PLEASE DO NOT TAKE THIS POST TO HEART AND START A FLAME WAR. I WOULD LIKE REAL INPUT HERE.

1. People who are afraid to do anything without asking the boards 'permission' or 'acceptance'

2. Fiero Vendor a$$ kissers. These people are the ones who dont know how to goto a hardware store or nut and bolt shop to buy some nuts and bolt and would rather buy these so called 'kits' that these vendors have pieced together from their local nut and bolt and sell at a premium.

3. Fiero Parts Vendors who feel the need to overcharge for the simpliest items. 250 bucks for motor mounts? 2500 for adaptor kits? 100 bucks for SS vacuum lines?

4. I feel only a small portion of the actual members here have anything worth saying and the board, as it is set up now with only 2 sections and ONE moderator, their posts get lost sooo fast in the truly mundane posts such as "what does a rear sway bar do?" "whats wrong with my car" " my lights dont work" or the ever popular "im going to mass produce these awesome products for cheap, what do you think?" threads that allways die a horrible death on page 10. THIS FORUM NEEDS A "IM NEW AND I NEED HELP" SECTION.

5. Trolls and post whores who have nothing better to do than flood the forum regarding the same thing over and over or adding the ever famous post " yeah" " nice" "me too"

I wouldnt doubt if my IP is one of the "most logged on". I am here when ever I can. I help where ever I can. Folks here seem to get all worked up if you dont use flowery answers or god forbid, dont agree!

Something else that bothers me, people who know what they are talking about, hanging around here less and less, or getting banned and forced to lurk....If it wasnt for www.60degreev6.com I would have never met Shaun and he has been a HUGE help with my motor build.

Okay last one and this is a doozy.

I have a .....for lack of better words....problem with {edited due to good point made by naskie18]...

I would be truly shocked if ANYONE has the ball bearings to agree with me.

------------------
Calgary - August 1, 2004 Fiero Fiesta
1984 Indy Fiero 3.4/3100 Hybrid NA
*ALL THROTTLE AND NO BOTTLE*
http://www.gmpcm.com/ Killer ECM/ PCM tuning software and information

[This message has been edited by donk316 (edited 06-16-2004).]

I agree with what you said, except for the moderator part. For only one man moderating this large of a forum, I think he does very well. So I'm not sure where your going with that, but that should be something private between the two of you.

i agree with some of it....some parts are a little stretched out for me, but hey, everyone is entitled to thier own opinion....PM me if you feel like having a good conversation on any of it....same AIM name as this one as well

You missed one... whiners who just can't handle the way things are - and feel the need to complain about it all the time.

I get very tired, very quickly of people who whine about...

1. Vendors and their loyal customers - why would anyone want to support vendors who support this tiny community?
Without these vendors & customers, the Fiero community wouldn't be anywhere as strong as it is today, and then you'd be whining about the lack of parts and support for the car. OR you'd be driving a Honda.

2. Product Costs associate with custom parts (go design your own if it's so cheap & easy)
Don't whine about it... either go create something everyone else wants, which you can benefit from - or simply STFU about it! You obviously don't understand what R&D costs are associated with a small-market product.

3. Whether or not any other member's posts are worthy enough of being posted
There is only one person here who has the power to determine this - whether you or anyone likes it or not.

4. People who think they know what's best for the other 9455 members because they're here all the time
Yes, everyone thinks they're opinion is the right or best thing for everyone else... *news flash* it's not!

5. People who bash the moderator/admin because they don't have anything better to do.
This is just simply ungrateful. Cliff has provided the Fiero community with the best resource possible - and you have the nutz to piss-and-moan about it (and this isn't the first time I've read your whiney rants). Do you pay for this space? For the bandwith it takes up? No. If you think you can do better... by all means try - others have.

I don't agree with you... but I accept the fact that you are a "fellow member" here and you are entitled to your own opinion. And I respect that... I just don't have to agree with you.

quote Originally posted by donk316: 1. People who are afraid to do anything without asking the boards 'permission' or 'acceptance'

People do whatever they want. This is why we have Jordan's green Fiero. This is why half the flame wars start, people do something, others don't like it and say so, and there you go, well on your way to the trash can.

quote Originally posted by donk316: 2. Fiero Vendor a$$ kissers. These people are the ones who dont know how to goto a hardware store or nut and bolt shop to buy some nuts and bolt and would rather buy these so called 'kits' that these vendors have pieced together from their local nut and bolt and sell at a premium.

Some people would rather buy everything they need all together and pay a premium for it than have to go get all the individual parts themselves. Its just easier that way.

quote Originally posted by donk316: 3. Fiero Parts Vendors who feel the need to overcharge for the simpliest items. 250 bucks for motor mounts? 2500 for adaptor kits? 100 bucks for SS vacuum lines?

