It was a great day to drive to Illinois. I even got off the interstate before paing a toll. I can't post pictures so I'll email them to exoticse or if Archie wants he can post them. Talking to someone in person is always better than internet posts. I was enlightened to a couple facts that may have seemed like B/S if I had read it on the internet. The windows don't fit the way Archie needs them to. He built 20 something chops that are all the same. He could not send these windows to Madcurl and have madcurl bolt them in and be happy. They just don't fit. It would be the same as me ordering a new window for my Colorado and having to cut up the door because it couldn't go right in. I would be upset and Chevy would never get my buisness again. However, I never hid or at least I never tried to hide the modifications it took to get them to fit in my car. There is a vertical track that the roller rides in that will be your enemy. I had to space this track out about an inch. There is some factory adjustment that allowed it to come out farther. Then I also flattened the hook that holds the glass and shimmed the glass away from the regulator frame. This then caused issues with clearance. Rolling the windows up, the plastic clips would hit the door frame and required cutting. Rolling the windows down, the window would hit the impact beam and required cutting. Putting the door panel on, I now could not hook up the door lock because the glass would catch on the metal rod that goes to the key cylinder. I also realized today that I didn't put on one of the plastic plugs for the window. The glass now rubs on the felt instead of the plastic plug. This probably helped me and I didn't even realize I did it. The sad truth is there is no happy ending. Mike and Archie could go back and forth for eternity and never come to an agreement. I will however share my opinion, since I am probably the closest thing to a unbiased opinion that actually has experience installing these windows. These windows are useless to Archie from a buisness point of view. However, I did not see anything today that surprised me. I think they fit better than mine before I re-cut my car to match the windshield angle. If I had an Archie chop car and a set of Mikes windows and a couple days, I believe I could get them to fit. Pictures will get posted one way or the other. Archie and I took all the pictures together so nothing will be hidden and pushed to believe one way or the other. Archie was also very nice, even offered me lunch. It was a good day to take a road trip, I got to see a couple cool cars at Archie's, a pink fiero at a dealership and I didn't even have to use my AK, I gotta say it was a good day!

I forgot that you'd said you couldn't post pictures, I should have shown you how while you were here.

I'll post some pics tonight & explain what it is a picture of & you can confirm if my description is correct or not.

Archie

On with the show. Tony...we're wait'n ...

quote Originally posted by madcurl: On with the show. Tony...we're wait'n ...

Sorry but no pictures recieved as of yet.

I am leaving to go to our Central Florida Fieros meeting so if they come thru it won't be until later tonight.

joshua check your PMs

If you could have waited until tomorrow I could have drivin up to Archie’s so we could meet. It’s always fun go go up for a visit. I think you said it best when you said “Talking to someone in person is always better than internet posts”. It is to easy to, I believe the term is "It’s easy to read between the lines" sometimes I write things that come out different then they would in a face-to-face conversation.

Let me say one more time congratulation on building your own choptop. And being the #2 with glass windows. You were able to make the mods that it took to make them work. I really didn’t want to make those mods just to get glass.

I hope settles the whole thing………I do give Mike a lot of credit for actually getting glass windows made. I just think he went about selling them the wrong way. Archie came into the thread just to warn his customers that the windows won’t work {without major mods and sacrifice.} while Mike was reading between the lines and felt Archie was trying to hurt his business.

It really doesn’t matter now as there are only a couple of sets left to sell and he doesn’t plan on getting anymore.

And I do think Mike should apologize to Archie………

[This message has been edited by DL10 (edited 10-05-2006).]

quote Originally posted by exoticse: Sorry but no pictures recieved as of yet. I am leaving to go to our Central Florida Fieros meeting so if they come thru it won't be until later tonight.

Geezs, you've eatin pizza before, hehe.

quote Originally posted by joshua riedl: ... I got to see a couple cool cars at Archie's, a pink fiero at a dealership and I didn't even have to use my AK, I gotta say it was a good day!

Thanks for the Ice Cube reference, I'm laughing out loud

I hope this settles the issue, at least for now. Mike's windows are a great thing for the homebrewed chopper to have. Just build the car around them. That's what I intend to do.

