I've been thinking about how I can upgrade the interior look and was thinking of possibility of a dash swap. I was thinking of the Firebird dash, the only info I can find on it was this one.
I dont' recall which member here I found this from, at the bottom of his signature & saved it. I'm was wondering how many people have done this and pictures are GREATLY appreciated. I'm thinking Firebird dash but a custom one........kinda double customing going on lol.
I have a question about heat/ac though, I don't have the AC hooked up & don't plan too but the heat works. I was thinking of molding over the center vents since i don't like the look much and is there anyway to just have "vent" for when the windows get foggy, and "fan" just to blow in regular air?? Well like I said, pictures greatly appreciated and also roughly how much for the required parts(dash, console, door skins etc) Thx.
IP: Logged
02:40 AM
PFF
System Bot
Bobert Member
Posts: 371 From: Toronto, Canada Registered: Jan 2002
Welcome to the F-troop. To answer your question about the environmental controls, the easiest thing to do is to leave the Fiero stock control panel and just mount it into the F-dash. You can use the stock defroster vent but you'll need to insall some kind of dash extension to cover the gap between the F-dash and the Fiero windshield. Some have used the F-dash extension by cutting it to folow the contour of the Fiero windshield or, you can make your own out of fiberglass (which is what I did). In order get the side vents to work, you'll need to do a little more work. I cut the Fiero air box down and installed some flexible hose to route the air to the side vents. There is lots of detailed information in the link listed in my signiture that should give you a good idea of the amount of work involved.
Yes, that is my web page that you found. AFAIK, MrFixit58 and I were the first to do the firebird dash, (although I hear rumors of others).
Anyway, I don't normally like to talk about what I'm planning to do, but I am about to start on my second one for my Chop top. My plan is to focus on making it as easy as possible and step one is I am going to make a plug and play harness for the gauges. This alone will save me all the trouble I went through soldering to the individual pins of the old gauges.
The other challenge is the environmental controls and air distribution. I have some new ideas there too, but I don't want to reveal my plan until I can demontrate that it will work. Mechanically mounting the dash is the easy part, by the way.
Here are a couple of photos of mine in the GT...Stay tuned for more details.
I love the way the Firebird dash looks in the Fiero. I'd be interested in a plug-n-play harness too. I'm slowly getting my interior parts as I get the money.
------------------ 84 transformed into an 86 GT 88 Formula
IP: Logged
04:53 PM
Racer_JT Member
Posts: 1419 From: Lynchburg, Virginia, USA Registered: Apr 2002
Here is the deal on the plug-n-play harness. I started working on it, but there are a couple of catches. If you know how the Fiero gauges plug in they plug into the back of the molded gauge body itself.
There is no real connector. I could fabricate something but the easiest solution is to canabalize the fiero cluster. That is because I need the speedometer board anyway. It has the divide by two cicuit that I need to feed the ECM.
The 88 Speedometer is preferred because it has the "M" pin which outputs 4000 pulse per mile that was originally intended to drive the electro-hydraulic power steering. It is perfect for driving the Firebird speedometer, (which runs on 4000 ppm). Since I don't have a huge supply of clusters, (and certainly not 88 clusters) I would have to charge a core charge, (which you could get back if you wanted to exchange your old cluster after the swap.)
Lastly I need to build up a supply of Firebird connectors, (which I don't presently have).
So which all those facts, what is the market willing to pay for a harness that would plug into the fiero wires and the firebird gauge with no cutting required?
- Jonathan
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 11-24-2004).]
Sounds awesome Jscott!!!! I have a lot of plans I would do here & there......I love the links & saved them. That pop up LCD idea is cool. Thx for the links I appreciate it.
IP: Logged
01:06 AM
Racer_JT Member
Posts: 1419 From: Lynchburg, Virginia, USA Registered: Apr 2002
What if people who want this done sent you the speedo and firebird connecters up front? How long would it take for you to turn them around? Price?
Well, if somebody sent me a Fiero speedometer and a Firebird connector I should be able to turn that around fairly quickly, say in a couple of weeks. Realizing that like most of us I only get to work on fun stuff in my spare time, (what litlle I have).