Supply and Demand. If the market is willing to pay 250 for motor mounts, the vendor will sell them for 250. If the market isn't willing to pay it, the vendor will either drop their price, never sell any, or simply go out of business. If you don't agree with the price a vendor is charging, then you gather the raw materials, and you make the part you need.

quote Originally posted by donk316: 4. I feel only a small portion of the actual members here have anything worth saying and the board, as it is set up now with only 2 sections and ONE moderator, their posts get lost sooo fast in the truly mundane posts such as "what does a rear sway bar do?" "whats wrong with my car" " my lights dont work" or the ever popular "im going to mass produce these awesome products for cheap, what do you think?" threads that allways die a horrible death on page 10. THIS FORUM NEEDS A "IM NEW AND I NEED HELP" SECTION.

This forum has a I NEED HELP SECTION, its called TD&Q. It is apparently one of the 5 forums that you missed in your assesment of only having two sections. The forum has one moderator because Cliff doesn't want another moderator. This has been discussed before.

quote Originally posted by donk316: 5. Trolls and post whores who have nothing better to do than flood the forum regarding the same thing over and over or adding the ever famous post " yeah" " nice" "me too"

The ever famous "yeah", "nice", or "me too" is not entirely as worthless as you think. If I do a mod to my car and want to show it off, I post a thread sharing how it looks and how I did it. Some poeple will not like it and say so. Some people will like the idea but have ways they think it could be improved. Some people will like it and say "nice" or "I like it too" or "yeah, that looks good". Being contrite and to the point when agreeing with something someone else posted is now considered post whoring? Interesting.

quote Originally posted by donk316: I wouldnt doubt if my IP is one of the "most logged on". I am here when ever I can. I help where ever I can. Folks here seem to get all worked up if you dont use flowery answers or god forbid, dont agree!

People don't get all worked up if you don't use flowery answers or don't agree, people get all worked up if you're a complete arse about whatever you're disagreeing on. At least, most people don't.

quote Originally posted by donk316: Something else that bothers me, people who know what they are talking about, hanging around here less and less, or getting banned and forced to lurk....If it wasnt for www.60degreev6.com I would have never met Shaun and he has been a HUGE help with my motor build.

Shaun was smart and knew what he was doing, yes. But he was an abrasive individual, and had been warned numerous times to tone it down and didn't. He's gone because of his attitude. Not because he tried to help others out or because he criticized others, but because of the way he did it.

quote Originally posted by donk316: I have a .....for lack of better words....problem with the Admin / Moderator that probably would be better left to a private conversation as opposed to being aired out here. Its mainly to do with the underlying attitude and presence here...

Then talk to Cliff about it. If it would be better left to a private conversation, then do so. Don't say it would be better left to a private conversation and then mention it in a public forum.

Thats my take. Take it or leave it, I don't care, but thats it.

------------------
Nick www.naskie18.com AIM: Naskie182010

I agree!

Now I think I am guilty of a 'nice' / 'me too' type answer.

That said, I guess I'll be banned by the time I get home tomorrow.....

[This message has been edited by Lex (edited 06-16-2004).]

Yeah

MinnGreenGT - i think your missing my point. bringing up underlying problems on the board is far from whining. Heres my answer to your response.

1. Vendors and their loyal customers - why would anyone want to support vendors who support this tiny community?
Without these vendors & customers, the Fiero community wouldn't be anywhere as strong as it is today, and then you'd be whining about the lack of parts and support for the car. OR you'd be driving a Honda.

I dont agree. How do the vendors make the community stronger? I bought once form the fiero store when i didnt know any better, 7 years ago. Now i know what to look for and what will work and what wont. I almost get the impression that they prey on the uninitated.

2. Product Costs associate with custom parts (go design your own if it's so cheap & easy)
Don't whine about it... either go create something everyone else wants, which you can benefit from - or simply STFU about it! You obviously don't understand what R&D costs are associated with a small-market product.

Are you serious? How much "r&d" goes into 2 pieces of plate metal bent into a C and a bushing bolted between it? I have built everything on my car! 900 dollars for a plate with 2 bolt patterns drilled into it? I wouldnt do this cause i would feel GUILTY charging that much. Hell a friend and I are working on a bolt on dual throttle body plenum for the fiero and we were discussing pricing, I want it AFFORDABLE not to get rich off of. 500 bucks for a manifold is rediculous. Id pay 250 at the most for proven gains. And yes the prototype is built and is close to being up and running.

3. Whether or not any other member's posts are worthy enough of being posted
There is only one person here who has the power to determine this - whether you or anyone likes it or not.

Thats the problem....one person.

4. People who think they know what's best for the other 9455 members because they're here all the time
Yes, everyone thinks they're opinion is the right or best thing for everyone else... *news flash* it's not!

Your right it doesnt matter what i think. its only my opinion.

5. People who bash the moderator/admin because they don't have anything better to do.
This is just simply ungrateful. Cliff has provided the Fiero community with the best resource possible - and you have the nutz to piss-and-moan about it (and this isn't the first time I've read your whiney rants). Do you pay for this space? For the bandwith it takes up? No. If you think you can do better... by all means try - others have.

Again your missing my point. My intent is not to BASH Cliff. Yes thanks for having a server and leaving it on but times change and the board is experiencing growing pains...or lack there of.

Thanks for bringning up another facet of the story....honest!

