't look like it would work, but theres something else bugging me. On the 2.8 rail, theres a metal tube that runs from the top of the rail down to what appears to be a 7th injector on the head. There is a connector for it on the injector wiring harness as well. I assume this is the cold start injector. The 3.4 has no provision for this. I plan to cap off the whole in the fuel rail and leave the connector disconnected. Is that right?

Use the Fiero fuel rail, Yes that is the cold start injector.

BIG IMPORTANT QUESTION #4: There is a sensor, that is pictured below, that has something to do with the coolant. It plugs straight down into the head on the 2.8 next to the coolant fan switch, to the right of the thermostat housing. There is no place for this next to the fan switch on the 3.4. There is, however, a sensor on the 3.4 that is down below the thermostat housing that plugs into the block. The problem is that sensor is held down with a bolt, it is not screwed in. Should I tap that hole and screw my sensor in there, or do something else?

You need to use the lower intake from the Fiero 2.8L, You can't use the 3.4L intake base due to sensor and the coolant port on the front. The sensor in the pic is the cam sensor for the 3.4L's original DIS ignition system. You will need to pull it out in order to change the cam, then you will need to either trim the bottom or get a cover for the hole (GM does sell them). If you are not changing the cam, just cut the wires.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 04-07-2004).]

Scott, do you have a new upper engine gasket set? If not, you will need one. Intake set alone is Fel Pro MS93020. If you get the entier Head Set It's HS8699PT5. But I don't think you want to add rebuilding the heads to your list of chores.

DAMN THE MAN! I was REALLY hoping I wouldn't have to pull the lower intake too. RRRR oh well. Well if I have to do that, then maybe I WILL put the 2.8 cam in there. Thats a unbolt and bolt thing, right? Just need the right torque numbers and some engine grease?

Oh ya, I have a complete gasket set for a complete rebuild from Detroit Gaskets, so I'm good on that. Thanks anyway Todd!

[This message has been edited by Fastback 86 (edited 04-07-2004).]

Your picture confirms my suspisions about the clutch line. You need to remember that that is a hydraulic line and it will be subjected to high pressure. If you can reflare the end, you might be able to save it, it doesn't look like you will be able to because the stub you have left is pretty short. Don't feel bad, I kinked mine when I was taking the engine out the last, and it wasn't even my first try at removing the engine as I had done it before. Lucky for me the kink wasn't too bad and I was able to reuse the line. www.fierodave.com has some NOS ones or the Fiero store has them if he can't supply you with what you need. Good luck and keep us updated on your advances.

[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 04-07-2004).]