Well to answer that question I suppose some pics are in order. I bought the car soley for the engine. But I am hoping to use parts like the aluminum radiator, MSD 7AL, and a few other things. The rest will get sold to make up for the purchase price. It has a quick change reaerend, High end trans, coilovers, and more.








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My sites
http://the-stickman.tripod.com

http://www.youtube.com/TheStickman

[This message has been edited by The_Stickman2 (edited 04-16-2008).]

lucky.... thats a cool motor, I need to hunt one down if I ever have the money to do it.

Errr? Did the 2-valve Super Duty ever really make 380/412? That HP to torque ratio is more like a 5L V8..

[This message has been edited by Steven Snyder (edited 03-14-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Steven Snyder: Errr? Did the 2-valve Super Duty ever really make 380/412? That HP to torque ratio is more like a 5L V8..

I've heard some of the race motors made more than 450hp. If you look at my site under heads you will see the "801" head. That is the same one as on this engine. The ports and valves are huge. I believe this engine is running 13.5-1 compresssion ratio. I may take that down some before putting it in the IMSA.

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My sites
http://the-stickman.tripod.com

http://www.youtube.com/TheStickman

Thats kinda funny, those newish supercharged ecotech motors are "trying" to make that kindof power. So cool.

Nice score on some rare parts!

You know I like the Iron Duke at least as much as the next guy, but that seller from ebay blew over 200 ft-lbs of smoke up your arse.

Before you say, "yeah but these numbers are legit because this engine can rev higher", understand:
Torque is not directly a function of RPM, it is a function of cylinder pressure. Cylinder pressure is determined primarily by cylinder filling and your choice of fuel. For a 2.5 liter engine WITH 100% volumetric efficiency , you can expect to make a max of about 170-180 ft-lbs. Where you make the 170-180 ft-lbs peak torque RPM-wise is a function of where the cam, induction, and exhaust work to provide you with 100% V.E.

When you are analyzing data, realize that peak volumetric efficiency, peak torque, and peak BMEP (brake mean effective pressure) are ALWAYS ALWAYS at the same operating point. In layman's terms, Where you fill the cylinder the most completely, you will have the most pressure, and the most pressure pushing down on the piston/crankshaft arm results in the greatest torque. Of course there are some weird exceptions like when you run a diesel and the flame front can't travel fast enough, but for the purposes of this discussion, what I have laid out above is relevant.

I encourage you to do a little bit of research on the range of BMEPs for naturally aspirated race engines, and then calculate what yours would be based on the sellers claims, and compare. You'd have to be pushing over 14lbs of boost to make these kind of numbers.

Chevy's high-tech LS7 engine has a BMEP of 168PSI, you'd need a BMEP of 251 PSI to make the 380/412. Current Nextel cup engines don't even touch that BMEP.

Bryson's turbo car is a good reference for this, with an engine of similar displacement.

Big flowing cylinder heads don't make more torque, they just let you make torque higher, as they don't inhibit cylinder filling at high RPM, and this is what generates big HP numbers. Effective cylinder filling at 7500 RPM is why the Celica engine can make 180HP yet only makes 130 lb-ft.


By the way I bought some of those 301 Pistons like you suggested, they seem like they'll be great for what I need.
I also just bought a new hydraulic roller camshaft that I'm sending out for a regrind
Got a Hedman Hedder...
and I am going to see if I can get ARP to make me a head stud kit for non-superduty Iron dukes in the M11 thread.

I envy your new toy!!!

quote Originally posted by The_Stickman2: I've heard some of the race motors made more than 450hp. If you look at my site under heads you will see the "801" head. That is the same one as on this engine. The ports and valves are huge. I believe this engine is running 13.5-1 compresssion ratio. I may take that down some before putting it in the IMSA.

They can make a huge amount of HP. But they didn't make over 200 or 250 ft lbs of torque.

Does this thing even have the right bellhousing? I thought some of them were SBC patterns, including the crank.