------------------
Calgary - August 1, 2004 Fiero Fiesta
1984 Indy Fiero 3.4/3100 Hybrid NA
*ALL THROTTLE AND NO BOTTLE*
http://www.gmpcm.com/ Killer ECM/ PCM tuning software and information

[This message has been edited by donk316 (edited 06-16-2004).]

Dok, I skipped over everything but your first post, because I want a simple question answered...

Were you in the negatives before you posted this? Or did this happen since you posted this thread??

Reason I ask is simple, I have noticed then whenver someone vents an issue they are having, (which in all reality people, it is a PUBLIC FORUM, yes it is about Fiero's, but it is a FORUM nonetheless... soo.... when someone is venting, it should be expected, and because it is also behind a computer screen, it should never be taken as a personal thing. For the most part, when someone is venting (at least when it is a valid point like this) why does everyone get defensive and vote him with negatives?

Like I said, I didnt bother reading this thread, I really don't want to, but I just wanted to know that simple question because I have seen it wayyy to many times in the past. People jumping on the bandwagon to vote poorly on a user just because they have an opinion that doesn't hurt anyone, but differs from their own. It is rediculous, and also goes hand in hand with what Donk posted....

You have some points, I dont think there's anything wrong with someone asking the boards opinions (or permission as you put it) it often generates great input.

I do agree that its kinda stupid that people will pay $50 for a couple of bolts and a piece of steel with holes in it. But thats where we get to laugh at them, I dont buy anything unless its way way out of my ability to fabricate. Same with the Fiero parts vendors.

This is a place for people to come and chit chat, not a buissness meeting. Not everything everyone says has to be useful. But we probably could use a "help me fix this" sections, but that does kinda overlap with the TD&Q.

I dunno you have some controversial statements there, but some good points.

quote Originally posted by naskie18: This forum has a I NEED HELP SECTION, its called TD&Q. It is apparently one of the 5 forums that you missed in your assesment of only having two sections. The forum has one moderator because Cliff doesn't want another moderator. This has been discussed before

I got everything except this statement....There are 7 sections

1. Announcements....ummm yeah my personal fave..hang out there all the time.
2. TD&Q needs to be split up into usable sections.
3. General chat....have no problem with this one.
4. Mall...pretty straight forward
5 Club announcements....waste of space...."dell run" "wheatstock" "fiero fiesta" are everywhere but in there...its locked?! Cliff needs to give permission...sheesh
6. O/T...again...whatever floats your boat
7. Trash can...if this wasnt locked i would have started this there!!

there is only 2 sections where questions can be asked and answered.

------------------
Calgary - August 1, 2004 Fiero Fiesta
1984 Indy Fiero 3.4/3100 Hybrid NA
*ALL THROTTLE AND NO BOTTLE*
http://www.gmpcm.com/ Killer ECM/ PCM tuning software and information

quote Originally posted by donk316: 1. I dont agree. How do the vendors make the community stronger? I bought once form the fiero store when i didnt know any better, 7 years ago. Now i know what to look for and what will work and what wont. I almost get the impression that they prey on the uninitated.

Because without a vendor like TFS (who admittadly is overpriced sometimes) we wouldn't have any of the following products: new aero fascias, new trim moldings, new V6 thermostat housings, new all-steel clutch pedal assemblies, new ash trays, etc.

All of these parts were made possible because some people were willing to pay a little extra to a company who has excellent customer service and is willing to put at least some of thier profits towards [re]producing Fiero-specific items - seeing as how GM has all but abandoned any continued support for the cars (when you go to GM to order some of the above mentioned items... they come from TFS).

quote 2. Are you serious? How much "r&d" goes into 2 pieces of plate metal bent into a C and a bushing bolted between it? I have built everything on my car! 900 dollars for a plate with 2 bolt patterns drilled into it? I wouldnt do this cause i would feel GUILTY charging that much. Hell a friend and I are working on a bolt on dual throttle body plenum for the fiero and we were discussing pricing, I want it AFFORDABLE not to get rich off of. 500 bucks for a manifold is rediculous. Id pay 250 at the most for proven gains.

R&D can be quite expensive when no one has even considered the part before. Yes, some are simple - but not all. Think of all the profitable inventions that are so simple... it's generally a "why didn't I think of that" situation. Also, if you think that a V8 adaptor kit is that simple, you should try to take all the elements into account - also, why has it suddenly become a crime for people to want to start a business they can live on? Shouldn't every one be giving away their stuff for free then? [shakes head]

quote Thats the problem....one person.

Who has successfully run this place for years without anyone else's help. And yet somehow your 15 months here qualifies you to know what's best?

quote 5. Again your missing my point. My intent is not to BASH Cliff. Yes thanks for having a server and leaving it on but times change and the board is experiencing growing pains...or lack there of.

Although your intent may not be to bash Cliff, that's effectively what you're doing here... your insulting his hard work & creation. And if you think running a board with 9000+ members is just as simple as "having a server and leaving it on" - you need to do a bit more research on the cost of webhosting and server maintenence.

