At one time I had thought about making a fiero electric by using a a small battery pack and a diesel generator, I was told at the time that it would not work as well as I had hoped because of the generator of losses from making electricity from a generator and other problems with electric motors (mostly batteries and motor controllers).
I had come up with an idea to use motors (one on each wheel) and a generator still and upon a small amount of research I have found that my idea (almost exactly what I wanted to do) has been done and works extremely well.
The short version, this company makes electric motors that have built in controllers, low RPM's (2K max), built in wheel bearings, and regenerative braking.
What it does is elminates the need for brakes, transmission, differential, axles, wheel bearings, etc because you mount the motor to the suspension (Where the wheel bearing was) and mount the wheel directly to the motor (which is why it turns so few RPM's, so you can have it direct 1:1 ratio).
the claims they make are; no mechanical brakes 85% of all power used to turn the motors is caught back with the engine braking 0-62 in 4.5 seconds top speed around 140 MPH and around 80 MPG using the generator only to recharge the batteries.
I am very seriously considering pursuing this as an option for my car because of everything I had planned to replace before I started driving it again (wheels bearings, brake lines, all kinds of things that are very important for safety that would go bad on a car from sitting for several years). I havn't gotten a price on a motor yet, mostly because I can't get the store I call to give me a straight price, (they want to email me all the info instead of just telling me the price so whatever), I've got an idea on a generator, and I've got a guesstimate on batteries but we will see.
what I would like to do if I could; get two motors for the rear, a small battery pack, and a smallish generator and just get the idea started with the fiero.
What I lack; a knowlegde of electricity strong enough to really start making this come together. So far I can look at what PML has used and find things with similar ratings but I don't know that I'd be able to replicate there set-up especially since I'm already thinking of doing things differently with a diesel generator, and just two motors.
Why I am posting this is to see if I can get any idea's and help from anyone one here. For now I think I will stop and go on about my day and see if anyone has any ideas they would like to share with me.
one last thing, as mentioned, I don't know very much about electricity, so anything relevant to this idea would be great (even something like showing me what kind of generator I would need to get to power two of those motors).
-Fish
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11:35 AM
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jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
The problem with using electric motors and generators is that there is no free lunch in physics. If you are careful you can increase efficiency like the current crop of hybrids, but it's not a simple thing to do.
Every time you convert energy there are losses, so your diesel engine that you use to generate the electricity is going to have to be larger than it would be if you connected it right up to the wheels if you want a pure electic.
In other words, larger than an Iron duke.
That's why the Prius can only run in pure electric for a few miles and less than 30 mph or so. To generate and store enough energy to run in pure electric 100% it would need a much bigger motor and more batteries and then it would be heavier, and need a bigger still motor and more batteries. You see the problem?
The only advantage is that you would gain some efficiencies by not wasting energy idling the engine at stop lights, (it would be stored in the batteries) and you could recapture some energy with regnerative braking. That is how the hybrids are able to use a smaller gasoline engine.
But it is a very highly optimized gas engine, and the transmission is just short of alien technology. If you make is sloppy and inefficient it's not going to work very well if at all.
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 07-06-2007).]
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11:42 AM
RyecoAaron Junior Member
Posts: 5 From: Beloit, Wisconsin Registered: Oct 2006
I have been pestering that company for awhile. Before that, There was a company that made in-wheel motors for busses, but they were about 10x what I wanted to spend. I long ago gave up the dream of manufacturing my own hybrid. The line between waste and gain is too thin for me to tinker with. Instead, I will go full electric. The company I work for is doing R&D on ultracapacitors in lieu of tons of batteries for power storage. They have a new method for increasing the energy capacity per unit weight... theoretically. They got funding in January so hopefully in 3 years we will have a working prototype in a small-bodied car. I have offered a Fiero chassis, but I think they will likely go with a Civic. It's not my grant, I'm a geneticist / synthetic biochemist. But I do have one project with the doc in charge of the UC grant. Exciting stuff if you don't mind waiting. Right now the company is neck deep in fuel cell development. Hopefully this will all come to fruition soon.
