You have $20k. Your mission, is to turn a stock fiero into something supercar worthy. I.e. 0-60 in 3.0 seconds... 0-100 in 6... 0-100-0 in 10. pick your poison.

1. Can it be done?
2. Can it be done without modifying the exterior so much that it doesn't look like a fiero anymore?

My thoughts:
-You'll need to minimize weight... Probably gut the interior (but keeping the hvac controls and stereo... hey... they're light.) Target weight <2500lbs wet

-You'll need massive off the line torque for acceleration... SBC with 500+ horses, 500+lb/ft would probably take care of that...

-Transmission... transverse will keep it looking stock... probably need a 4t80e, but it will conflict with the first part above...

-HUGE tires... I don't know about this one. Needs to be street legal, so no drag radials... Might need a 20" wide tire in the rear? Widebody?

-Big brakes... no biggie. Plenty to choose from.

-Might need to install a roll cage

Thoughts?

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 12-27-2004).]

Give me the $20G's and I'll be more than happy to give it a try

I think it could be done. It would probably cost a little more than $20,000, I would guess it would cost somewhere in thw $30-$40,000 range. You could make alot of progress towards the "super car" status with the first $20,000 though.
G.

[This message has been edited by mtncrasher (edited 12-27-2004).]

quote Originally posted by mtncrasher: Give me the $20G's and I'll be more than happy to give it a try

heh... don't have it Just thinking outside the box

quote Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC: Well heres a hell of a suprise. My car almost fully stripped weights 2200 !!! 860 front 1340 rear. I cant believe it. This is all thats on the car right now. Basicaly just a frame, seat, DOHC/5spd and windshiled.

from https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/056199.html ... might have to go custom tubular frame?

Guess what I'm doing. Build thread starts in two weeks.

$20k shouldn't be too hard actually. The hard problem is getting the power to the pavement without breaking the motor mounts in half and sending the cradle barelling out the back of the car. 20" treads aren't really going to get you that much over 17" or 18" treads either. Given that the standard 0-60 time for the v6 fiero is about 8 seconds, and most "supercars" are closer to 4 seconds, this should be even easier. Now, the Northstar weighs about the same as the stock iron v6. It puts out 300 hp, as opposed to the stock 140. Big difference.
And since weight is a concern, let's put this in a fiero that didn't come with A/C. That removes the weight of the A/C system, and the compressor, meaning we don't have the power drain of the belt being there for it. Looking at the Saleen S7, it has much lower gears in the box, than the stock fiero tranny. So, if we even out the gears, and use the northstar, we should be pretty close. Throw on some 18x8" meats in the rear, and 17x7" meats in the front, and we should be almost there, and only about $15k in the hole. $5k is plenty to do some lightening up and to add a little bit more power with a turbo. Granted, it's still nowhere near the same parts that you might see in an Enzo Ferrari or Saleen S7, the 0-60 is close enough. Take another $20k, and you're gold, and can hop up the innards some more. But if you want to hit the "supercar" barrier, you're gonna lose the "I drove it 800 miles to hang out with a bunch of other fiero geeks" aspect. You'll have to trailer it instead.

quote Originally posted by dobez: And since weight is a concern, let's put this in a fiero that didn't come with A/C. That removes the weight of the A/C system, and the compressor, meaning we don't have the power drain of the belt being there for it.

Bah... it's just 40 lbs/10hp... and then it would mean I couldn't drive it in the summer.

quote Looking at the Saleen S7, it has much lower gears in the box, than the stock fiero tranny. So, if we even out the gears, and use the northstar, we should be pretty close. Throw on some 18x8" meats in the rear, and 17x7" meats in the front, and we should be almost there, and only about $15k in the hole.

Northstar is fairly slow 0-60. I'm getting about 5 (unofficial) seconds. Problem is it doesn't have any off the line, low end torque... bare minimum to get to 3 second 0-60's would be doubling the hp/torque (possibly with a turbo as mentioned...) Also, are you saying 8" wide tires in the rear? How in the world would that handle a massively powerful engine, and a light car? I think (with nothing to back me up) 12" wide would be a bare minimum. like 330's or so.