And while yes, there may be "growing pains" - you seem to be one of the few who is feeling them most strongly. Many of us who have been around awhile - don't seem to have trouble locating the info we need or tracking the topics we're interested in... heck, one of the reasons I can locate info so quickly is that there's really only a few places to look... if split further (as you desire) it would only make it more difficult for me to find things!

quote Originally posted by donk316: I got everything except this statement....There are 7 sections

You said there were 2 sections. There are seven. Therefore you missed five. How do you not get it?

quote Originally posted by donk316: 1. Announcements....ummm yeah my personal fave..hang out there all the time.

Cliff uses whenever announcing new changes, and gives us a place to comment on whatever it is he's changed and to give our input on it.

quote Originally posted by donk316: 2. TD&Q needs to be split up into usable sections.

Works well to have all the Tech stuff lumped together, not into 15 different sections. Its quite useable, what specifically seems to be the problem you're having with it?

quote Originally posted by donk316:

3. General chat....have no problem with this one.
Ok

quote Originally posted by donk316:

4. Mall...pretty straight forward
Ok

quote Originally posted by donk316:

5 Club announcements....waste of space...."dell run" "wheatstock" "fiero fiesta" are everywhere but in there...its locked?! Cliff needs to give permission...sheesh
It is not locked. You can't create new threads unless you have "Club" status, but you are allowed to post replies to any thread in there.

quote Originally posted by donk316:

6. O/T...again...whatever floats your boat
For discussing things not Fiero related. This forum is a good source of information, be it Fiero related or not. We do like to talk about other things, share our other rides, talk about sports teams or presidents or religion or whatever.

quote Originally posted by donk316:

7. Trash can...if this wasnt locked i would have started this there!!
Its locked specifically so you can't start crap like this there. When a thread reaches the point where its an incredible waste, Cliff moves it to the trash. Thats a subtle hint, you should be able to figure it out.

quote Originally posted by donk316: there is only 2 sections where questions can be asked and answered.

Questions can be asked and answered in all of them, although you only have rights to post new threads in 4.

[EDIT]
I blew the quote tags the first time. Got it now, though
[/EDIT]

Nick

[This message has been edited by naskie18 (edited 06-16-2004).]

quote Originally posted by MinnGreenGT: - also, why has it suddenly become a crime for people to want to start a business they can live on? Shouldn't every one be giving away their stuff for free then? [shakes head]

Affordable isnt free and 400% markup certainly isnt.. Why would your answer include this? im not looking to fight here...

quote Originally posted by MinnGreenGT: Who has successfully run this place for years without anyone else's help. And yet somehow your 15 months here qualifies you to know what's best?

I dont see why how long someones been a member here makes them anymore or less qualified to point out obvious issues with the forum. Dont try and pull rank with me. Its blantantly obvious he needs help. The forum is a mess and I could see how its too much work for one guy, who has a new family and all.

quote Originally posted by MinnGreenGT: Although your intent may not be to bash Cliff, that's effectively what you're doing here... your insulting his hard work & creation. And if you think running a board with 9000+ members is just as simple as "having a server and leaving it on" - you need to do a bit more research on the cost of webhosting and server maintenence. And while yes, there may be "growing pains" - you seem to be one of the few who is feeling them most strongly. Many of us who have been around awhile - don't seem to have trouble locating the info we need or tracking the topics we're interested in... heck, one of the reasons I can locate info so quickly is that there's really only a few places to look... if split further (as you desire) it would only make it more difficult for me to find things!

There are NO insults here! Geez simmer down there. Im not questioning the amount of money or work involved. Thats not the point. Stay on topic. My underlying concerns is that one man cannot effectively admin/mod a forum with 2 usable sections and 9500 members.

------------------
Calgary - August 1, 2004 Fiero Fiesta
1984 Indy Fiero 3.4/3100 Hybrid NA
*ALL THROTTLE AND NO BOTTLE*
http://www.gmpcm.com/ Killer ECM/ PCM tuning software and information

quote Originally posted by donk316: 2. Fiero Vendor a$$ kissers. These people are the ones who dont know how to goto a hardware store or nut and bolt shop to buy some nuts and bolt and would rather buy these so called 'kits' that these vendors have pieced together from their local nut and bolt and sell at a premium.

PLEEZE for me go to your local hardware store and put together some 88 Front hub assemblies for $10.00,
or some $10.00 drop spindles or some new door gaskets, etc; etc;
There is no doubt alot of the stuff out there can be fabricated but in reality very few people are capable
of or have the tools or facilities to make everything they need or would like to have.
Also just throwing something to gather with a few nuts and bolts may not be road worthy
or safe without a little R&D depending on what it is.

But all said and done once again Thanks for letting us know your opinions.

[This message has been edited by Zoom88 (edited 06-16-2004).]

quote Originally posted by donk316: Affordable isnt free and 400% markup certainly isnt.. Why would your answer include this? im not looking to fight here...