I long ago gave up the dream of manufacturing my own hybrid. The line between waste and gain is too thin for me to tinker with.
I agree. That's what I was trying to say earlier, that if you are not careful your final hybrid design will be heavier, and less efficient than if you had just put in a gasoline engine.
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04:59 PM
Jul 7th, 2007
Chris Hodson Member
Posts: 3095 From: Carpentersville Registered: Aug 2006
This is all really cool stuff. Really expensive. Im starting out extremely small. Not even with a fiero. A ten speed lol! When i was 12 i did this all with duct tape and glue and it kinda worked.... now 20 i have a bit better understanding how to go about building things. Im cutting out the cylinder where the bearings for the pedals fit in and welding in a tube a starter will fit into and hooking a sprocket to that. Ill build a battery box on top the back wheel. I think it will work. I may need a slightly smaller sprocket. Harbor frieght sells solar panel chargers for cars. Ill hook a few up on the bike so i can just let it sit outside all day when i sleep and when its time for me to go to work ill just hop on and ride it to work 2 min away from home lol.
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01:53 AM
D B Cooper Member
Posts: 3141 From: East Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2005
It would take some refining, but diesel-electric is probably the single most effective design concept out there. Hey, it works fine in a submarine. Why not a Fiero ? Ideally, the diesel engine will end up being just enough horsepower to maintain the desired top speed (plus make up for efficiency losses) and the batteries will end up just large enough to store enough charge for acceleration (and hold the power regenerated in deceleration). Probably something like a 40 hp atomic 4 diesel would work well.
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02:09 AM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
Ideally, the diesel engine will end up being just enough horsepower to maintain the desired top speed (plus make up for efficiency losses) and the batteries will end up just large enough to store enough charge for acceleration (and hold the power regenerated in deceleration). Probably something like a 40 hp atomic 4 diesel would work well.
This is impossible. That 40 hp motor can't generate enough electricity to maintain the speed of the car. Think about it. If you connected the 40 hp diesel motor directly to the wheels, that would be similar to a generator/battery system that is 100% efficient. Which is impossible. So it's going to be like having a 30 hp engine. The perfomance is going to suck really bad.
As for the submarine example, diesel electric submarines were obsolete 50 years ago. Those old submarines would generate enough electricity to charge the batteries for use while submerged, because there was no oxygen suppliy underwater to run the diesel engine. This has almost nothing in common with your Fiero example.
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 07-07-2007).]
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02:30 AM
hyperv6 Member
Posts: 6099 From: Clinton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2003
If it was so easy the MFG's would not all be spending Billions in develpping their own cars.
The electronics are here but not cheap or easy to find on your own. Most are custom builds for big bucks.
Add in that Battery tech still is not here yet. GM is working with Contenental on a new system for the Volt for 2009> It will be an improvment but I expect there will still have some shortcomings like the Prius.
Fact of Life on Hybirds.
We need better Batteries.
The Prius if driven normally in general do not get as good of milage as promised. The accelerater needs to be feathered.
The Impact Electric GM had was not ready for the general public contrary to a movie and some's opinion. Most do not realize it was only leased as a publicity gimmick in only warm places like S Cal and Arizona. The cars would have never held a charge in Alberta.
Also as long as Gas or Desiel cars are cheaper to buy own and maintain Hybrids will still lag behind. The big problem is most new expensive technology always appears on a Mercedes or Cadillac. Most buyers of these kinds of cars are not looking or care about Hybrid tech. The people who are just don't have the money to buy an expensive car or can mantain it.
The story of the oil companies buying the car companies off is one of the oldest lies. Do you really thing Ford, GM and Chrysler could be paid off with enough money when they could be reaping great market shares and 100's of Billions in profits with a new car that can give you everyting a gas car can and do it with a battery? Let alone the fact all three are losing so much money their future is somewhat in danger.
Keep the gas engine in the Fiero and just wait till one of the large companies breaks through and has a well sorted car ready for market. It will save you a lot of money time and greif.