Ok, so the 1st thing jushua & I did was to take a couple of pics of my side window in my car. He can verify that the fit around the window was even & that the window was against the seal evenly all the way around.

Here's 2 pics.....





Next, we took my window out of the car and compared the contour. Since my window has a lot more curve in it, we laid it on top of his window (his is the tinted one). Then after we aligned all 7 holes in the windows, we "rolled" the top window over onto the his window. When I say "rolled" that means that, without moving it left to right or up & down, joshua rolled one window on top of the other to bring the tops of the windows together.

that's jushua's hand holding it in place. Here's 4 pics.... you be the judge......









more to come........

Damn. This is better than watching Perry Mason, hehe ...

Anyone with windows want to sell them cause their scared of the differences? I'm looking at chopping my own. I have a local shop willing to do the task, they want the windows first. They've shown me pictures of a 1985 Monte Carlo SS they chopped 5 inches to match supplied windows. Maybe I can see if they have any digitals or maybe I can take a pic of the car its self if it's local.

When we started to do the "rolling" operation above, we noticed a large difference between the curve of the 2 windows. At least is was more than I expected it to be. So we decided to go back & take these pictures. We lined up the 7 holes with each other & pinched it down like we did before we "rolled" the window as explained above.

We actually measured the difference, if I remember correctly is was 4.5" between those windows which is 4.5" more curvature in my window. (Note: the measurement was 4.5" or 5.0" I don't remember, jushua is not working tonite so maybe he can verify for us)





After we noticed the large difference in curvature, I (half jokingly) said to jushua that I thought that the stock Fiero had more curvature than his window had. joshua responded that he wouldn't doubt it. So we decided to check it. We got a stock right side window from my window pile & checked it with his window using the same method as we did earlier. The stock window had more curvature so jushua's window is on the bottom again in these pictures........ That's about .75" (edited this distance from 1.25" to .75" as per Josh's recollection from his post below) more curvature in the stock window than what jushua's window has. 3 pics







Next up we try to fit his window in my car using 2 different methods to see if we can optimize it......... hang on.

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 10-06-2006).]

As a committee, we decided that there was 2 ways that we could check the side window fit into my car.

The 1st one was to bolt them in to the stock window mounting points just like all of my chop top cars have been. Because his window is not as curved as mine & because I wasn't willing to hack up all the window mounting points, seals, tracks etc. this method would not really show too much about the contour. We really thought about not even trying this method, but then we decided that 27 people would see some kind of conspiracy if we didn't do it. So we went ahead & did it.

We didn't take any shots comparing the contour because we agreed that, considering how far out the window stood, the angle you took the picture at would effect the appearance of the contour more than anything else. so the only real benifit of this method is to prove what jushus said in his opening statement & we can judge the 2 verticle lines on the window & how they fit into the opening.











I'm just posting this picture because I like the reflection in the window.



.....

The one thing I noticed, or think I noticed was when comparing a stock window to the chop window. The part above the dew wipe seemed the same as stock. It was below the dew wipe where the stock glass had more curvature. Archie's windows did have a lot more curveature, over 4.5 inches, and the stock windows was about 3/4 inch at the top edge.

OK, so in this next group of pictures, we did not have the window bolted in at all. We put it inside the door where it belongs, then closed the door and maneuvered it fore & aft & up & down & angled slightly to left or right to get the best fit we could find. jushua held it in place while I took the pictures. This method takes the curvature of the window out of the consideration & it does not pay any attention as to wether the window is square to the dew wipe or not so it could be twisted to the left or right & it is being held up by hand.

The one thing that jushua noted here was that the window "tucked in" to the seal in the front while it didn't quite touch the seal at the rear. jushua noted that that fact went along with the spacing & mounting changes he had to make to the window seals when he mounted his windows. We kinda agreed that his window must have more curvature at the front end than at the back end for it to fit like that. As I go back and look at some of the other pictures we took, there is evidence to support that theory.

These are the last of the pictures we took today of this subject.......









Archie

Now, it's obvious that your windows fit your chops better, so all I can add is that it's spelled "gnat."