I definitely don't beleive that torque neither. Hope you put it in a race car as it probably will not be anything close to streetable. But still it is great to have a good piece of Pontiac history. Maybe get a PACE car and swap it in

That is freakin cool, ever play the game Dirt Track Racing? Full of those style cars.

What do those use for a frame, or is it totally custom?

[This message has been edited by Xanth (edited 03-14-2008).]

Here is a poster my neighbor up the street had for his Super Duty engine.

Here is the engine. He had it for sell along with his Indy.

[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 03-14-2008).]

Ok here is what I was told last night. It's a 3.1L engine, with 13.5-1 compression ratio. Forged crank, Super Duty Rare Race 801 Aluminum Head With Jesel Roller Rockers, 1.6 on intake & 1 .65 exhaust The valves are Titanium Vavles and springs, Pontiac Special Aluminum Intake with worked holley Carb. The intake is one I haven't seen before. It was a 4 barrel intake, but the made it a 2 barrel by adding a adapter plate and welding up the plenum to decrease the size and direct the flow to the runners better. It is the fwd bellhousing pattern, but probably the SBC flywheel bolt patternHopefully I will have the engine out this weekend. I will probably take the engine to my builder to knock the compression down. I don't want problems with Detonation or starting due to the high compression. I am thinking of 11 or 12-1 compression ratio should be safe. I also have to have my wife either build a new header or modify the existing one. The one that is one it now is rusty but very solid. I also hope to go EFI soon with this engine but a 4 barrel(once I hog out the plenum) will due till then.

quote Originally posted by The_Stickman2: I've heard some of the race motors made more than 450hp. If you look at my site under heads you will see the "801" head. That is the same one as on this engine. The ports and valves are huge. I believe this engine is running 13.5-1 compresssion ratio.

Originally posted by Oreif:

... As for SD4 power, The drag race car built by the Rod Shop hit 550hp normally aspirated using alcohol fuel. Vanderley Engineering use to build SD4's for the race teams and sell engines for street use. They started at 232hp for fuel injected and emission compliant 2.7L version and a 285hp with a 4-bbl carb non-emission compliant 2.7L (it had a larger cam and higher compression). It was around $10k for the 232hp version and $12K for the 285hp version. Not to mention they would build them to suit. You could get the engines in 2.5L, 2.7L. 3.0L, and 3.3L.


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3.4L S/C 87 GT www.fierosound.com
2002/2003/2004 World of Wheels Winner &
Multiple IASCA Stereo Award Winner

[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 03-14-2008).]

What is the Rod Shop and how in the hell are they getting 550HP NA out of that engine, even assuming it is a 3.3 liter? That would be like building a 400 cubic inch V8 that made 1100HP NA. That doesnt happen very often. I don't believe sprint car engines can attain that output level, and they have far fewer regulations compared to NASCAR (Nascar says only flat tappet lifters, one carb, etc etc)

I'd love to see the results of any work done on the dyno for a 300+ HP Iron Duke. At what RPM are they making 550 HP?

quote Originally posted by The_Stickman2: Ok here is what I was told last night. It's a 3.1L engine, with 13.5-1 compression ratio. Forged crank, Super Duty Rare Race 801 Aluminum Head With Jesel Roller Rockers, 1.6 on intake & 1 .65 exhaust The valves are Titanium Vavles and springs, Pontiac Special Aluminum Intake with worked holley Carb. The intake is one I haven't seen before. It was a 4 barrel intake, but the made it a 2 barrel by adding a adapter plate and welding up the plenum to decrease the size and direct the flow to the runners better. It is the fwd bellhousing pattern, but probably the SBC flywheel bolt patternHopefully I will have the engine out this weekend. I will probably take the engine to my builder to knock the compression down. I don't want problems with Detonation or starting due to the high compression. I am thinking of 11 or 12-1 compression ratio should be safe. I also have to have my wife either build a new header or modify the existing one. The one that is one it now is rusty but very solid. I also hope to go EFI soon with this engine but a 4 barrel(once I hog out the plenum) will due till then.

