They say to learn from the mistakes of others, because you can't live long enough to make them all yourself... So, for those of you who are considering doing an engine swap, or are in the middle of one... this is for you. Those who have finished a swap, feel free to add to the list at any time.

Here are some things I've learned along the way to a running car:

1) The little crap adds up.
I originally had a written budget months in advance before I even got any of my parts together. This is very important to help you decide what swap you want to do, and help you anticipate the size of the hole in your wallet, and to ease the pain of it. I wrote down everything I thought I would need, from Air filters to Zero gauge welding wire. (Okay, I used 2 gauge, but I couldn't think of anything that started with Z) I think I originally planned on $500 of "miscellaneous" stuff. Boy I was wrong While I don’t have the actual figure (too scared to add receipts), I think that it ballooned to $1500+. Things like hose clamps, wire ties, split loom tubing, screws, new gaskets if you take your engine apart (this was a BIG one for me, stupid gaskets), oil, you name it. Moral of the story: you can’t plan for everything, so better quintuple your budget… just in case.

2) You can use Teflon tape on your sensors.
This was a new one for me. I read somewhere you don’t want to, because they need a ground (oil pressure sender comes to mind). Anyways, leaks everywhere if you don’t use some type of sealer. I’ll be taking my plumbing apart to put some paste on everything. Moral of the story: Don’t believe everything you read.

3) Make sure everything fits.
This may seem like a “duh!” moment, but here’s what I did. I trial fit the cradle with the engine on it into the bay probably half a dozen times. Every time I needed to move something here, or grind there. Well, everything fit fine until it was time to mount the cradle. (Actually, I didn’t notice until later, so I thought everything DID fit fine) Apparently, every time I had test fit the engine, there were no accessories (I was waiting for just about everything at the time). Well, when the engine went in for the final time, it had all the accessories on, and the alternator no longer fit. What happened was the alternator got wedged up in between the firewall and the engine, and when the cradle was bolted up, it cracked the fan on it, and wasn’t allowing the engine to start. Well, I had to drop the cradle and kill er… I mean grind the firewall for about ¼” clearance. Moral of the story: If it fits perfectly, you’d better try again, because something is wrong.

4) Get a job.
Related to #1, you’re going to need to start saving now. You may think you have enough money to do it, but you don’t, you’re just lying to yourself. You just want a 3/4 finished project that “only needs” $2000 more to get it running. It’s a lot easier to justify a $2000 add-on when the car is staring sappily back at you, than at the beginning. Moral of the story: Get a job now. Already have one? Get another. Trust me, you’ll thank me later.

I hope you’ve enjoyed my crazy rantings… If I can save one person from doing something stupid… I’ve done my job.

good story - now what engine did you swap again?I plan to make a cardoard mockup of the engine bay shape before dropping the craddle - this way i can do the preliminary testfitting without putting it back in the car

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: 2) You can use Teflon tape on your sensors. This was a new one for me. I read somewhere you don’t want to, because they need a ground (oil pressure sender comes to mind). Anyways, leaks everywhere if you don’t use some type of sealer. I’ll be taking my plumbing apart to put some paste on everything. Moral of the story: Don’t believe everything you read.

All good information, but I must take issue with the teflon tape thing.
In many cases, teflon tape will inhibit the sensor from getting a ground through the engine.
The solution is to use pipe joint compound, such as a plumber might use. That should prevent any leaks from happening.

But you're right about the cost of "extras".
I bought a rebuilt 3.4, and installed it myself. By the time I paid for all the miscellaneous junk that I needed to complete the installation, I could have probably paid the folks at the Fiero Factory to go ahead and install it. Probably wouldn't have cost much more.

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Raydar
88 3.4 coupe...........

Coming soon...
88 Formula, presently under the knife.
Read Nealz Nuze!

Good advice. I have found the same thing with my 4.9 and 3.4dohc swaps. They are never as cheap as people make it out to be. An installed running 4.9 for $1000 is a load of crap! I had $2500 into that project without having the motor in the car yet. I did alot more work to that engine than I had to such as new gaskets, waterpump, timing chain etc but it made me feel better about the engine I was installing. Then I sold it at a huge loss Had an LT1, sold it before I spent to much money on it. Now I have my 3.4 and its getting test fitted as we speak. I don't think I'm going to sell this one, better stick to my projects before I run myself into the ground!

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Hey Ryan, thanks for all the tips! I haven't done a swap but I'll have to the day my Duke dies! + to you for helping us all out...

Were you there last weekend at the MOA gathering?