But maybe this 400% markup is reasonable based on the part being produced, the expected sales volume, and the profit necessary to maintain a business (which includes overhead as well as basic costs). I don't see how you can dictate what someone feels is reasonable for their "profit" level. The reason I mentioned this was that a very similar discussion occured recently in relation to Decah's VDC kit... https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/041945-2.html and you had complained about the pricing of vendors. 'nuf said I guess.

quote I dont see why how long someones been a member here makes them anymore or less qualified to point out obvious issues with the forum. Dont try and pull rank with me. Its blantantly obvious he needs help. The forum is a mess and I could see how its too much work for one guy, who has a new family and all.

Please re-read my post on this... I wasn't even attempting to pull "rank" on you ...I was pointing out that Cliff has been doing this for years without any trouble... why start now? And I don't see this "obvious need" that you speak of... I can find everything I need quite easily - and as mentioned splitting the forum would only make that more difficult in the long run (imagine having to search the archives of 15 different sections, as well as the matching 15 current sections).

quote There are NO insults here! Geez simmer down there. Im not questioning the amount of money or work involved. Thats not the point. Stay on topic. My underlying concerns is that one man cannot effectively admin/mod a forum with 2 usable sections and 9500 members.

About this insults... this is what I was attempting to explain. Although you may not be directly insulting Cliff - you're degrading his hard work with your negative posts about how the forum is run... did you happen to catch Cliff's reaction to Fiero5 ripping on how the "forum has turned bad" comments? It comes down to the fact that this is his place, and if someone doesn't like the way it's being run... then they're free to move on to whatever they'd like!

As for one person running the forum - you're basically thinking up all these things that are so terribly managed... when it's been proven, through time, that there is not problem. If it ain't broke - don't fix it (and this place certainly isn't broken!)

I agree with some of that stuff, but in response to number 4:

I'm pretty much new with cars and I'm learning. Sometimes I ask stupid questions that may seem obvious who have been working with cars for years now, but to me I have no idea... so I ask. However, before I ask a question, I ALWAYS do a search. I try to eliminate creating repetitive or junk threads. Some of my replies in posts are useless, I'll admit to that, but its usually encouragement or compliments and when you think about it, its not really useless, its support for fellow members. I post whatever I feel like on here (in relation to fieros) because thats the whole point of the board, to communicate. I also try to help whenever I can, which usually isn't too often (unless its photoshop) because, again, I'm learning. And I can't express how grateful I am for those who have the patience for me and teach me because I've learnt a lot more than I ever would have just looking stuff up and researching on the net. This is a lot more efficient.

If we had a, "IM NEW AND NEED HELP," there would be a million unanswered questions because only new people would browse that area, and people who regularily enjoy helping others. Nothing would get done.

So I'm not sure whether or not I'm one of the people you're annoyed with, but I don't plan on changing much, other than being more helpful whenever I can. Thats all I have to say...

------------------
1986 Fiero SE

quote Originally posted by donk316: My intent is not to BASH Cliff. Yes thanks for having a server and leaving it on

Holy crap! You truly think that's all it takes to run something like this?

As I've said before in a few other threads, I really are starting to get really tired of people who think the forum is going down while it's not. Again, 99.99% of the posts here are very informative, no flamewars, and overal in good spirit. There's no such thing here as "growing pains", unless if you count that because of the ever growing number of members, there are always at least a few members that can't be satisfied. Yes, that comes with growth.

Second, funny you bring that up. It wasn't me who banned Shaun. It were the members. And if he is such a nice guy, and you are in contact with him, tell him to quit signing up my name at pr)n-sites and other membership sites. Fortunately most of these sites keep a record of the ip-address doing the registration, and most of them came from him (verified by the ISP). Also, he still gets on here every now and then using different usernames. And guess what? All of them have been banned so far. Not because people knew (or even suspected) it was him, but because of his attitude. I can give you numerous examples of how he treated other members (honestly, if he came here and said the same things about my daughter as he said about some other's here, I would buy a plane ticket to Florida the next day to personally rip his head off - I'm not kidding).

So really, you're not here to bash me or the forum, yet you mention another forum and someone who's been trying to mess with me and this forum for years now, as "someone very helpful". So forgive me when I say: "I'm not buying it".

Besides, the main reason knowledgeable people have left in the past was because of people like him. Not because of some sort of problem with the forum.

Yes, this is a family forum, not some kind of l33t site where you can use avatars of your favorite anime character, or post all the nekkid women you want. Yes, 99% of the members here don't use the "N" word because it's hip and do get offended by people who do. Yes, the average age here is well over 18. Yes, most members here still write "You" and "for" instead of "U" and "4". Yes, most members here appricate it if you treat them or anyone else with respect and will tell you immediately when you don't. Problem is, some people consider that signs of a bad and boring forum. I consider that a sign of a mature audience.

