It is time to remove the SBC in my 88 Fiero for a rebuild/performance upgrade. Several people have asked about my install, so I am going to document the removal/reinstallation and take pictures of the finer points of the install.

If anyone is interested in how to remove the engine by raising the car with a cherry picker I can show that as well - just ask.

I started with the basic V8 Archie Economy kit and deviated from there to suit my own tastes, desires and preferences. I will try to provide parts numbers and costs for each of the special parts. For the parts I fabricated (with simple tools - drill, grinder, welder, pipe bender, and saws all), will try to describe/show hit it was done.

The only modifications to the Fiero chassis/body are the removal of the battery tray, removed some heat shield mounting tabs, cut the stock engine mount pad off the cradle and welded on a new mount bracket to the cradle. I did not trim the deck lid hinge, decklid (but will be adding a mustang vent) or the PS wheel well.

Here is the engine as it is right now - completely installed.

Parts list:
V8 Archie:
Economy Kit for Manual Trans - price $950

Summit Racing Equipment:
Morosso Electric Water Pump - Street Duty Rated - part # MOR-63555, price $225.95 (EDIT: Replaced with something different in 9/04)
Morosso Filler Neck - part # 63420, price $52.95
Summit Mini Starter - part # SUM-G1660, price $157.95
TRD Oil Filer Bypass - part # TRD-1413, price $16.95
TRD Remote Oil Filter Bracket - part # 1028, price $12.75
Holley Fuel Pressure Regulator - part #HLY-12-501, price $46.95
Hypertech 180 Degree Fan Switch - part # HYP-4026, price $44.95

Autozone: (I did a poor job documenting these parts - sorry)
Idler pulley next to AC compressor - I don't remember the part # or application - price < $15
Throttle cable bracket - price ~ $15
Fuel pressure gauge - price ~ $10
Edelbrock Air cleaner - price ~ $19 (this is a temporary item until I finish my cold air intake)

Ebay:
Stock 81 Corvette stainless steel tubular manifolds with air lines removed - price $50

West Coast Fiero:
Heavy Duty Poly Trans Mounts - price $130

Local Circle Track Supplier
Battery Tray - price $15
2 gage cables 16' - price $16
Battery Connecters - price ~$5
Strut Rod (I wanted a longer rod than the one in the Archie kit) - price $10

Parts that were Custom Fabricated by me!!!
2 1/4" Dual Exhaust with mandrel bends (parts from JC Whitney)
Front Engine Mount
Torque Strut Rod mounts
Water Pump Outlets (EDIT: Replaced 9/04)
Water inlets (engine) (EDIT: Replaced 9/04
Coolant Return Tube (mounted to firewall)
(EDIT 9/04) Transmission mount brackets - stockers were bending

Then are the many small fittings, hoses, clamps, tubing, pipes, and what not

Here is the front of the engine. Notice the idler pulley and the water inlets (the engine mount has been upgraded - see below):

http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3766561/1062313960464_PS_SBC_88.jpg[/img]

Here is the Dual Exhaust:

[img]http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3766561/1064878847692_Dual_Exhaust_2.jpg [/img]

Here is the exhaust manifold:
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3766561/1065479977143_Exhaust_Plug_Wires_Rear.jpg[/UR L]

Here is the front engine mount: - It needs some paint
[URL=http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3766561/1061994533391_New_Front_Mount.jpg]http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3766561/1061994533391_New_Front_Mount.jpg

Here are two pic's of the electric water pump. Notice the hoses that go from the water pump to the engine:
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3766561/1065054875899_SBC_Elect_WP_Installed_3.jpg[/ URL]
[URL=http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3766561/1065902494340_SBC_Elect_WP_Installed_1.jpg]http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3766561/1065902494340_SBC_Elect_WP_Installed_1.jpg[/ URL]

Here is the remote oil filer, starter, and fuel pressure regulator.
[URL=http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3766561/1063238753907_1061571592716_Starter_Oil_Filter_Regulator.jpg]http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3766561/1063238753907_106157159271 6_Starter_Oil_Filter_Regulator.jpg

Here is the fuel pressure gauge and the hard fuel/vacuum lines
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3766561/1062380174305_Fuel_Vac_Gauge.jpg

Here is the battery up front:
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3766561/1064730429046_Relocated_Battery.jpg

*Edited to fix the links.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 09-18-2003).]