As for price, no one would probably want to pay what it would really cost me in terms of time. I expect to have the prototype built by this weekend. After I see how many hours it takes I'll have a better idea what the price should be.
IP: Logged
11:46 AM
Racer_JT Member
Posts: 1419 From: Lynchburg, Virginia, USA Registered: Apr 2002
Will you be able to do the entire harness for the swap?
I've been pondering what to do with my interior and have decided that this is the best way to go. You know that old country song about the different caddys being build. Like "it was a 54, 55, 56 ,57, 58 ,59 cadillac deville" sometimes I feel like thats a pre-fiero song. I have an 86 Fiero GT with 93 Cadillac motor, 94 Lumina transmission, 89 6000 axle, 91 Grand am brakes, 85 Blazer master cylinder, 90's Civic coil-overs, soon to be 98 Corvette brakes, and 97 Firebird dash and console. The years may not be exactly right but you get the idea People keep calling it Frankenstein. I think that I will start up a new thread about this for people to tell what all they have pieced together..............to be continued...............
IP: Logged
12:33 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
Other than the gauge harness, you have the headight switch, the environmental controls and the radio.
The dimmer for the fiero uses the same connector as the firebird, but they are not interchangeable. But you can physically remove the firebird dimmer and replace it with the Fiero dimmer. The headlight switch itself uses a different connector, to make it plug and play I would have to canabalize a fiero headlight switch. Should be possible.
The environmental controls...very tricky if you want it to operate like it did in the Firebird. The fan switch is the same, but the mode selector needs to be replaced with a mutli-popsition rotary electric switch. I havevn't found a good source for those switches. When I do I will buy a case of them. The temperature selector cable can be modified to work with the Fiero airbox.
As for the radio, if you stay with your old fiero radio you don't have to do anything, just plug it in.
There are a couple of other minor electrical controls depending on what options your car has...the trunk popper and the rear window defogger. Again, to make the whole thing plug and play I have to canabalize the fiero switches.
I have a few extra switches and connectors laying around but not enough to build multiple copies of harnesses. I would either ask you to send me yours or ask for a core charge. I hope to have the prototypes available for testing soon.
IP: Logged
01:32 PM
Nov 26th, 2004
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
I ran into a little problem... I started wiring up a gauge from a 99 Firebird and I expected to be the same as a 98 that's in my car....wrong!
I had thought that the 97 to 2002 would be basically the same, but apparently GM had other ideas. This means that instead of being able to make one or two generic harnesses they will all have to be custom made for a specific set of gauges. I have no idea why they felt the need to change the wiring from year to year but I should be alble to figure out the differences.
EDIT, after getting my 99 manual on-line I see that GM incrementally incorporated digital inputs versus analog. The fuel gauge, the water temperature, as well as the tach appear to be digital. This pretty much rules out using anything 99 or newer for plug and play application in the Fiero. I will be putting my 99 guages up on eBay and looking for older analog replacements.
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 11-26-2004).]
IP: Logged
09:27 PM
Nov 28th, 2004
Racer_JT Member
Posts: 1419 From: Lynchburg, Virginia, USA Registered: Apr 2002
I took a trip to the pick-a-part today looking for Firebird parts and the outlook is pretty grim. There were no 4th gen Firebirds in the lot. There were a couple of 3rd gens and I was able to grab a headlight switch, (which is nearly identical to the Fiero). The connector side will be useful in the complete harness. (There had to be a dozen DeVilles there if anybody is looking for a 4.9, but that's another story).
The 97 and 98 gauge will be okay, but I'm not 100% sure the gas gauge will work on those. Ideal will be the 93 to 96 with the mechanical odometer. I discovered that the wiring for the 93 to 96 is pretty much the same as the 97 and 98. Also make sure if your car is a V6 to get the gauges from a V6, (they are usually the 125 mph versions). The V8 nearly always are marked as 150 MPH.