I think it's up to the individual from here on out. I look at those pictures and think to myself, if I play with it long enough, I'll get a half inch. Other people will look at it and get turned off. I also do not feel I was lied to by Mike. He posted pictures of the windows not fitting his car and then posted more pictures after he made them fit his car. I knew it would take work and I was prepared to accept it. I can't thank Mike enough. Once my engine is done my car can be a daily driver. This wouldn't have been possible without him. Thanks Mike. and thanks to Archie for allowing the comparison on your car.

quote Originally posted by Archie: Now, I think I have the right to write a conclusion here. Many months ago F355spider announced that he was selling glass windows that would fit a 3" chop top "to a Natt's A$$" (He mis-spelled Gnat not me). Read the thread for yourself & you'll see what really happened https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/054790.html Now he claims that all those Texas boys use terms link "Natt's A$$" when they don't really mean that the item is THAT CLOSE to perfect. Too bad he didn't explain that to his window customers' 5 months ago. I warned my customers that those windows were not going to fit anywhere close to as good as Mike had advertised in our 3" chops. After that Mike & Stuart Lowery claimed that I was lying to my customers and that I was trying to use scare tactics to keep Mike from selling his windows. Mike has spent most of the last years calling me names & mis-quoting other things I said. At my count he has called me a liar more than 20 times this year alone. And in reality he has been the one lying every one of those times. Whenever he hasn't got an answer Stuart then steps up (like he's doing now) & continues the harassment until Mike can figure out some new names to call me. Resently Mike has claimed that I had promised to provide free glass windows to my customers. I never said that & he can't find a quote from me to prove that i did say that. But yet, he's been calling me a liar because the free windows haven't been passed out yet. I would submit that Mike has been the liar all along & that he's so obsessed with trying to hurt my reputation that he would say anything or hurl any insult or tell any lie, to meet his goal. I would suggest asking Mike for proof anytime he tries to make a statement of fact from here on out. I also think it's time for him to go harass someone else for a change. Mike, you're a hack & a liar. Get a life. Archie edit Gnat Thanks, now It's perfect

This is my last post here. But I do want to say this I have never lied about the windows I have as Joshua said showed every detail to the best of my abilities and never guarantied them to be a direct bolt in and always express the work to get them to fit,

Archie said they would not fit but they do with the adjustments needed they do work so him saying they would not fit is not correct. Archie is very good at twisting the truth and picking out things to turn the tables he does tell lies and a lot more people than I know that.

When I first told people here I did not like the guy because of his misleading People. I was told that is political suicide here but I do not care because I wanted to help others.

The thing Archie hates about me is I did do that and for that I am happy. Even though I did not have a Fiero I still did what I could to come on here when I could and see if anyone needs my help. Archie can say or twist it the way he wants to but I see these windows do work and that is what I thought. They were a good choice for people to build their own car and as you can see in the new chop they can fit a chop without adjustment to the door.
So you claim I tried to mislead people that is not true if the people that bought them would speak up they would tell you I never said they were a perfect fit so you are the one making something out of that and it is not true that you twist things around to make it look that way. Let us not forget I made these for my car and out of my kindness shared them to others some will argue I had to get 15 sets to get mine but the original set was paid for out of the tooling and I got spare sets out of the 15 so yes I wanted a spare set but I did not have to go through all the trouble to help others I did this out of the kindness of my heart and this is what I got for it.
Next you claim I called you names yes I did at first because you worked your magic and made me angry and I got caught up in your tactics then after words I apologized and have never called you names on here after that but you and your people continue to call me names this post proves it. When I say something and realize it was not right I apologize because I am a man and can admit when I am wrong you have never done this I can do as you and go through this forum and pick out all the times you got busted telling lies and call you on it you will see you went to something else and never once said oppss sorry I made a mistake or I was wrong to say that to me this tells everyone who the better person is.
As far as you saying you would have glass windows made and give them to your chop top owners you know it was wrote but what you also know is that several post in my thread have been removed and even the post I made when I was asked who does chops I told him you are the only one that does it professionally but you use plastic widows;
Yes the post that started all this and all I did was tell the truth then you attacked me for it. It is all gone it has been deleted so you ask this because you know it has been deleted. Will anyone else that read it remember it who knows but it does not matter because the proof is gone.
Every one knows I did what I could to help others that wanted it and that you hate this and there fore you have done what you could to stop it most have told me they could not believe I stuck around as long as I did most would not put up with it.
I am not perfect and I have made mistakes and I have even tried to apologize to people that I believe I have offended just so I could leave here with no hard feelings. That shows my character on the other hand you continue to lie to people and still have not admitted you have lied about me or apologized for any of it and this shows everyone your character so no explanation needed there.
So here it is, I take it, this is your explanation for your lie told about me selling the car before it was finished because I did not want to finish it. I hate we had to go through all of this crap to get the truth out but I could not sit back and let you lie about me again.