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08:09 AM
Richjk21 Member
Posts: 2228 From: Central Square NY, USA Registered: Feb 2006
This is impossible. That 40 hp motor can't generate enough electricity to maintain the speed of the car. Think about it. If you connected the 40 hp diesel motor directly to the wheels, that would be similar to a generator/battery system that is 100% efficient. Which is impossible. So it's going to be like having a 30 hp engine. The perfomance is going to suck really bad.
As for the submarine example, diesel electric submarines were obsolete 50 years ago. Those old submarines would generate enough electricity to charge the batteries for use while submerged, because there was no oxygen suppliy underwater to run the diesel engine. This has almost nothing in common with your Fiero example.
YOU NEED TO READ THERE SETUP THAT IS ALREADY WORKING BEFORE YOU START TALKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
they have a mini cooper using 4 of there motors using a 250CC 21ish HP (they are british and everything is rated in Nm, and KW instead of HP and torque, but it makes 15 KW/21ish HP) gas generator, with 80 lithium ion batteries, and get 80 MPG with only using the generator and run 0-60 in 4.5 seconds.
why? several reasons, they claim there motors recapture 85%!!! of all energy used from acceleration during braking, that's MASSIVELY higher than anything else I"ve heard. they are so effective at stopping the car that the motors are the ONLY brakes on it! They have motors with built in electronics that they claim are much higher in effeciency than anything else out there, and thirdly the mount there motors where the wheel bearing used to be, so the wheels are mounted directly to the motors = EXTREMELY low drivetrain losses.
THEY CLAIM 80 MPG, how can you tell me this won't work? especially if I just use two out of the four motors they have?
Based off of there math they use a generator that makes 20KW @ 250v 80amps.
If I use two motors why would I not be able to decrease that size down to 10KW or so? I mean, don't get me wrong I still have to find out how much two motors will draw but if I can make just enough with 10KW (they're using 20KW with 4 so I may be able to get away with it) I can get a diesel generator that's not too huge. Plus, DO NOT FORGET, if my batteries where compeletely drained, and I had just enough power to run the motors I could still recapture quite a bit of energy every time I hit the brakes to recharge the batteries.
by the way, a 10KW diesel generator weighs around 150 lbs, and is about 400 CC. they usually only make 250v @ 35-45 amps, but I don't know if cutting the motors in half means I can cut the electricity in half but if I can, terrific.
EVERYONE ELSE THAT WANTS IN ON THIS THREAD, READ THE LINKS BEFORE YOU POST OR I WILL BEAT YOU (not really, but do read the links a lot of this stuff is very new)
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09:09 AM
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tesmith66 Member
Posts: 7355 From: Jerseyville, IL Registered: Sep 2001
Diesel locomotives are electric driven. They use giant diesel engines to generate electricity that powers traction motors that move all of that weight. They're pretty big, though.
Chrysler had a concept car back in the mid-90's that used a small diesel engine to generate electricity to power two 150 HP wheel motors. The articles I read about it all said it was extremely quick and powerful, Whatever happened to that?
------------------ 1986 SE 350 V8
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09:15 AM
cooguyfish Member
Posts: 2658 From: Hamilton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2002
O, and someone else brought it up as well, chevy has a concept car that has the same idea. small battery pack, one motor, and a gas or diesel generator. on straight electricity they claim roughly 40 mile range, on electricity and generator for up to 60 miles them claim the equivalent of 150 MPG and on the highway using the generator they claim 640 miles around 50 MPG. course, there's is slower than dog poo but the key difference here is the chevy volt uses one motor and a transmission (or at least some differential, etc) with mechanical brakes which when mechanical brakes are used obviously you lose all power generated (I'm sure there motor catches back but if the brakes are assisting it's going to get a lot less back)
That would be versus having 4 indenpendant motors with no transimission and the motors being the brakes capturing back 85%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! of the power used to get up to speed in the first place.
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09:45 AM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15526 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
Until battery technology develops lightweight storage cells, the electric car wil never come to be anything more than a short distance around town commuter vehicle. The car shown in the link in this post is essentially a novelty -an greeen large golf cart Electric cars typically have a driving capacity of about 50 miles and that's w/o any air conditioning or heat. In contrast fuel cells can be used to generate electricity and can power a vehicle for 100's of miles before refilling.