There are minor differences depending on what options the car had such as traction control, upshift, (if it was a manual) and so on. I can either ground those wires or apply 12V whatever it takes to make that light go off.
My goal was to have the prototype harness built by the end of the weekend, but it's probably going to take a bit longer than that. The first one always is a little tricky though.
IP: Logged
01:08 AM
Dec 2nd, 2004
1986GTV8 Member
Posts: 1259 From: Orlando,FL,USA Registered: Mar 2002
The prototype harness is nearly built. All I need to do is mock up the correct lengths of the wire and loom them to the proper configuration.
What really needs to happen is someone with fiberglass skills to make a pod like the 89/90 prototype to contain the firebird cluster that can be fitted to any stock Fiero. There are some real clear images of it in the latest "High Performance Pontiac" and of course anyone at the 20th Anniversary show last year saw it in person.
Based on the history we can start calling the cluster the '90 Fiero Prototype cluster and not Firebird. It's pretty obvious these gauges were designed for the Fiero and later used in the Firebird and not the other way around.
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 12-03-2004).]
IP: Logged
12:43 AM
PFF
System Bot
Rickady88GT Member
Posts: 10648 From: Central CA Registered: Dec 2002
I have wanted a Firebird Bird Dash ever sence I have seen the first post of it in progress. My hat is off to the people that have done it. thanks guys for the "nerve" to do it. I will do it some day but I just dont know when I want the Black on Tan. I think that mine will look totaly stock Fire bird in a Fiero. I just like it for some reason. but for the car that I and my Wife did a stock Fire Bird drivers cab will do. I want the Stock seats and all in there.
------------------
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 12-03-2004).]
I love the look so much I have a question though. Any pictures of where the "old console box is" or where most sub boxes are located so I can see how it looks like? The firebird console looks good, but I just can't find any good pictures focused on the rear part.
IP: Logged
02:00 AM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
but I just can't find any good pictures focused on the rear part.
I took the Fiero console and cut it down, modified the bottom such that it blends into the Firebird console and finally added a subwoofer with a plexiglass lid.
Ahh perfect *saves to collection of firebird dash pics*
So if you don't put a sub there like you have what will be there?? I'm pretty new to Fieros(I'm not even a month into fiero ownership) I know theres a computer or something there. But what is basically there if you don't have the console???
IP: Logged
10:06 AM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
jscott1, on your 98 gauges, didn't you have to change your fuel gauge? I have a 97, since GM changed them every year do you think it might be possible that my fuel gauge would work?
IP: Logged
09:42 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
jscott1, on your 98 gauges, didn't you have to change your fuel gauge? I have a 97, since GM changed them every year do you think it might be possible that my fuel gauge would work?
It's very probable that your fuel gauge will work. My 98 documentation was confusing, some places indicated it was analog others digital, so it might have been a mid-year change.
IP: Logged
11:25 PM
Dec 12th, 2004
Racer_JT Member
Posts: 1419 From: Lynchburg, Virginia, USA Registered: Apr 2002
Hey just checking in to see how the harness is going. I've been looking at doing a custom dash now of my own design instead of using the whole Firebird but will still need the harness. Something like Orville did here.....
IP: Logged
01:36 AM
PFF
System Bot
Dec 21st, 2004
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
Hey just checking in to see how the harness is going. I've been looking at doing a custom dash now of my own design instead of using the whole Firebird but will still need the harness.
The Prototype harness has just completed bench testing, (actually kitchen table testing)
Everything checks out okay... I'm using vehicle side harnesses to check out the Fiero-Fierbird PNP Harness
This harness is the complete harness to convert a 93 to 96 firebird to work in an 87 to 88 Fiero. I haven't checked other years so results may vary. For those that have never taken the Fiero dash apart there are three connectors, (called C1, C2, and C3). Those three connectors normally plug into the Fiero Cluster, as you are sitting in the driver's seat C1 is by you left knee, C2 is above that and C3 is on the right. In this harness, all three plug into the box, and the 34 pin connector plugs into the firebird cluster.