quote Originally posted by Archie: AS for what instructions Chris used, he'll have to tell you which ones he used. He couldn't tell me who's instructions he used when he was here. There are at least 2 other people who've posted pics of chops they were doing. But after looking at what he had done & comparing that to the cutting you did on your car https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/066331.html they do appear very similar. If the shoe fits, wear it. Archie

So in conclusion the windows can be made to fit and in my opinion is the best way to go and I would never have done it any different. Joshua has proof they worked in his car there is a chop being built now that has them in it with no modification to the track at all. I caught you lying and finally got you in your round about way to admit it.
You can continue to bash me and call me names and that will show who you are because I will not be here to defend myself or you can be a man and apologize admit you were wrong and let it all be in the past and get on with life. The choice is yours.
If any one ever needs my help most know how to contact me others can reach me through Joshua or Will.
Today is the end of it for me best wishes and God bless you all.
Michael

I never had a chop top and never will being all it does is ruin a perfectly good car. But I have saw both versions of chops with the glass and with the platic windows. And hands down, I would go with the glass windows if there was ever a chop for me. The chop might have to be custom fit to the windows but that beats having platic windows. The one chop I have seen from Archie, the windows dont fit right and have to be held out to roll the window up. Also when shutting the door, the window has to be held outward a bit. These are just a few things I really didnt like about the chop with plastic windows. My big quetion is, Cant Archie have glass windows made like Mike did and start chopping his cars to fit the windows? This would give the customer glass windows and the fitment of the windows would be alot better. This is just my opinion and an observation.

First off, we're talking about "apples vs. oranges" here. Just the idea of thinking that ALL CHOPTOP MADE AND PRODUCED ARE CREATED EQUAL IS ILLOGICAL and is a pipe dream at best.

From a "business" standpoint the idea is flawed iiregardless if producing the custom glass for humanitary reasons in helping the few 24 Archie choptop owner or homebrew. Why? Because, the only "choptops" that are under controlled conditions are the 24 choptops that are produced by Archie. It's a "day-in, day-out operation. That is just one of the reason's why Archie's choptops was never offered as a "kit."

As for all homebrews, can we honestly say that all "THE HOMEBREWS ARE CHOPPED, CUT, & WELDED the same? The answer is clearly-----no. Why? Too many variables with no "strict standards of operation." So "why" would anyone think that the windows would fit is beyond me? The "best" route would be to make a templete from one the 24 Archie's choptops vs. a homebrew for reasons already noted.

As for buying custom glass to which I have to spend my hard earned money, "They'd better fit to a gnat's behind or I'd pass on them." The same can be said of any item being procuced. VDC are a good example of this deciption or ambigouse wording to which they "SAY" THIER PRODUCT FITS and you end-up spending hundreds of dollors paying someone to install them or you're own hours in getting them to fit. Besides, choptops are not "most" people's cup of tea. Either you hate them or you love them. If you're going to produce custom glass, wouldn't make sence to go with the company that cranks them out on a regular basis???

Well I think all of this is getting a bit rediculous personally. This is not directed at any one person so please NO ONE TAKE OFFENSE. I just would like to state for the record why I got my car chopped by Archie and then bought Mike's windows.

First off, chopping a Fiero is not "ruining" it. That may be someones opinion, but to me slapping look fast parts on a car that actually goes slow is silly, and that is just my OPINION. I love the way a chopped Fiero looks. To me, if you take a stock Fiero, put nice wheels & tires on it, lower it, and chop it, it looks better than 90% of the crap being sold in the US market today.