------------------ 87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds 2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress Engine Controls, PCM goodies, re-programming & odd electronics stuff " I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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10:17 AM
cooguyfish Member
Posts: 2658 From: Hamilton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2002
Until battery technology develops lightweight storage cells, the electric car wil never come to be anything more than a short distance around town commuter vehicle. The car shown in the link in this post is essentially a novelty -an greeen large golf cart Electric cars typically have a driving capacity of about 50 miles and that's w/o any air conditioning or heat. In contrast fuel cells can be used to generate electricity and can power a vehicle for 100's of miles before refilling.
so what about the generator that is in the car? they claim 80 MPG using only the generator so I would say that even if it only had a 3 gallon tank, it'd still be able to go, o, 240 miles +/- however hard they are on it
as far as lightweight materials, with there motors, generator, and battery pack the gain about 400 lbs, granted, that's substaintial, but the were using a car with a significantly lighter motor than a fiero, and possibly a lighter transmission as well. Regardless, if you gained the exact same amount of weight that they did, you'd be talking about a fiero that weighs roughly what a northstar with an auto does. those seem to drive fairly well so I don't think it would be the end of the world.
Jscott, I thought of a point I'd like to share with you and perhaps you can tell me if my thinking is flawed. You say that a generator will have losses because of the conversion from fuel, to power, to electricity, which I won't argue with because I know that it's true. you're point being that if you were to do this you'd be better off using the diesel motor only and driving it like normal, but I thought of something I'm not sure that you have. If you use a diesel engine, you are going to have to use a transmission, which means you are going to lose roughly 10-20% of the power that engine makes through the tranny...(depending on if it's manual, auto, 2wd or 4wd and obviously a fiero is 2wd but work with me here) BUT, there set-up uses no transmission of any kind. Litterally they should lose no more than 1% of the power those motors make getting to the tires, since the tires are litterally bolted to the motors themselves, so there already you are regaining 10-20% of you fuel effeciency back. combine that with how effecient electric motrs are (they claim 95% at part throttle with the lowest being 85%), and again, combine that with the fact that they are reclaiming 85% of the power generated back in braking and there you have it.
Dennis, you bring up a point that I had previously forgotten to mention. Supposing that I can get a generator that can supply power to the motors, I am only interested in getting enough batteries to get about a 30-40 mile range, and using the generator as a back-up if I don't get to where I'm going. and again, if I only have a generator big enough to power the motors, I will still be able to recharge the batteries as I drive because at some point I will be sitting at a stoplight, I won't be running wide open all the time and I would tend to believe that those motors would use less power than the generator makes if you are only running 10% throttle (Which I could be wrong on this since I don't know that for sure about electric motors), and at some point I will also be using the brakes, thereby regaining 85% of the power I JUST GENERATED which could then go straight to the batteries.
My goals, since it's relavant 30-40 mile range on just batteries smallish generator that makes just enough to power the motors at wide open throttle no mechanical brakes (I'd like to think that two motors could still stop a fiero reasonably well even if they are back brakes only) and it doesn't have to be blisteringly fast, I will settle for being faster than a stock v6 manual fiero (I'd prefer faster but if two motors only make it that fast than what are you going to do?)
I also have been looking at lithium ion polymer batteries for it, or possibly just lithium ions (Li-poly are supposed to be decently lighter). I'm not using any thing else like Ni-cd or ni-mh and definately not lead acid.
ONE last point, I'd prefer people who are going to naysay, unless you know something I don't and care to back it up with something scientific, don't tell me why it can't be done. it's already been done, I showed you the car, if you aren't capable of reasoning out that if it's already been done it can be duplicated then I don't want to hear it. However, what I would like is to hear who it can be replicated, how if I just use two motors I should be able to get away with X less batteries than they used, or I could fine a good capacitor to assist the batteries from time to time at WWW.whatever.com website you know, or where to find good batteries at (I've found a few sites but inexpensive is good too).
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11:52 AM
cooguyfish Member
Posts: 2658 From: Hamilton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2002
The car shown in the link in this post is essentially a novelty -an greeen large golf cart Electric cars typically have a driving capacity of about 50 miles and that's w/o any air conditioning or heat.
by the way, can you show me another golf cart that can do 0-62 in 4.5 seconds, I'd be interested to know what they know as well.