The headlight switch is also incorporated in the harness. The headlight switch is integrated into the dash harness for the reason that the Fiero cluster does not have any pins hot at all times and the Fiero headlight switch does not have illumination. The firebird requires both so I have addressed the missing function in this harness.
Also the firebird headlight switch has to be modified in two ways, first the dimmer requires that the circuit board for the Fiero be swapped onto the Firebrd dimmer. Second the Firebird connector requires the addition of the "B" pin in order to operate the Fiero headlights. Thanks to PBJ for that tip. The defroster and trunk popper will be incorporated as well for a 100% plug and play installation.
Also this harness requires that an entire set of Fiero gauges be canabalized to provide the connectors and more importantly the speedometer circuit board that has the divide by two circuit on it. I am also using an 88 speedomter board that has the buffered 4000 pulse per mile square wave. I haven't done it any other way, and I have heard of problems if you attempt to drive the Firebird speedometer directily from the VSS 4000 ppm sine wave.
Pricing and availability....I'm still trying to decide if I want to make these commercially. I have about 40 hours invested in this one although I'm sure I could build the next one in half the time. According to Archie I need to build at least three of them before I can work all the bugs out. So I plan to build another and get all the line lengths optimized, ( I just guessed on this one) and perfect a few other things that I know I can do better. After that I will decide if I want to build a third prototype and go into production.
Also, since I need to canabalize so much hardware if I sold these I would charge a core charge, if you return your headlight switch or gauges I would refund the core charge. I have at least $100 invested in hard to find parts like the F-body connector.
Let me know if there is sufficient interest in these harnesses???
I would be interested in this deeply, well if I had the other parts to do that dash . Glad to see my thread going good lol. I plan on doing this dash swap down the road, and there is quiet a bit of interest in the Firebird dash and havign these harnesses would make it a lot easier. So I think there is enough interest in this man.
IP: Logged
03:47 AM
pavo_roddy Member
Posts: 4351 From: State with a city named Gotham Registered: Apr 2004
Hey just checking in to see how the harness is going. I've been looking at doing a custom dash now of my own design instead of using the whole Firebird but will still need the harness. Something like Orville did here.....
Hi all,
This interior looks sharp !!! I have a ? for all those people who did dash swaps....Why didn't you try and use the steering column (sp) from the firebird????? Or whatever do you have or are swapping.......??
[This message has been edited by pavo_roddy (edited 12-21-2004).]
IP: Logged
04:58 AM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
This interior looks sharp !!! I have a ? for all those people who did dash swaps....Why didn't you try and use the steering column (sp) from the firebird????? Or whatever do you have or are swapping.......??
The steering column on the firebird, aside from being too long, doesn't look any different. GM hasn't made any significant changes to the Saginaw column in about 30 years. They still have the cheesy turn signal knob that feels like it's going to break off in your hand.
IP: Logged
05:56 AM
Racer_JT Member
Posts: 1419 From: Lynchburg, Virginia, USA Registered: Apr 2002
You know that I'm interested. Give me the complete list now that you know what you need and I'll start rounding them up. I have the 86 GT so we can check that everything works there as well. I have the 4.9 in my car will there be a difference in the setup?
[This message has been edited by Racer_JT (edited 12-21-2004).]
IP: Logged
07:27 AM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
I probably won't ever be able to build a one size fits all for all gauges. There are minor differences in the gauges depending on the year. Also if you went with a custom dash and retained the headlight switch that's a different harness too.
The hardest part to come across is the 34 pin connector that goes on the back of the Firebird cluster. Almost no one is willing to cut that off and sell it individually so I end up buying the whole dash harness to get that. And it has to be from a 98 or earlier or there will be lots of pins missing.
Different year Fieros shouldn't be a problem...as far as I know the gauges harness side wiring is the same on all Fieros. I just haven't tested it. I need to do some testing before I can start making promises that it will work.
The minor year differences that I was referring to is on the Firebird side. I can compensate for that but I'm not sure I can so it one size fits all for all years and all options. I need to test more gauges to see what happens.
4.9 shouldn't be a problem. I have one in my car too.
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 12-21-2004).]