I see good information in your experience. I have seen too many threads on wanting to do swaps for $500. From my experiences, it takes longer and costs more than you anticipate. Please spread the word on unexpected swap costs and how expensive it really is.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: All good information, but I must take issue with the teflon tape thing. In many cases, teflon tape will inhibit the sensor from getting a ground through the engine. The solution is to use pipe joint compound, such as a plumber might use. That should prevent any leaks from happening.

From another thread I started, most everyone said it would be fine if you used just "one turn" of the tape. I still kinda don't like that idea, which is why I'm going with the paste (that specifically SAYS it's okay for oil.)

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: From another thread I started, most everyone said it would be fine if you used just "one turn" of the tape. I still kinda don't like that idea, which is why I'm going with the paste (that specifically SAYS it's okay for oil.)

Teflon tape is just fine if you do not allow it to go over the end of the sensor, you do not want little lieces to float up into your sender.

I know that it is a common thing to tell everyone not to use it, but is does work if you are carefull. The stuff shreads apart on install (that is how it fills the "voids") and there will be plenty of area to make ground contact.Test it sometime and then remove the part and look at the threads, there will be metal showing through all over the place. If you are at all worried though just use teflon paste, it does not seal near as well but does work too.

5) Sometimes a FREE 350 engine 90 miles away isn't worth pulling in 5 degree weather

(What did you ever do with it Ryan? You're going with a Northstar swap now aren't you?

quote Originally posted by aceman: 5) Sometimes a FREE 350 engine 90 miles away isn't worth pulling in 5 degree weather (What did you ever do with it Ryan? You're going with a Northstar swap now aren't you?

haha! Thanks, forgot about that one! I ended up ebaying it. It went for $60 which almost covered the gas it took to get there and back twice in that rental van (another $50 a day x2)... Then there was the rental engine hoist... I think this all goes back to #1 above

Yep, my northstar should be on the road in the next few weeks. Still have lots of minor bugs to sort out. (Money being one of them )

oh, forgot to mention - the guy that bought the engine ended up driving 8 hours to get here to pick it up... Something about that engine, I'm tellin ya...

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 08-19-2004).]

Agree on cost. I had to buy virtually everything I needed like tools, stuff you end up not needing but need to 'try' to see if it will work, yada yada...
Just ran the total (I do keep track of it all) and it's like $7100, yes that is SEVEN THOUSAND BUCKS and it's not even running yet !

Could I have done it for less? Probably but not by that much. Could I have gotten someone to do it for me for less? Yes, but where's the fun in that (well at least I think I am having fun).

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Dave E

www.ltlfrari.com
Visit the NC Fieros website at TarheelFieros.org

to date I have about 1,200 in parts for my 4.9 swap not uncluding the engine, harnes and computer.

Much of this is parts that I wanted to add to the project however.

quote Originally posted by Electrathon: I do think your post was good information. I am always amazed when someone posts that their car blew the engine and they do not have $1500 to replace it and people come back telling them to replace it with a 3.4 for $500 and it is an easy install for someone that has never pulled and enging in their life. The little details are far more important and difficult than most people realize.

I swapped a 3.4 for 400$ in engine and 50$ in engine degreaser, paint, and header wrap.. was my first swap necessitated by the 2.8 throwing a rod.. it was my first time taking apart an engine. and i did it in a weekend..

but i'm not everybody

[This message has been edited by Kohburn (edited 08-19-2004).]

quote Originally posted by ltlfrari: Agree on cost. I had to buy virtually everything I needed like tools, stuff you end up not needing but need to 'try' to see if it will work, yada yada...

Don't even start me on tools! I ended up buying a double flare kit ($50!!!) and didn't even use it. Tubing cutter came quite in handy though. Other crap like the $8 axle nut socket (times 2... one for the fiero, one for the caddy). Raaaaaa!

My 4.9 project is somewhere in the $2500 range and I still need a water pump, rear wheel hub bearing assembly and hey a nice paint job would be great too!

6) An impact wrench is your friend! In a pinch, a nice long, strong pry bar will work too.

I have about 12 to 1300 in my engine swap including the trans

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On the Teflon Tape issue just don't run it all the way to the top. Where the sensor enlarges to Bottom out don't teflon that part so That part makes the ground. This way if you put too much Tape on like many do you still get the good ground you need at the top of the threads.

the swap in my car coulda been tuition for 2 and a half years of college . but i guess now i can get to the college a helluvalot faster!
-guess this only applies in canada, but one thing that helps me out is the "loan a tool" program by canadian tire. you put a deposit down to bring the tool home, return it when you're done and get your whole deposit back, and they've got almost any tool you need in this program.....cause whoever said tools get expensive is speaking the truth

[This message has been edited by LITEDAZE (edited 08-20-2004).]