Now that has nothing to do with people not "having the ball bearings to agree with you". Has it ever occured to you that maybe, just maybe, members here don't agree with you? I certainly don't. And I'm not afraid to say it out loud. And the reason I dare to say it out loud is because I believe you have to give the people on here more credit than to think they blindly follow my lead. They don't. Maybe they simply agree with the way this forum is run. Maybe most members here don't have a problem with the forum or its format or the way it's moderated/administrated. Just a thought. What you don't seem to realize is that almost everything on this forum, the way it looks, the way the sections are divided, the way it's moderated, the rating system, the PM system, the image posting, etc, has been formed/suggested by the members. The only thing I do is listen to the majority, and not to the unhappy few. Because simply put, you can't please everyone. If tomorrow the majority wants more sections, there will be more sections. If tomorrow the majority wants different colors, there will be different colors. If tomorrow the majority wants the rating system gone, it will be gone. It's a simple as that.

So in short, this forum is shaped completely to what the majority wanted. And again, you can't please everyone so there will always be people who think it sucks. Well, that's their right. But to confuse their thoughts with reality is, well, unrealistic.

Just my 2c (and a bit more I guess).

Cliff has always said the forum is self-moderating, and IMHO, that seems to work pretty well. Not perfect, but then again, having multiple moderators wouldn't be perfect either. People would spend time complaining about this mod or that mod.

This forum is like any other group of people. Sometimes personalities flare, and things are said that shouldn't be. Some are more popular than others. Some who have a lot of knowledge are very irritating about the way they present things (Shaun, for one).

As for Fiero vendors, I don't see your gripe. They are a small group of vendors, selling to what is an ever-shrinking base of owners. Sure, some things are overpriced. But in many cases they have parts no one else does. Again, it's like everything else in life. Do your homework, compare prices before you buy, and go with the best deal. Do I always buy from TFS? No, but their customer service is top notch, and I'd rather pay a premium for some things versus not being able to buy it at all.

Ok here is my take on a few of your points.

quote posted by donk: 2. Fiero Vendor a$$ kissers. These people are the ones who dont know how to goto a hardware store or nut and bolt shop to buy some nuts and bolt and would rather buy these so called 'kits' that these vendors have pieced together from their local nut and bolt and sell at a premium.

This is not smooching anyone's rear. I do not have the time to be running around making up my own parts "kits." The Fiero vendors are offering a service and because of this service I am willing to pay a premium. I have a family and they are my number one priority of my free time. Running to the store or junk yard are not a high priority. I log on, I buy, they bring to me. Worth it to me.

quote posted by donk: 3. Fiero Parts Vendors who feel the need to overcharge for the simpliest items. 250 bucks for motor mounts? 2500 for adaptor kits? 100 bucks for SS vacuum lines?

Isn't America wonderful! (Canada in your case) It's a free market system, run by supply & demand. We pay $1.25 for a bottle of water when we can just turn on our tap. Again people do not always have the talents or resources to produce thier own. Sometimes it just the convenience factor.

quote posted by donk: 4. I feel only a small portion of the actual members here have anything worth saying and the board, as it is set up now with only 2 sections and ONE moderator, their posts get lost sooo fast in the truly mundane posts such as "what does a rear sway bar do?" "whats wrong with my car" " my lights dont work" or the ever popular "im going to mass produce these awesome products for cheap, what do you think?" threads that allways die a horrible death on page 10. THIS FORUM NEEDS A "IM NEW AND I NEED HELP" SECTION.

Not everyone is technically gifted. Some of us are here to learn or just have some fun in our free time.

I would like to add that without this forum I never would have tried to work on my car at all. I would like to again personally thank Cliff for this Forum. Nothing in life is perfect, but usually it is what you make of it. DONATE TO PFF!!!!!

p.s. - I did not rate you negative for this thread, it is only your opinion.

quote Originally posted by donk316: My problems with the TD&Q have been stated before in other posts by myself and others..no need to drudge that up https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/051603.html https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/050451.html https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/035402.html

First, no need to drudge it up but you do anyway? If there was no need to drudge it up than why did you bother giving me the links?

Second, why doesn't a question on bolt sizes belong in Tech? Why shouldn't I ask in Tech if I can't get my car to start? Maybe I don't know enough to listen for the fuel pump to come on, or don't know how to make sure its getting spark. Why in the world shouldn't these questions be in the same area as people talking about engine swaps?

Because a thread gets pushed to the second page in 4 hours? There are nifty little indicators that use cookies to show you new posts since your last login. If all the the posts on the first page are unread, and you've looked through all the ones you wanted to read, go to the next page. If all the post indicators on there are showing them as being unread and you've looked at/posted in all the ones you want to, go to the next page. Repeat cycle until you get to the point where the post indicators are showing that there aren't new posts in those threads. So you have to go back 4 pages if you stay away for a while. If you rearranged it and broke it down more, you'd only have to go back 2 pages, but you'd have to do that in more than one forum. Its not saving you any time, it makes it much easier to figure out where threads belong when starting them, and it makes it much easier for people to find threads if they have to go searching for them later.

I just don't see how a broken down system like you're proposing is better than our current system, and thats not even taking into account the amount of work that would have to be done to create the new sections and break down the current section to get everything where it belongs. I have been a member on various other forums that break things down eight ways to tuesday, and its rediculous. Sections overlap, some things there aren't sections for, and its a royal PITA to find old threads if you have to search the forum by section.