Since we're talking about the S7.. it weighs in at 2756lbs, has 525lb ft torque @4000rpm, 550hp @6400 rpm (those rpm's do sound like a beefy northstar.....), and has 19x13" rear wheels

heh... guess I was a little overzealous saying 20" wide tires

quote You'll have to trailer it instead.

Unacceptable!

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 12-27-2004).]

This project is totaly achievable. If you know how to build up a SBC you can build an all aluminum on for lets say 10k (that would be a bada$$ motor) . Then go with a 4t80e ,yeah it'll add weight but weight (over the wheels) is good for traction plus the aluminum SBC will help reduce total drivetrain weight. As far as wheels go I'd say 17" rims with a really good width ,Like the wheels going on madcurls redux part 2 (i think) just not as big a diameter. Nothing with to thin a sidewall because that hurts traction at launch. Big brakes and suspension are nothing new to the forum so like you said just take your pic. If you read alot of these reviews of supercars in road and track and car and driver , there are some fiero's that run faster then these supercars now. I just read that the Enzo runs a 11 sec quarter mile thats not to impressive to me considering how much it costs.

Bribe the guy taking the time/distance measurements. You can pocket the rest.

What I'm doing: 406 chevy (dry sump to lower the cg), 48mm Webers on Inglese manifold, porsche G50 5-speed, C4 corvette hubs w/13 in. brakes, tube frame w/ 5 in. stretch, stock width GT with stretch at rear wheels (overall length stock). I am using a trimmed center section from fiero to maintain weather seals and opening doors. Finished weight = 2200 lbs, HP 500+

quote Originally posted by gusshotrod: What I'm doing: 406 chevy (dry sump to lower the cg), 48mm Webers on Inglese manifold, porsche G50 5-speed, C4 corvette hubs w/13 in. brakes, tube frame w/ 5 in. stretch, stock width GT with stretch at rear wheels (overall length stock). I am using a trimmed center section from fiero to maintain weather seals and opening doors. Finished weight = 2200 lbs, HP 500+

Build up thread with pics ....You know what to do

quote Originally posted by gusshotrod: What I'm doing: 406 chevy (dry sump to lower the cg), 48mm Webers on Inglese manifold, porsche G50 5-speed, C4 corvette hubs w/13 in. brakes, tube frame w/ 5 in. stretch, stock width GT with stretch at rear wheels (overall length stock). I am using a trimmed center section from fiero to maintain weather seals and opening doors. Finished weight = 2200 lbs, HP 500+

Interesting. Is the G50 a longitudinal mount? Is this going to be for a kit car or something?

G50 is longitudinal mount. Body will be 86 GT.

It depends on what you classify as super car performance. Doing it in a "stock" (space frame) Fiero is IMO a stretch. Tube chassis is definately the way to go. My car is heavy at 2200 wet. The key will be to stay light and that means getting rid of the space frame. I know for a fact that a tube chassis IMSA can built to be 1800 lb wet with a 4 cylinder 385 hp motor and transverse gearbox, but unless you spend about $10K to $15K on the box you will keep breaking them at that HP. Having said that, going with a longitudinal drivetrain is a good idea. I am not saying that it can't be done, just not for $20K. Even with the setup mentioned, (and using a rebuilt motor) a strict budget would be more realistic at $40K.

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Paul

Home Built Tube Chassis IMSA Race Car - 3.8 lb./hp | 1987 Fiero GT 119,xxx, 3.1 motor, 1 1/4" rear swaybar, Full poly

Well, I've already got 95% of the parts and total cost is looking like it will be in $8000 range.

quote Originally posted by gusshotrod: Well, I've already got 95% of the parts and total cost is looking like it will be in $8000 range.