Teflon tape is good never had 1 leak after install and never had a sensor problam.
i think I have changed them all with it and it's gota be in the 100's

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: 6) An impact wrench is your friend! In a pinch, a nice long, strong pry bar will work too.

part of my toolchhest is a 12" long steel pipe that slips over my wratchet and then a 14" rod that slips into that if i really need some leverage

I'll join in as being over budget on my V-8 swap. It was just to hard to reinstall 17 year old parts that I hadn't figured in changing out at the start of the swap. So over budget, way past completion date = everything new and one happy V-8 owner. Still don't have the nerve to sit down and add it all up.
Thanks Gary

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Well, when the engine went in for the final time, it had all the accessories on, and the alternator no longer fit. What happened was the alternator got wedged up in between the firewall and the engine, and when the cradle was bolted up, it cracked the fan on it, and wasn’t allowing the engine to start. Well, I had to drop the cradle and kill er… I mean grind the firewall for about ¼” clearance. Moral of the story: If it fits perfectly, you’d better try again, because something is wrong.

I have about 3/8-1/2 inch of clearance between my firewall and alternator. How did you mount your engine?

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'87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above

Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future

Even though I got my 4.9 relatively cheap and ready to go in (thanks crazyone), I still ended up dumping a fair amount into it afterwards as well - and time spent...well we will not go there, as that is way up there as well. As stated, sometimes it would be cheaper to have someone do it for you - but then there is no satisfaction (and cursing) of doing it yourself

Tim

quote Originally posted by Will: I have about 3/8-1/2 inch of clearance between my firewall and alternator. How did you mount your engine?

I think it has to do with his alternator choice. I built his cradle and mounts. we test fit an engine in a car befor he picked it up just to make sure it fit. we had the newer 2001 alt on the engine, which is alot smaller than a 94-95 alt.

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Signature courtesy of MinnGreen.

As an update,
if you are thinking of doing an engine swap perhaps you should seek some professional counseling instead. --because before you are finished you will need it anyway. So save yourself a bunch of money and headache and just go to the couselor first.

About the teflon on sensors versus a good ground,,,, I believe most of the information sensors with 2 wires or more include one of those wires as a dedicated ground to the ECM circuit in question. "Sort of like the speaker system..you don't common ground the negative to the metal chasis. It goes back to the radio as a dedicated grd to that channel only.

Anyway,, the sensors carry a low voltage and require a dedicated grd for accuracy. The sensors with 1 wire like the "OH-TWO" sensor do need a chasis ground and there is a special sealing compound for that purpose, maybe "anti-seize" that will not interfere with a good ground. Teflon on this sensor cause a less than perfect grd and cause idle hunts, etc.

Just my 2 cents & maybe a little extra..

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[This message has been edited by Spoon (edited 08-24-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Fiero STS: I think it has to do with his alternator choice. I built his cradle and mounts. we test fit an engine in a car befor he picked it up just to make sure it fit. we had the newer 2001 alt on the engine, which is alot smaller than a 94-95 alt.

I'm using a '95 alternator.

I had about $3k into my TDC swap, then sold the whole car for $4300. I could do that swap cheaper and MUCH quicker now but how else do you learn right. How much does everyone have in their Northstar swap?

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Alan Frazier
'86 GT-'92 3.4 TDC 5 speed(sold)
'84 2m4 project car

quote Originally posted by neverendingproject: I had about $3k into my TDC swap, then sold the whole car for $4300. I could do that swap cheaper and MUCH quicker now but how else do you learn right. How much does everyone have in their Northstar swap?

I am up to about $1900, but I have to get a 5 speed tranny since I had a 4 speed, and the motor is about to be put in if I ever get a flywheel
$1100 for the motor, wiring harness, ECM
$500 for the Getrag
$200 for the shifter and cables
About $200 so far for mis. bolts and odds and ends
Will be $350ish for the flywheel
$300 for the clutch

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Bobby from NW Indiana
86 Fiero GT, 93 Northstar and 5 speed Getrag
thespeedshop@sbcglobal.net
My build thread
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/048624.html

quote Originally posted by Will: I'm using a '95 alternator.

You are also using a getrag trans so the mounting is alittle different.

Spoon got it right... the only sensors that ground themselves to block are one wire sensors. Your 3 wire sensors have power/ground/signal return... tape them lightly, don't overtorque.

quote Originally posted by Fiero STS: You are also using a getrag trans so the mounting is alittle different.

How much different is it? My crank centerline is right where the 2.8's was. Do you guys with 4T80E's move the engine forward? Doesn't that put the inner CV joints forward of where they should be?

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'87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above

Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future