Second, I tried to chop a Fiero myself and it was a LOT harder than it looks, which is why I turned right around and paid Archie to chop my Formula which he and his crew did perfectly. It was worth every damn dime I paid, and I really don't see how they make money doing this type of thing so I was happy to pay it. The lexan windows are fine IMO, and they are no more cheap looking than the plastic sail panels or the fastback window glass 1/2" away so aesthetics are not that much of an issue. Functionality is fine, the lexan (or polycarb) windows keep the rain, dust, etc out and you can see through them. I do have to manuever the windows a little when I shut the doors, and when I roll them up, but they will eventually conform to the shape they are in I have been told by several choptop owners. There are small scratches that do show up if you are looking at them in the sunshine, but those will polish out once the car is done getting body/paint/interior finished.

Third, I bought a set of Mike's windows because I saw them in his car and they looked nice. Also in Texas, without tinted windows the inside of your car gets super hot and there is added glare with non-tinted windows. NEW replacement windows for a Fiero are like $80-$100 bucks each so what Mike was charging for his windows was not that much more than a stock Fiero side glass. I was happy to pay this AND I saw the modifications Mike had to do to his car which were not as drastic as some may make it sound. Yes you have to modify the door, but considering you just hacked up the whole damn roof of the car up to chop the top it in the first place, it is not that big of a deal.

Lastly, my car is still getting some engine work done in Dallas so I have not got to put my windows in yet. As soon as I do, I will post the results here, and I will be unbiased in doing so, just as Archie and Josh were in their report. I really do wish everyone could get along and realize how trivial this issue really is. You hardly ever see hot rodders going at it about chopping old Fords up or stupid crap like this. We should all be encouraging each other for working on, modifying, saving, restoring, or doing whatever to these cars. I would like to think we are all here because we like Fieros. Also we should all remember that it is not so much about the car as it is getting together and sharing our enthusiasm and passion for the Fiero. This, after all, is why Cliff put the boards up in the first place.

-Will

[This message has been edited by Will-Martin (edited 10-07-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Will-Martin: I tried to chop a Fiero myself and it was a LOT harder than it looks, which is why I turned right around and paid Archie to chop my Formula which he and his crew did perfectly....

Well I bought Will's car that he chopped and it's not an easy thing to do. That car probably won't be finished any earlier than 2009. But when I do finish it Mike's windows will be in it. If I have to shape the car around the windows, then so be it.

But I didn't want to take Archie's work on #14 and try to re-work it which is why I'm not going to mess with the "plastic" windows in that car.

As for having to hold out the windows when they go up? I have to do that in my T-top. Any car with frameless windows are subject to all sorts of fit issues.

Now if only I had a windshield for my homebrewed chop top. I'm going to try an Orville style windshield, if only I had his mad welding skills.

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 10-06-2006).]

Holy Cow that curvature is something serious!

quote Originally posted by F355spider: As far as you saying you would have glass windows made and give them to your chop top owners you know it was wrote but what you also know is that several post in my thread have been removed and even the post I made when I was asked who does chops I told him you are the only one that does it professionally but you use plastic widows; Yes the post that started all this and all I did was tell the truth then you attacked me for it. It is all gone it has been deleted so you ask this because you know it has been deleted. Will anyone else that read it remember it who knows but it does not matter because the proof is gone.

Wait, now let me get this straight. So now we have a conspiracy between Cliff & I to make you look bad. You're telling us that Cliff, at my direction, deleted some of your posts that made you look like a good guy. And that I edited my post about free windows to make you look bad.

I don't think that anyone here will believe that Cliff would do that at the direction of anybody. It would also be easy for you to track my edits by reading the dates that appear in threads that were edited. Since the 1st I heard about those free windows was when you posted one of your rants in the other thread several days ago. All you'd have to do is look for a post from months ago that I edited resently.

Tell us your theory about the JFK conspiracy.

Archie

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 10-07-2006).]

Come on Archie admit it…. everyone knows you are Cliff, and Stumpy, Shaun, mustangbeware,, custom88 and several others. We know you have the power to change other peoples thought.

What. You meant to tell me that, Archie offered "FREE WINDOWS" to his customers and he didn't inform me??? [j/k]

Just like the ole' chat phrase from the Ohio Players, " Aw girl...please." If Archie every hinted or suggested "free" window in any which way or form, I'd be the free in line.