You already had the engine right? What are you going to do for brakes and suspension. There are some places I could have spent less (seats, safety equipment, poly windshield, etc.), but the used tranny was $4500 alone and after looking around, I thought that was a good deal.

Brakes are C4 slotted 13" rotors w/wilwood calipers, suspension will be fabricated with C/O's.

Building a supercar based on the Fiero has been my pursuit for about two years now. I am still about four to six months away from actually building the car, as everything has been R&D up to this point. The most I have done on the car is remove a lot of OEM sheetmetal that will be unnecessary for my cause. There is one aspect of the effort that hasn't been discussed much here - safety! Reaching top supercar levels of performance is one thing, being certain of the ability to tell the story to your grandkids is another.

You could actually just throw the majority of the 20K at the right motor and trans and hit most of your goals, but you would be doing it in a car that was never designed for the task. Creeping up to 100mph is one thing, but getting there in six seconds is quit a different story. It happens so fast and violently that there is not always enough time to compensate. There are no guarantees (even drivers of state-of-the-art race cars die occasionally) but you have to look at the total package and design something that at least makes the odds of breathing, walking and talking likely on the other side.

Take a simple thing like eliminating weight. You can strip a bunch of weight and end up with a super-performance machine, or a four-wheeled land surfer that can't say no to a nice breeze!

Not trying to scare anyone away from their dreams, just trying to provoke you to put as much thought into safety as you do the pursuit of great numbers. I honestly believe that it is only by the grace of God that I am here at age forty to even say this because I raced and cruised at triple digits with vehicles that I now realize were deathtraps!

Even though Fieros were never designed for this type of performance, I believe there is a lot of potential in the basic design of the car - which is why I am still developing my concept on this platform. It is also the only readily available, mid-engine, American, two-seat, true sports car type chassis avaliable. I know I could actually start from scratch but I really enjoy modifying pre-existing things...

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Todd Perkins - the member formerly known as "perkidelic"
todd's hot rods

If someone had the time and resources, it would be interesting to remake the space frame out of aluminum and using the stock 2.8 see what kind of performance gains you get.

How about a twin turbo northstar with a 4t80e. suspension and brakes...you pick.

As of right now, fierox is heading for the 10's....from what ive heard, purple reign is capable of running 10's with all the bugs worked out....Tina has a 383 stroker that is extremely built, well theres more but you get the point. Supercars generally run 11's if you read the magazines...motor trend, car and driver, road and track, etc. So as of right now, we already have super car capabilities, but give me $20k and we'll see what I can come up with.

Well as the motor goes heres what im doing as soon as archie gets his LS1/LS6 kits ready. I am going to start with a LS1. I am going to buy the Lunati 427 Stroker kit. Yes thats right, 427 cubic inches of fire breathing motor Fully forged internals with a set of fully ported heads. Then i am going to add the FAST intake with the 90mm throttle body. I think that will be good for 600+ HP. I think the stroker kit is $4500.

quote Originally posted by gusshotrod: Brakes are C4 slotted 13" rotors w/wilwood calipers, suspension will be fabricated with C/O's.

Sorry.......... I knew that. Seriously, it will be an impressive thread. It sounds like you will be able to do much more of the work yourself than I was able.

Paul.

I think it's quite possible, and with minimal mods to the space frame also.

VW based 6 speed from EIP: $5K
500 HP Chevy: $5K
Complete suspension replacement (mostly rear): <$5K (this product isn't available yet, but wait until I learn to weld...)
Which leaves $5K for brakes, wheels and tires.

I'm confident that the suspension can be modded, with no cutting of chassis metal, to fit 17x10 rear wheels. These can fit 275-305 width tires.

Splurge a little bit and buy RaceLogic traction control and you won't have to worry about breaking the tires loose... just keep your foot planted and shift.

quote Originally posted by Will: VW based 6 speed from EIP: $5K Complete suspension replacement (mostly rear): <$5K (this product isn't available yet, but wait until I learn to weld...)