Nick

Well another person who doesnt realize how good WE'VE got it. This car was produced for 4 yrs, THATS IT. Most people wouldnt waste thier time to make aftermarket parts for a car that was made for about a blink of an eye in the automotive world. Yeah you can make your own stuff, well good for you. I have 2 kids, toddlers by the way, a dog, a house, and a wife, and a job IM ALWAYS AT. So most of us love the point a click ordering from the FIERO STORE. Most of us have way too busy lives to research and develop, and to LEARN how to do this and that.
Its overpriced? So what, if you cant afford it dont bash it, get a better job. Maybe you wont have such a overpriced issue. Yeah we all apprieciate your honesty, but its misplaced. Alot of people have or had good advice(shaun) but its the way its presented. Hitler had great ideas look how he turned out. Repsect is the most important thing on here. RESPECT ME I"LL RESPECT YOU. Maybe thats why certain people always get banned.
I agree with if you say a certain thing the majority gets you banned. Thats LIFE.....I cant run around my work and say how I feel, I'll get fired. I cant go in town and do things to piss my neighbors off, the cops will show up. This FORUM is not a place where people can come and do and say as they please. Alot of people forget that. Its a community, and if you dont know the rules of a community then maybe you shouldnt be here anymore.
You say you're not bashing Cliff, if you re-read your post I think you will see you are. How would you like it if someone came into your house(if you have one) that YOU built and start telling you how bad its gotten and what you could do better to improve it. EVEN though there is nothing wrong with the way YOU want your house.
think about that for a moment.
Like I said I love your honesty...thats rare these days. I have never given you a negative for your info. I dont believe in following the crowd.
I hope you stick around even though this place is such a HORRIBLE place to be.
Later and Good Luck

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: Second, funny you bring that up. It wasn't me who banned Shaun. It were the members. And if he is such a nice guy, and you are in contact with him, tell him to quit signing up my name at pr)n-sites and other membership sites. Fortunately most of these sites keep a record of the ip-address doing the registration, and most of them came from him (verified by the ISP).

quote Unfortunately, Shaun3.1415926 is no longer with us. The stupid old frack I am, I banned his a$$.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000003/HTML/20030204-6-011111.html

Shuan also says he doesn't sign you up for XXX sites. . . but likes the idea.

[This message has been edited by Howard_Sacks (edited 06-16-2004).]

In respose to the first post, where do you fit in?

Oh, I noticed that you have great little classifications for all kinds of people, except of course-yourself.

I think people on this board tend to read a little too much into it. It is an internet forum. It is not, and should not be construed as the end all and be all location for anyone that owns a Fiero. It is a resource like any other. What I'm saying is that some people need to turn off the computers once and awhile. Go join the human race and experience conversation. Then, turn on the computer again.

Other forums don't have half the posts devoted to"This person was mean to me", "I hate X Car vendors" "My car is the fastest I swear and all those that diagree are buttholes" "This forum doesn't have enough hugging" "I want Pixies!" Most people on the internet that are a regular member of a forum can take it with a grain of salt. Its like a cable channel. When a show comes on you don't like-hey, switch it off for awhile.

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: Yes, this is a family forum, not some kind of l33t site where you can use avatars of your favorite anime character, or post all the nekkid women you want. Yes, 99% of the members here don't use the "N" word because it's hip and do get offended by people who do. Yes, the average age here is well over 18. Yes, most members here still write "You" and "for" instead of "U" and "4". Yes, most members here appricate it if you treat them or anyone else with respect and will tell you immediately when you don't. Problem is, some people consider that signs of a bad and boring forum. I consider that a sign of a mature audience.

Very well put.........and appreciated.

I am a new member and not a day goes by that I don't open up PFF and read every excellent and not so excellent post on the board. 2 comments I would like to make, the 1st is that I sometimes get the impression that new members are somewhat ignored or that they have to go through some sort of initiation procces before being REALLY accepted into the family. (maybe it is my imagination) 2nd is that as a newcomer and not knowing a lot, as yet about my car I have been in contact with TFS and what a fantastic bunch they are. Mark in particular has been incredibly patient and helpful and I would not hesitate to shop there again.
I am 55yrs old and I fell in love with my car at first sight, it is like I found my REAL project at last, without PFF I would still be wallowing around in the dark.
Cliff you do a fantastic job and all you guys out there who post I find all the subjects really interesting.Thanks to you all

On the issue of parts and prices, do you have any idea what it takes to have something manufactured? There is R&D time, setup costs, minimum charges, etc. It's called economies of scale. If a vendor thinks they can only sell a 100 or so items, they sure aren't going to run 1000. But the development costs are the same.

For example, let's say Archie wants to make a new adaptor. He knows it will take hundreds of hours of development, a machine shop will need to set up and produce them, and he knows he can sell, say, 100 total. If the development of that part costs $5000, whether you make 1 or 100, divide $5000 by how many you think you might sell. At 100, that's $50 each. If you can sell 1000, the R&D bill comes to $5 each. Can you think of *any* Fiero part that you could sell 1000 of? Do you think that vendors should only sell the part for the cost of the metal it's made of? Do you know *anything* about business? Judging by your comments, I doubt it.