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 09-05-2004).]

wow, ive got drool allover my desk now...

I would love as clean a setup as youve got there.... very nice

This is great!! Thanks for posting all this info and pics. That is a nice clean install. I know I wii be waching this thread!

Thanks for the knowledge now i just need the $$$$

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: If anyone is interested in how to remove the engine by raising the car with a cherry picker I can show that as well - just ask.

If you show me a picture of you hoisting the car up by the trunk latch, I've just lost all respect for you.

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Easy Engine/Cradle Removal (no lift required). Feel free to use this info at your own risk. I have no control over the condition of your equipment or your sence of good judgment.

One of the most difficult tasks for most Weekend Mechanics is the removal of the Fiero engine cradle. I have not been blessed with an overhead lift, so I have had to work with just the basic shop equipment: tall jack stands, hydraulic floor jack and a cherry picker. Here is how it is done assuming you have disconnected all the wires and hoses and all that is left is dropping the cradle.

1. Jack the rear of the Fiero up using the rear cradle crossmember by the muffler.
2. Place jack stands under the main side rails that the A-Arms or lateral links attach to.
3. Remove the rear wheels.
4. Remove the nuts from the front cradle mount bolts. Using a large Phillips Screwdriver (3/8" in diameter) on each side, drive the bolts out with the screwdriver. As the bolt comes out, the shaft of the screwdriver will keep the cradle in place. The screwdrivers will be very easy to remove later - that is the reason for using them.
5. Remove the two rear cradle bolts.
6. Remove the top 3 nuts from each of the rear struts and push the struts down (you can use the jack with a 2x6 board across the trunk to raise the body relative to the cradle to help push the struts out of the way, but don't go overboard with this or you will bend the trunk).
7. Attach a chain between the strut towers using the inside strut holes and some grade 8 bolts (or metric equivalent).
8. Place the floor jack under the cradle by the muffler and remove the jack stands.
9. Move the cherry picker into place behind the Fiero. The floor jack should wind up being between the legs of the cherry picker. The legs of the cherry picker need to extend past the front of the cradle and the boom needs to be centered between the strut towers. You need to make sure you can lower the floor jack with the cherry picker in place.
10. Lower the car down so the cradle rests on the legs of the cherry picker.
11. Hook the cherry picker ram to the chain, remove the cradle bolts (and screwdrivers) and lift the rear of the Fiero skyward with the cherry picker.
12. Once it looks like the engine will clear via the rear wheel well, install the jack stands and front wheel chocks to keep the Fiero in place (I always give the car a couple of solid pushes to make sure it is stable before unhooking the chain).
13. Unhook the chain from the ram.
14. Roll the cherry picker/engine/cradle assembly to a good spot.

And that is it.

I have used this method well over 20 times without issue or incident. My best time from complete car to cradle on the floor is less than 2 hrs (but all my bolts are not rusted solid either).

Well, I have not been in the shop much... been busy remodeling TWO bathrooms in the house. I hate working with wood [read: house] and love working with steel [read: cars] go figure. But it was a necessary delay to keep the live-in girlfriend happy.

Back to the 88 GT. The motor choice has changed. I still like the idea of a latemodel 302, but I will not be working on it right now. I am now building a 350 (4 bolt roller cam block) with the ZZ4 camshaft and a set of Vortec heads. So while I have been busy, I have been buying all the needed parts and doing what I can.

Here is the engine so far:

I am waiting for the heads to come back from the machine shop (screw in studs, valve job and .550 springs). While waiting I have been busy detailing some of the parts. Here is the vortec intake, edlebrock carb and ATI carb hat.


This allows the air filter to be just on the backside of the air inlet from the DS panel and keeps the filter out of the hot engine compartment.