I expect it was converted to 2 barrel to meet class restrictions. Alot of dirt classes stipulate 2 barrel carbs. The fact is that the 4 barrel will work very well. You have to modify the accellerator pump circuit due to the small displacement, but that is a small and easy job. I know Scotty McLendon is using them in Florida and the 4 cylinder Ricer racers are using them. I expect if you get the 4 barrel dialed in you won't look back. If you need some help on the setup just sing out

Arn

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I couldn't find the original link Oreif quoted, but here's some others:

SD4 Track Stars - Hi-Performance Pontiac http://www.trifocus.net/~fw...azines/hpp-sdts.html
Interesting SD4 articles https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...030204-1-023048.html
SD4 Supplement https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...060206-1-052708.html
IMSA and Indy SD4 http://www.geocities.com/yellow101/perfplus.html
SD4 pictures http://mywebpage.netscape.c...ierost4rsc/pics.html

Fiero racing list http://sports.groups.yahoo....oup/FieroRacingList/

[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 03-15-2008).]

I have got to see this stuff in person. Hey Stick, are you going to be around on tomorrow (actually today now) afternoon or Sunday. If you are, just pm me your address and I'll stop over.

Bob

quote Originally posted by rjblaze: I have got to see this stuff in person. Hey Stick, are you going to be around on tomorrow (actually today now) afternoon or Sunday. If you are, just pm me your address and I'll stop over. Bob

Yup I should be around. Check your PM's. Hope to try and get it running tomorrow.

quote Originally posted by KurtAKX: blew over 200 ft-lbs of smoke up your arse. I envy your new toy!!!

Sounds painful

quote Originally posted by KurtAKX: What is the Rod Shop and how in the hell are they getting 550HP NA out of that engine, even assuming it is a 3.3 liter? That would be like building a 400 cubic inch V8 that made 1100HP NA. That doesnt happen very often. I don't believe sprint car engines can attain that output level, and they have far fewer regulations compared to NASCAR (Nascar says only flat tappet lifters, one carb, etc etc) I'd love to see the results of any work done on the dyno for a 300+ HP Iron Duke. At what RPM are they making 550 HP?

Oops, Sorry. The picture is of a "done up" Super Duty in a S-10 truck that I found online. It is NOT the Rod Shop 550hp SD4 Orief is talking about.

The 3.3L has a 4.00" bore and a 3.9375" stoke. That was the biggest stroker crank available. Only by increasing the bore could you get an even larger displacement.

[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 03-15-2008).]

You got that thing apart yet or what?

quote Originally posted by KurtAKX: What is the Rod Shop and how in the hell are they getting 550HP NA out of that engine, even assuming it is a 3.3 liter? That would be like building a 400 cubic inch V8 that made 1100HP NA. That doesnt happen very often. I don't believe sprint car engines can attain that output level, and they have far fewer regulations compared to NASCAR (Nascar says only flat tappet lifters, one carb, etc etc) I'd love to see the results of any work done on the dyno for a 300+ HP Iron Duke. At what RPM are they making 550 HP?

The actual article with the engine specs are in the "Pontiac Performance Plus" magazine that is basically the SD4 builders guide. It has the specs of the real Pace car SD4 engine and the IMSA race engine specs. I have one of the magazines printed in 1986.

quote Originally posted by KurtAKX: You got that thing apart yet or what?