Ok, what do you know that I don't? what is this trans you speak of? is this something that's transverse, or longitudinal?

also, if you're making a new suspension, i want to know, and i also want to know if it will be able to be modified to fit an 87 fiero?

Just my opinion, but I don't think there's anything worth saving from a Fiero chassis if you want to get serious about this. Front and rear suspension layout, steering, etc are all not up to the task. Unibody is quite strong but heavy and cg is too high. Any available automatic transaxle is heavy and results in the engine five+ inches too high with too much rear weight bias. Goals should be low polar moment, low CG height, correct suspension geometry/springs/shock rates/roll rates and roll couple, good sprung/unsprung weight ratio, useful gear ratios, power to weight, sticky tires and good aero. And it should't break. Just running tens in the quarter is not my idea of a supercar, neither is +1G on a skidpad. You can make any car do that. I thnk is about how the car transitions, how it behaves on the road with all variables factored in. Doesn't do much good to go fast if a bump in the road puts you in the next lane, or a sudden lane change requires a death grip on the steering wheel.

quote Originally posted by cooguyfish: Ok, what do you know that I don't? what is this trans you speak of? is this something that's transverse, or longitudinal? also, if you're making a new suspension, i want to know, and i also want to know if it will be able to be modified to fit an 87 fiero?

Trans: http://www.eiptuning.com/eip/completetransmission.html
It's a VW 5 speed case with a fully aftermarket 6 speed gearset and extended end cover. Supposedly does pretty well with 700 HP...
An alternative would be the 6 speed forthcoming in the Pontiac G6. That box is rated for 300 ftlbs, but if it's anything like as robust as the 282, ought to handle 500-600 with care...

Suspension... I have some ideas
The Fiero suspension has a few glaring faults: At the rear: bump-steer and pro-squat geometry; at the front: steering kickback from excessive scrub radius and pro-dive geometry.
That's really only 4 things that need fixing in terms of geometry... In terms of components, the 5x100 bearings are junk, as are the stock brakes. The brakes have been dealt with time and again. The bearings are not hard if you're fabbing a suspension up...

WIll: Polor moments are measured from the cg of the car, not the center of the car. The closer all items are to the cg, the lower the pm. What's wrong with the stock suspension? Front instant center changes too quickly with suspension movement, camber gain not right, roll steer, slow steering, small bearings, small brakes, small ball joints, durometer of rubber bushings, weak sway bar, bad shocks, lack of or difficult adjustment, scrub radius, anti-dive. Rear suspension basically the same. Also, transverse transaxle will not allow the engine to be lowered and still maintain minimal angle on the axle/cv joints. The input to the transaxle is above axle height, on the Porsche it is several inches below axle height.

step 1: Steal CaliKids car
Step 2: Turbo it to hell...
Step 3: bigger brakes
step 4: go show the guy in the Lambo (real not fiero ) whos boss

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'86 Fiero GT
My Fiero XoticRydz Mid-Rear Madness

Be Excellent To Each Other" - Bill S. Preston Esquire Ted Theadore Logan

1. Steal Pauls (Roadrunner) car.
2. Add 100 lbs street equipment and some street tires.
3. Blow 'em ALL away.

quote Originally posted by gusshotrod: First thing: lighten 'er up a little.

Hey! Somebody stole the front half of your car!

I am pretty much in agreement with gusshotrods about how radical the approach needs to be to build something capable of SAFE supercar performance. My research led me to most of the same conclusions that he listed here. My biggest concern is the suspension. The original designs are 100% economy car suspension from the GM parts bin. Even the 88 redesign is a sports car suspension which was designed to be a cost effective upgrade. Cost ruled over performance. The way I see it, if you are going to build a short wheelbase car to run that fast the suspension had better be right - it's the main ingredient responsible for keeping you connected to the ground the way you planned to be.