Here is the crank pulley:

Timing cover - notice the stainless steel button head fasteners!


Here is a strut tower modification I am thinking about doing to make it look better. Remove the studs from the top of the struts and weld 3/8" nuts to the backside. Then drill the holes to accept 3/8" stainless steel button heads coming done from above. Here is kinda what it would look like (5/16" button heads in photo):

Notice the tabs for the decklid vent brackets are gone! I didn't have the GT ones and been driving the car without bolting the vents down for nearly 4 year, so I decided it was time the were gone completely. They look cool without them! That piece is REALLY hard... had to use a carbide sawsall blade!

I am off 4 days for thanksgiving and all my family dinners have been pushed back into Dec, so I should be able to spend a good 3 days in the shop putting the engine and Fiero back together.

Great info. Giving you a + rating.

While you have the cradle out would youdo me a favor & measure the size of the front cradle bolts?

I had to "hack" mine up to get the cradle out. There was not much left after I finished with them.

Thanks in advance.

John

Nice so far ,where did you get that carb hat I need something like that.

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Tuners of the Quickest 4.9
12.51@118 mph

4.5 (RSR)Hi Perf. Caddi-V8
In place and running.

The cradle front cradle bolt is .465" in diameter and 4" in overall lenght. It is a metric bolt (11.8mm Dia) but I could not tell you what size it is without running to a parts store. Take the nut to a Farm & Fleet, Tractor Supply or Rural King and use it to compare to their metric bolts. That will give you the thread pitch and diameter.

The carb hat is from a ATI/Procharger blower application. I got mine from Ebay ($78 non-polished) and they are on there off an on. Here is a nice polished one just like mine and a plastic stock dodge one.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2445024783&category=46098
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2445296259&category=38634

Really nice job!

In the top right corner of this photo is the rear stabilizer bar. Where did the bracket that attaches it to the strut come from? Who was the maker of your bar and what is the thickness?
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3766561/1063238753907_1061571592716_Starter_Oil_Filter_Regulator.jpg

Thanks!

Nice, very nice.

A (+) for you.

Archie

quote Originally posted by Archie: Nice, v;0ery nice. A (+) for you. Archie

agreed'

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Rich AIM one fast 2m8

Nice information.

Thanks for all the nice comments!

Webbee, the sway bar and brackets are all stock 88 GT/Formula. Nothing special about them, if you still need to know the diameter, just let me know.

Spent a few hours in the shop today! Got the cam, lifters and timing chain installed. Then I painted the block:

The Vortec heads will not be back from the machine shop until tuesday/wednesday, so I will focus on buttoning up the lower end and pulling the old engine off the cradle.

Here is the oil pan:

Here is the old engine, partially disasembled. It is still on the cradle and check out my neat scissor lift! It is a perfect size for the cradle and was an industrial surplus item and is rated for 3000 lbs. The wheels on it also let the cherry picker legs slide under it.

Here is the rear torque bracket:



The rod ends are from Archies kit. The tube is 12" long and cam from a local circle track shop for about $10. The lower brackets are just 3/16" steel welded to the cradle. Actually, they were made from the steel pad that comes with the RWD GM Poly trans mount. A diagonal cut across the center and then you have 2 torque rod brackets!

I am running the WCF heavy duty trans mounts. But they pushed the trans up too high and did not quite fit the 88/isuzu combo for some reason. So a few days ago I sectioned the front and rear trans brackets a 1/4" each to lower the trans side about 1/2".

That's it for today. I hope to have the oilpump, pan and timing cover installed on the new engine and the old engine pulled off the cradle and the new one mounted on it Friday... before my brother steals the cherry picker.

If there are any specific pictures you want to see, just ask...

**Edited to pick add the proper oil pan picture, it was a duplicate of the block pic.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 11-27-2003).]

What exhaust did you have on there before? How did that sound and might you have a clip of it?

Wishful thinking!