Also, we're talking about a car that only had a run of between 325-350,000, and the last one was made 16 years ago. This is not only a small market, it's a diminishing market. Every day, Fieros get crushed. It's a damn miracle that any vendors even bother to make stuff for the Fiero. We are indeed fortunate. Let's all remember that when looking at the price of something, whether it be from Archie, Rodney or the Fiero Store. I'll bet each one of these guys could do a lot better selling Camaro or Corvette parts.

[This message has been edited by fierobear (edited 06-16-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: Shuan also says he doesn't sign you up for XXX sites. . . but likes the idea.

Of course he does. What would you expect?

I'm not going into a big tirade. MinnGreen has pretty much said the same things I would have, so I'll just agree with him.
So, donk316, I don't agree with you. If you love guys like Shaun and hate how this forum is run, then I suggest you hang out with Shaun on forums he's on.

quote Originally posted by dodger48nz: I am a new member and .................

Welcome to the group

------------------
Jim
www.jkfiero.com

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000003/HTML/20030204-6-011111.html Shuan also says he doesn't sign you up for XXX sites. . . but likes the idea.

Your point is clear, Howard, but I would encourage people to read that entire thread you linked instead of just that one post. Cliff wasn't being a dick, the guy had it coming. The quote you pulled out of there makes it sound a lot worse than it was.

I was of the impression that his forum was a technical resource as well as a social one. Were it not for this forum, I probably would not even own a Fiero, much less be involved in a V-8 swap. While I am hardly a "popular" member of this forum, people still help me and ask for nothing in return. They seem to show a genuine interest in my projects, regardless of how minor or major. This motivates me and makes me feel like a member of the Fiero community, as it were, even though I have never met a soul who posts to this forum.

Do I think some people here are jerks? Yep. Do I think some people here are "post-whores" screaming for attention? Yep. Do some people who post here know less about cars than brain surgery? Yep. Are some people here completely full of $hite? Yep. That said, I run into those same types every day of my life outside Pennock's Fine Fiero Forum. Every "problem" you stated that you have with this forum surely exists outside of it as well. This is not some social/technical utopia where everyone and everything is perfect. I'm glad because I sure as hell wouldn't fit in if it was.

I don't know what world you live in but in my world people are imperfect, and I love 'em for it. Same goes for Pennock's. Keep up the good work, Cliff and crew.

Well this isnt going very well... Cant anyone just state a few opinions and discuss them as opposed to calling me a "shaun lover" lmao! thats funny. After readin that link posted by Howard....it explains alot about the mentality behind the workings here and some old timers.

I remember when I first joined I had a chat with a member who warned me about this place being "clicky band wagon jumpers so dont post anything that isnt fiero related or youll get lynched"

Cmon folks, we can talk about things here. I feel the forum is undermoderated and a "posting mess" The folks who say "im gonnal eave if it changes" should be ashamed to admit their ignorance in "public"

Oh and for the record! Im 28, Married, 2 kids, mortgages (more than one), 2 fieros and I work in the oilfield. Oh and I know which end of a ratchet does the work.

------------------
Calgary - August 1, 2004 Fiero Fiesta
1984 Indy Fiero 3.4/3100 Hybrid NA
*ALL THROTTLE AND NO BOTTLE*
http://www.gmpcm.com/ Killer ECM/ PCM tuning software and information

[This message has been edited by donk316 (edited 06-16-2004).]

quote Originally posted by dodger48nz: the 1st is that I sometimes get the impression that new members are somewhat ignored or that they have to go through some sort of initiation procces before being REALLY accepted into the family. (maybe it is my imagination)

its not your imagination. i see it too, not always but i do see it. and it sorta happened to me. the remedy i found is to post as much as possible for a while

As the admin of the saskatoon fiero forum I dont tolerate abusive posts. They get deleted along with the guy that posted it. Grow up.

------------------
85 GT 4 speed 2.8L auto X'er

www.freewebs.com/saskatoonfieros/

[This message has been edited by red85gt (edited 06-16-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000003/HTML/20030204-6-011111.html Shuan also says he doesn't sign you up for XXX sites. . . but likes the idea.

[Edit:]

(Never mind, not even worth the keystrokes).

quote Originally posted by donk316: Oh and for the record! Im 28, Married, 2 kids, mortgages (more than one), 2 fieros and I work in the oilfield. Oh and I know which end of a ratchet does the work.

What you've stated is not a measure of intelligence. You've stated your opinions / have asked for responses, so it shouldn't upset you that not everyone is going to agree with you. This famous Quote is fitting for this thread:

"You are young, my son, and, as the years go by, time will change and even reverse many of your present opinions. Refrain therefore awhile from setting yourself up as a Judge of the highest matters."

------------------

0 to 75 Audio http://www.cartsys.com/fiero/cal-engine.wav

quote Originally posted by donk316: Well this isnt going very well...

Why, because people aren't agreeing with you?

Why is it that those with lots of red always feel the forum is broken, or that they're persecuted for speaking their mind?