On the other hand take a car like the C5. The goals were plain from the beginning. They wanted a world class sports car. You can take a chassis like this and do minor upgrades and tuning, add ridiculous amounts of horsepower and have at it. The cost was kept to a minimum for a specified level of performance, not vice versa. What cost had to be there was passed on to the consumer as the price of admission. The bottom line is performance has a price.

The one place I differ from gusshotrods is that I think there is actually a lot of potential in the space frame. Actually, that is the one component that has kept at least one Fiero in my driveway for the last eight years. I know it is somewhat heavy but everything comes at a price. What it offers over a tube-chassis race car like R Runner's IMSA car is a true street car feel. Don't get me wrong, I love cars like his - its raw, elemental, awesome! When you are talking about a true street car, things have to take a different approach. Sure, you can add enough to get a road car feel from the tube chassis car but by the time you get there you're weight advantage will be nullified. It's all about what you want. You have to decide what you want this thing to feel like going down the road. Do you want to feel like you're in the latest exotic from Italy, or in a purpose built American LeMans racer loosed on the street.

I read an article long ago about how manufacturers actually design the various elements of a car, including the main body structure, to resonate at a certain frequency. It said that each manufacturer actually tunes their cars, and that this is part of what tells your brain that you are in a so-and-so from model to model. Take different vehicles from the same manufacturer for rides and notice how they still say, "I'm a ______". The feel of the controls is another area where manufacturers design in brand indentity. Sit in different brand vehicles and play with the controls and note the differences.

My goal is to use a modified space frame as the core of my build. I want that familar GM "feel" to be at the core of my project. I am usually a stickler for less weight but sometimes there are more important issues. The factory suspension will suffice for mocking up the chassis, and some "low speed" road testing (mainly for integrity and feel). However, in the end I won't settle for anything less than a complete (front and rear as a package) system designed specifically for my application.

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Todd Perkins - the member formerly known as "perkidelic"
todd's hot rods

[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 12-29-2004).]

Fiero parts for sale: $2/lb.

yes, that could be a reasonable task....we are talking $20,000 USD right?
given....i have reached decent numbers and only put in about $25,000-$30,000 or so CDN...and that includes a rebuild and a half (fresh as of 2 months ago ) and a LOT or parts, custom work, reliability is in the car/work, AND includes the price of hte car itself and rims and paint.

im at about 400 whp and 500 wheel trq. at under 2700 lbs. id say....u do the math

gusshotrods - I forgot to ask why you didn't replicate the cabin shell in fiberglass instead of using the heavy steel unit? I had a car cut up exactly as you have there and that piece isn't very lightweight either. In 'glass one man could easily carry the shell around.

By taking molds of the outer shell you could produce a four-ply fiberglass replica that would allow you to keep the factory door seals, etc. It sounds like you intend to use factory bodywork, which could hang on the replica just like the original. I am going to make fiberglass replicas of the doors because with a full cage (with door bars) the steel doors are unnecessary.

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Todd Perkins - the member formerly known as "perkidelic"
todd's hot rods

I'm not done trimming yet. I doubt that whats left will weigh over 50 lbs, not counting the windshield. Body will not mount to stock mounts. Rear window will be smaller lexan and about six inches forward of stock location.

I still have my "cut-up" car. Last year I cut the cabin into four pieces to make it easier to store. I have left and right side sections that a door can be bolted to and closed. The rocker panels are removed except for the single layer of sheetmetal under the bottom of the door with the pinch weld. These are pretty light.

The two roof sections are where the weight is, which would definitely create a higher CG than one would think for such a low car. They are cut at the beltline in back and a few inches down the A-pillar in front. I guess the weight is for rollover.

That's why I figured a replica would be better for your project - you don't need rollover protection in the shell. Sounds like you are planning to remove the inner shell. Sounds like a lotta work. But then again, I like tearing stuff apart

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Todd Perkins - the member formerly known as "perkidelic"
todd's hot rods

Interesting question, and some real serious builds going on out there........for inspiration, ya'all might want to read Bubbajoexxx build up. That's one badass machine that I'm sure will seriously test those numbers!!!