Well partially. The engine seems to be corroded inside from sitting. I did find one thing that is very interesting. I knew it has expensive jessel roller rockers. BUT I never realized they were shaft ,ounted rather than stud mounted. It's a very trick set-up. The block is the later version with the needle cam bearings. Much better than my early cast SD block. I am almost definately going to use the dry sump system. I have enough wire braided hose to do my whole car, including to the Accusump, remote filters, and oild cooler in the right side quarter panel. There are a ton of new guages to use in the IMSA and I am going to polish and use the huge aluminum radiator. As for stuff that I'm not gonna use and can sell. There is the Winters quick change rear with aluminum axle tubes. They sell for like $1500 new. Then there is the Muncie M22 transmission. I have seen even higher prices for those. I also have the shocks, wheels, seat, suspension pieces, and bare chassis that I can sell. If I am lucky I will be making alot of what I paid for the entire car. I hope to have the engine out this week. And as soon as I get the brake lines fixed in my wagon I will be taking it to an engine builder to have it rebuilt. I will be getting new pistons and rings. And I will knock the compression ratio down to 11 or 12-1 to make it more streetable. It will also get new bottom end bearings and whatever else it needs to make it like new. It should be able to stay over 300 hp. Atleast I hope so.

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My sites
http://the-stickman.tripod.com

http://www.youtube.com/TheStickman

UGH, My bad.

I just pulled out the magazine. The 550hp is NOT normally aspirated, It is supercharged and has never been installed in a car. It was used by Pontiac Motorsports as a testbed. They were going to put it in a Firebird. It was going to be for Diversified Glass' "Superbird" But they ended up just installing a 272hp 2.7L SD4 into it so it could be street legal to drive. Diversified Glass made a widebody kit for Firebirds as well as Fiero's.

Diversified Glass is the company that made the SD4 body kit and the IMSA widebody kits. DG sold their molds to IRM, who then sold them to Fiero Warehouse.

The Rod Shop drag car is 3.0L 346hp@7500 rpm.

One of these days I should run all the GM part numbers and see what can still be found at GM.
They have a list of all the parts used and who made them (if aftermarket)

WOW Do you know GM made racing axles for Fiero manual transaxle's?!?!?!!?
And guess what, They STILL sell them! Per GM website a Pontiac dealership in Corpus Christie Texas has 2 sets in stock!

GM PART # 7845336
CATEGORY: All
PACK QTY: 1
CORE CHARGE: $0.00
GM LIST: $514.29
OUR PRICE: $374.40


DESCRIPTION: AXLE ASM, RACE-RH


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GM PART # 7845337
CATEGORY: All
PACK QTY: 1
CORE CHARGE: $0.00
GM LIST: $514.29
OUR PRICE: $374.40


DESCRIPTION: AXLE ASM, RACE-LH

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 03-25-2008).]

quote Originally posted by The_Stickman2: It should be able to stay over 300 hp. Atleast I hope so.

As long as you are running a cam that is in the meat of its operating range just over 7000 RPM you should have no problem attaining this goal with 12:1 compression.

That's neat that you've got shaft rockers. Is that setup still a 1.75ish rocker, or is it bumped down to 1.6 with a correspondingly bigger cam to make up for it. I saw a SD4 shaft setup one time but it had a 1.6ish ratio.

[This message has been edited by KurtAKX (edited 03-25-2008).]

quote Originally posted by KurtAKX: As long as you are running a cam that is in the meat of its operating range just over 7000 RPM you should have no problem attaining this goal with 12:1 compression. That's neat that you've got shaft rockers. Is that setup still a 1.75ish rocker, or is it bumped down to 1.6 with a correspondingly bigger cam to make up for it. I saw a SD4 shaft setup one time but it had a 1.6ish ratio.

I was told the engine was made to run in the 6800rpm range so that should be good then. They are 1.6 on the intake and 1.5something on the exhaust. From what I was told the cam is the biggest they could get. So again that makes sense. I got the radiator out tonight. And made one hell of a mess. That radiator doesn't have a petcock on it so I had to take the lower radiator hose off. The fluid then proceeded to run down the belly pan.

The racing axles don't fit production cars.

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62 Buick Special
86 GT, 5-Speed
87 GT, 3.4l DOHC Turbo 415 WHP, 11.9 @ 118
88 Toyota Supra Turbo

quote Originally posted by Matt Hawkins: The racing axles don't fit production cars.