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Christian Thomas
87 Pontiac Fiero GT Burgandy/Silver
86 Pontiac Fiero GT Red/Silver

The exhaust is a true dual system with turbo tube mufflers. I fabricated it myself from mandrel bent tubing. It was soemthing like $130 for the two mufflers and the bends from JC Whitney.
Here is the muffler specs and part #.
Turbo Tube Mufflers 15" body, 19" Length, 2" ID, Part #22ZS2856X, Price $24.95 each.

This system sounded nice and rumbly at idle and was on the loud side (I could hear it about 100 feet away if the tips were facing me). At full throttle, it sounded EXCELLENT. Unfortunately, I don't have a sound clip, or anyway of making one.

Well it is snowing outside... and the heat is on in the shop! Been a productive day.

Got my oil pump, pan, timing cover, harmonic balancer and fuel block off installed. Pretty stainless button heads!

Yeah, I am sick in the head...

Here are the parts I used to relocte the oil filter. The dual in/out part is actually for a ford. The two parts to the right are for a pre 68 canister to spin on filter conversion (allows use of the proper thread to use the Ford part). Then some 1/2" pipe and hydraulic fittings.

The fit is tight and the starter blocks has to be radius on the top to clear the oil parts.

Here is the new engine now resting on the cradle. It is bolted to the trans, but I am repainting the front mount, so it is just hanging around.

I have a sickness for these stainless steel button heads... Nothing like taking a nice EXPENSIVE hunk of aluminum and drilling out the threaded holes just to retap them a larger size. Archie uses 7/16" bolts to attach the trans to the adapter. And my button head bolts do not come in 7/16"... go figure. But I happened to have the 1/2" ones, so I drilled and retapped for the 1/2" bolts. Notthing tricky - the trans holes were already large enough and the 1/2" bolts fit through the alighnment dowels (barely). Here is what it looks like now:

That's it for tonight, I am waiting for the paint to dry on the front mount. Saturday, I want to have the mount installed. Then the oil pressure sender. I am going to mount this right above the stock filter location and will have to shorten my wires. Aside from that, there is not much left to do until the heads come back. I may just take the time to do the button head mod on the rear struts! (and replace the 02 sensor in my girlfriend's 99 Maxima... $160 for an O2 sensor!!!). Gotta love GM!

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 11-28-2003).]

Thanks for the help!!

Here is a free bump for you.

John

Well I have been back at it. It would have been way too easy to just put the new engine in exactly the way the old one came out... no, I have to waste time redoing it all.

I cut the rear springs by 1 coil, and before my oil filter was about 1" below the cradle, so with the lowering of the car, and lowering the engine on cradle another 1/2", I needed to do something different with the oil filter. I decided to go with a dual oil filter setup, mainly because the in/out ports were on the side vs. up - saving me the needed ground clearance. The oil filters are now about 1" above the bottom of the cradle. To do this I had to make a new bracket off the trans to support the end of the filter housing.

Some may notice that I redid the fuel regulator and pressure gauge as well. I did not like the look of the gauge on the top of the engine (did not look clean enough),so I wanted to move it down below. I had to make another bracket to support the regulator off of the adapter plate and support the oil filter off one of the unused bolt holes on the new oil filter housing.

In case anyone wants to know the specs of the engine: it is a 350 4 bolt roller cam block that has been bored 0.060". I am using an early neutral balanced crank (with 2 piece seal adapter - this allowed me to use my existing flywheel). The heads are Vortec, with screw in studs, and .550 lift springs. The combo nets a 10:1 compression ratio. The cam is the GM ZZ4 cam with .510 lift. I am expecting this engine to be in the 350 to 375 hp range when all dialed in.

Here is some more pics with more an more parts installed:

The last main item left to address are the fuel and vacuum lines. The old ones will not work with the new intake and relocating the fuel pressure gauge. I made some new ones, but when I installed the dist, the vacuum advance canister interfered with them, so off they came. I am now out of the hard line and will need to purchase some more. So I hope to have them made in the next day or two.

Some may notice that the intake does not have button heads... the Vortec intake is held down with 5/16" bolts and the ones I had were not long enough. I ordered the new ones today, so they will be here on Monday. I am also checking into replacing all the metric bolts on the trans with stainless button heads too.... yes, I am sick.