As far as I can recall, Archie never promised any glass windows, free or otherwise...

However, back on this thread on 3/28/2004, Archie was in discussions with a glass company to have windows made. I don't know the final results of those discussions.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20060206-1-033921-2.html

quote Well, I'm glad this subject came back up to the top, I wanted to update this several weeks ago but couldn't find it. I have contour forms, perimeter outlines etc. all done for our windows. The cost to make up a lot run of the windows is not exactly cheap & one mistake in ordering that lot run would have me sitting on 10 or 15 sets of windows that no one wants (see below for explaination of why people might find that they don't want them). So caution is important at this point. Right now I'm looking for another source for this process. Resently I did a survey of my Chop Top customers to determine if I should sell a kit for Chop Tops. Virtually all of the Chop Top customers responded that they jumped on the Chop Top idea because it was so exclusive. Most of them aren't too excited about everybody & his brother having one. You can look t the resent Lambo door threads and see a good reason for those kinds of thoughts from the Chop Top owners.So there will be no Chop Top Kits from me for now. That makes sitting on 10 or 15 sets of windows even more likely. Everybody gets all excited about things like this when they 1st come up. But considering the investment and the potential problems, the guy who is putting up the cash has to do the research to make sure it's going to work. I've found that this Bent glass place makes glass that is about 1/16" inch thicker than the original Fiero glass. That don't sound like much but let me try to explain what that 1/16" means. Let me try to explain what that 1/16" means and why I'm holding up on this for now. All of us have seen Stock Fieros with heavy Vertical scratches in the Glass side windows. Those scratches are caused by 2 pads welded into the doors on the outside right below the outer Dew Wipes. Those pads have some felt on them but are not adjustable and can't be removed because they are the pads that hold the window solid against the rubber seal around the door. Remove them & the window will leak. So now we know what causes the heavy scratches on the stock glass side windows on Fieros. Now 3 more factors become involved in a Chop Top situation. #1 the side windows in my Chop Top have a lot more curve in them & thus will ride even harder against those outside pads & will be even more inclined to scratch. #2 Because the side window attaches to the outside of the window mechanism, that extra 1/16" of window thickness will make an extra 1/16" of pressure against those outside pads that cause the scratches on Stock Fiero windows. #3 Those that already have Chop Tops should know that because of the extra curvature of the side windows, right now when the window is rolled down it just barely clears the inside of the side impact door beam. With anymore curvature or window thickness a modification may have to be made to the door beam to keep it from scratching the window. Yeah I know, it's kinda exciting when someone finds a web site for someone who says they can make this kind of item. But before someone jumps in there & buys 10 or 15 set, He has to do his own research. If I would have went out and had 10 or 15 sets of these windows made and sent sets to Curley & Rob & others. Then a few weeks later they might be on here complaining that the windows were scratching already. I would look like a total idiot & I would end up sitting on a large investment that no one wanted to use because they weren't properly engineered. So needless to say, I'm still working on it. Archie

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 10-07-2006).]

BUMP

Nobody got my "playing with it" joke?

quote Originally posted by joshua riedl: Nobody got my "playing with it" joke?

Actually I noticed it when you posted it.

I was going to ask (for reference only now) how long you had to play with it to get half an inch? But I wasn't sure you wrote it as a joke.

Archie

The History Channel

Curley, don't you know grave robbing is illegal... may this thread Rest In Peace.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Curley, don't you know grave robbing is illegal... may this thread Rest In Peace.

We have a few [home brews] who have shown interest in chopping their own Fiero. By rebumping this thread...it'll demonstrate some of the "issues" regarding chopping a Fiero at home. A "custom" window is part of the main issue regarding a choptop...homebrew or Archies'.

What's the qoute, " Those who don't remember the past are doomed to repeat it." Build and make your "chop" around the windows...not the other way around.

[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 02-18-2007).]

Add a pinch of salt and stir....

quote Originally posted by madcurl: We have a few [home brews] who have shown interest in chopping their own Fiero.

Bumping for a friend.

So are there any sort of windows that can be purchased? I would like to get a set so I can chop my Fiero to fit them.