WHy? Because of the transmission or the hubs?

According to the article they did use a getrag 5-spd with webster gears but there is also a race hub.
Since it goes onto the IMSA race car the only other reason I could see them not fitting production would be if the wheelbase is wider on the racecar.
Matt, Do you know why they won't fit production cars?

The axle will mot fit due to the wider width of the rear track,but really due to the fact that the IMSA race cars had suspension uprights that used a larger hub/bearing assembly that had larger drive splines.I have a pair that came with my chassis when I bought it.

Dave D.

quote Originally posted by Dave Deerson: The axle will mot fit due to the wider width of the rear track,but really due to the fact that the IMSA race cars had suspension uprights that used a larger hub/bearing assembly that had larger drive splines.I have a pair that came with my chassis when I bought it. Dave D.

Ahh, Thanks for clearing that up.

quote Originally posted by Chris Hodson: Thats kinda funny, those newish supercharged ecotech motors are "trying" to make that kindof power. So cool.

"Trying" while staying completely streetable with decent gas mileage.

Not necessarily an apples to apples comparison...

not to mention making emissions standards.

Well I worked on the late model/modified today and it was all good news bad news. I got the Muncie M22 4 spd out finally hoping to put it right on Ebay and make some cash back only to find the tail housing cracked. What does it take to do that? We pulled the engine out and intially bolted the chains to the head and ripped a helicoil out of the exhaust side of the head. We found a really trick clutch and flywheel conbination.







But the flywheel wasn't tight so the bolt holes are all buggered up now. I may have to have a new one made. Maybe I can use this one as a pattern. Then it too forever to get the dry sump pan off due to it's design and found a beautiful crank with aluminum rods and pistons.







So all in all it was both a good and a bad day. Now that the engine is out though I can take it to the engine shop and have them start on this engine. BTW here is a pic of the trick shaft mounted Jessel rockers.

[This message has been edited by The_Stickman2 (edited 04-16-2008).]

the rock crusher is still worth putting on ebay , iirc from my 1969 z28 days the tailshaft is easily replaced

hell of an engine there

1) I hate you for finding a FWD Superduty block, in a RWD app no less!

2) Those really don't look like aluminum rods to me. I bet a magnet sticks to them. Better for you since AL fatigues with use anyway.

3) Is the stroke of that crank stamped on there somewhere?

4) Are you sure its a Muncie and not a Saginaw?

Enviously,
Kurt

[This message has been edited by KurtAKX (edited 04-16-2008).]

quote Originally posted by KurtAKX: 1) I hate you for finding a FWD Superduty block, in a RWD app no less! 2) Those really don't look like aluminum rods to me. I bet a magnet sticks to them. Better for you since AL fatigues with use anyway. 3) Is the stroke of that crank stamped on there somewhere? 4) Are you sure its a Muncie and not a Saginaw? Enviously, Kurt

Kurt believe it or not when I looked at the car the first time and put my money down that was the one thing I forgot to look at. I had no idea it would fit till I got it home. I was seriously worried about having a flywheel that fit. Now I have one that would probably work in a Fiero and it may be junk. You are probably right. It was late, they looked like aluminum in color. So that's what I went with. I will check them with a magnet and the crank for numbers later. And yup it's a Muncie M22. I checked the numbers. Funny thing is though the case is from 69 and the tail housing is from 65.

IF they sell E-85 in your area you may be able to keep the 13.5 /1 compression
as the E-85 alkie is almost like what the motor was built to run on
down side is it will NOT give decent mileage or big power

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Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

quote Originally posted by ray b: IF they sell E-85 in your area you may be able to keep the 13.5 /1 compression as the E-85 alkie is almost like what the motor was built to run on down side is it will NOT give decent mileage or big power

Nope. Hell I have only seen one place that sells E10. Besides I know it's seized because I can't turn it over with a wrench. So that will need to be fixed anyway. Hoping it is just from corrosion. That way too I know I have good pistons and rings.