If all goes well, I hope to have the engine back in the car on Sunday/Monday and to the alignment shop early next week. I really hope to have this car back on the road before Christmas.

I just have to say great job!
that is looking great and talk about inspiration.....

Very nice! Positive for you!

------------------
'87GT Fully modded, 3" Drop on 17's 3800SC on the way....or a turbo
'92 LeBaron soft top, The Players car. :)

fieros only

Fieroguru, I am very interested in how your engine performs, I had been thinking of uprating the roller V8 in mine using the vortec heads and the ZZ4 cam, please let us know your results. Also what sort of clutch are you using, and do you expect to have any problems with slip, and by the way the car looks great!

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84SE, aero body, 5 speed and a 350 V8

Fantastic and beautiful! A+ for you!

Guru, what type paint are you using? It looks to be a very very clean install, plus for you!

Matt

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Looks awesome Guru!

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Christian Thomas
87 Pontiac Fiero GT Burgandy/Silver 5.7L ZZ4 5spd
86 Pontiac Fiero GT Red/Silver 2.8L 5spd

mafv8:
I plan to put the car on the dyno some time soon... just gotta find one close (or do it on the Hot Rod Power Tour) and use my G-tech to calculate my 1/4 mile time (it should be in the 12's). I am starting out with a stock 3.1 Z24 clutch and will see how that goes. That same clutch holds just fine in my 4.5 V8 Fiero Roadster. I also operate under the philosophy that I want the weakest link to be the clutch. If it slips then I will upgrade to something stronger.

Definitely upgrade to a roller cam. Get a late model block that spun a rod bearing... there are bunches of them. Then buy the 1 piece to 2 piece rear seal adapter - I paid $15 for mine, and use the early crank/rotating assy. in the roller cam block. This will allow you to use all your internals, and upgrade to a roller cam with minimal cost. The alternative is to buy aftermarket roller lifters which are super pricy and a new externally balanced flywheel!

For info on building a Vortec high performance motor (and why you really need a roller cam), buy "Small Block Chevy Engine Buildups" from HP Books - ISBN: 1-55788-400-5. They use the GM Hot Cam and Vortec heads on a 350 and get 420hp at 5800 rpm. I used the ZZ4 cam because it was a new take out and cheap. The ZZ4 crate motor produces 350 HP with the restrictive aluminum Vette heads, and the GM Fast Burn crate motor make 375 (or was it 385) with the aluminum version of the vortec heads and the ZZ4 cam.

fiero go fast:
The blue paint is Krylon Rust Tough - "true blue" and costs 3.99 per can (from Autozone). It is some GOOD Stuff! The black is Rustoleum Professional - and this stuff is impervious to oil and gas (I seem to remember it to be about $4.50 a can).

Thanks for all the nice comments and +'s!

Another productive day...

I am using an electric waterpump to avoid any cuting of the body (I am also working on a mechanical pump system...), I used the street rated electric pump (all the details in 1st post). It is mounted to where the battery used to be. I think it looks good in that spot!

Here is my new engine all put together and ready to go back in! I just had to put my cold air intake on to see how it looked!

Here is the engine. It is now in the 88, but not much is hooked up at this time. I did install the cold air intake.

I also did the button head bolt conversion to my struts (while I was trimming a coil off the springs). What do yoyu think? I think they look really good!

Well that's it for today. I hope to finish hooking everything up Monday and bringing it back to life. I hope my alignment guy can get me in on Tuesday! If all goes well, I will put the rest of the interior back together and tool around town when there is no snow on the ground (most of the snow melted today!)

WOW, looking nice. Thanks for the pics.

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Looks super clean. What is the cost of your engine build up if you don't mind me asking? I would like to have 350-400hp someday and your setup looks ideal.

Thanks!

I did not go with anything super expensive and tried to build this motor fairly cheap for now, but I wanted it to be well over 300hp. I wnated a respectable engine so I could drive the car and get it dialed in and finish the rest of the car - mainly paint. This engine should get me into the high to mid 12's which will be OK for now. My long term goal for this car is in the 11's.

A local circle track shop will builds a shortblock "light". Complete rotating assy reconditioned crank, rods, new hyper. pistons, rings, and engine machining on your block for $450. The vortec heads will run about $550. I bought mine used for $300 and put another $200 worth of work into them with .550 springs, replaced 3 seats and complete valve job. Then add another $150 for a vortec intake. The ZZ4 cam can be purchased from ebay (new take out) for $135. Add another $200 for the oil pump, timing set, gaskets, seals, and other small parts and you have yourself my engine for about $1500 (of coarse it cost nearly twice this just to install it in a fiero).

If I had it to do over, I would not have spent $700 on vortec components (heads/Intake)... I would have just spend a little more and gone with a set of aluminum trickflows and reused my old intake - because the Vortec heads really limit your options. Like I have a TPI unit on the shelf, but the Vortec style intake for it will costs over $350. The Holley StealthRam intake is a steal, but it does not come in the vortec style. And I have yet to see a good looking stock GM Vortec EFI manifold. Oh well. I can always use the heads on a motor for my truck when the 4.3 gives out.

The next time this engine comes out, I plan on adding a forged rotating assy, a set of trick flows, and a Holley Stealth Ram (or TPIS MiniRam - had one of these on my 406 Vette.... AWESOME! - nothing like 400 cubes pulling strong to 6500 RPM!)

I have got to stop drooling on my keyboards, it's cutting into my Fiero money.
Very nice work!!!

------------------
Don Hites
88 GT, Getrag 5spd, 4.9 v8 with a Delta cam and other heavy mods.
88 Coupe 5spd Duke
(now under restoration)

Well it was a long day at work and I was late getting home. Now I am super tired (and think I am getting sick - raspy throat), so I will say inside tonight and watch Monster Garage and American Chopper!

Hopefully, I will have more pictures and a running car on Tuesday.

Anyone in east central IL able to record sound clips. My dual exhaust sounded great with the 283, and it should really sound good now. I would love to post a sound clip, but don't know how...

A bump to keep this on top.

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: Anyone in east central IL able to record sound clips. My dual exhaust sounded great with the 283, and it should really sound good now. I would love to post a sound clip, but don't know how...

Let me know and I’ll bring a video camera over so everyone can see and hear, I can take and covert to a computer. Then we just need to find someone to host a clip. Would love to chat about Fiero’s and see your assume rides anyway

TTT

Darth, we will have to do that!

I didn't get anything done last night except sleep. Went to bed about 4PM and got up this morning about 6AM... feeling much better now. Hopefully, I will get some shop time this evening.

I'll host the clip for you...

webmaster @ idiotstardom.com

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86 GT -- All Options except Performance Sound

Well no new pictures tonight, but I am feeling better and finally got back to work on the Fiero. The engine was already in, so I spent this evening hooking up all the coolant lines. The rear lower bolt where the water inlets bolt to the block is not much fun to get to. Not impossible, it just takes longer for that 1 bolt than it takes for the other 3 bolts and putting all the hoses on combined! Oh well, It always comes out and goes back in (but I have been worming on a bolt on crossover pipe that will clear the frame and allow the engine to be dropped without removing it!). So the collant is all but filled and the electric pump primed. If you look close, you will see a stainless button head in the middle "O" in Moroso to bleed the air out of it.

The fuel lines are also hooked up. The dual filters really make that space tight, but thats ok.

I also installed the cold air intake and filter and reinstalled the inner wheel liners on both sides.

Double checked all the wiring to make sure it was out of harms and heats way.

All that is left is to bleed the brakes, install the rear wheels, hook up the shifter cables, fill the coolant, and test circulate the coolant and fuel. Then it will be ready to fire up. I will not have any time to work on it Friday, so I will get my brother to help me first thing Saturday morning.

I can't wait!!!

If you think you will get it running would you like me to bring the camera over, Saturday is wide open for me. I can even give you a hand, it never hurts to have another set of eyes to watch for leaks. Give me an email if you like my address is in my profile.