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11:53 AM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
As for the submarine example, diesel electric submarines were obsolete 50 years ago. Those old submarines would generate enough electricity to charge the batteries for use while submerged, because there was no oxygen suppliy underwater to run the diesel engine. This has almost nothing in common with your Fiero example.
And the Diesel Engines took up 20 feet of the ship and batteries were stored EVERYWHERE! Not to mention the demand loads to turn a ship screw and run a few electric lights were modest compared to the demands we place on a car in traffic.
[This message has been edited by Toddster (edited 07-07-2007).]
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12:03 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
What I lack; a knowlegde of electricity strong enough to really start making this come together.
-Fish
You said it yourself, you don't have a strong electrical knowledge. I'm not about to try and educate you, but if were as easy as you suggest we would see electric cars all over the road. Aside from the conspiracy theories, it's not as easy as you suggest.
Regenerative braking helps in stop and go driving, but does nothing for cruise. A typical car uses 40 - 50 hp to cruise down the highway to overcome wind resistance, internal friction and roling resistance. So your electric generator has to be bigger than that, (to account for losses) so you need at least a 70 to 80 hp generator or your batteries are going to drain pretty quick.
The difficulty in building an electric car or hybrid is that gasoline, (or diesel) contain a HUGE amount of energy. If you try to store the energy needed in batteries, (or generate it on board) it's very difficult. 400 pounds of batteries have about the same energy as a gallon of gas.
And those little Honda generators that everyone seems to think can generate the electricity on the fly are not going to cut it. Just think about it, if your generator only has a 10 to 15 hp engine how much electricity can it make? Less than 10 to 15 hp of electricity. True electric motors are more efficient, and even if you drive the wheels directly with no transmission, you are doing it with less 10 to 15 hp. To achieve similar perfomance you need much bigger motors, and much more and better batteries, (which don't exist).
If you have a technical solution to these problems, you will be a billionaire instantly.
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 07-07-2007).]
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01:13 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
Gasoline contains 34.8 megajoules per liter of energy
That's 131 Megajoules per US gallon.
That's 36.4 kilowatt hours of energy per US gallon
A US gallon of gas weighs 6.25 pounds at 72 degrees F or 2.84 kg
The most powerful lithium ion batteries contain 200 watt-hours per kilogram
The amount of energy in a lithium ion battery equivalent (by weight) to gasoline is 568 watt-hours
That is 36,400 watt hours in the 1 gallon of gasoline compared to 568 watt hours in the lithium ion batteries....
Or 64 times more energy by weight in the gasoline.
Now do you see my point???
The only reason electric cars are feasible at all is because of the efficiencies you claim, (regenerative braking, direct drive, increased efficiency of the motor). But the raw physics of the situation requires more energy than you seem to realize. You can't store it in any known batteries, and you can't generate it on the fly with anything less than a gasoline engine the size of an iron duke.
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 07-07-2007).]
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01:22 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
On the other hand, I have given a lot of though to how you could build a Fiero Hybrid.
Here's how I would do it...
I would keep the iron duke in back but I would couple it to a 100 kilowatt generator in addtion to the regular transmission.
I would modify the front suspension such that the front wheels could be direct driven by electric motors. Then I would stuff Li-Ion batteries into every nook and cranny of the car to store as much energy as possible. Then you could apply all the efficiencies, (regenerative braking, generation of electricity on the fly and while idling) and still use gas only once the batteries are drained.
I don't think that my generator would be strong to power full electric during cruise, but it could provide enough load sharing to allow a Fiero to get 40+ mpg on the highway.
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01:59 PM
Jul 10th, 2007
cooguyfish Member
Posts: 2658 From: Hamilton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2002
I've found something interesting I'd like to share.
First, on the PML website I linked to there is another car company that is getting ready to build a supercar based off the PML motors. In there description of what they are doing they mention using altairnano's nanosafe batteries in this supercar.
Upon a little research I have found the following. There is another company called phoenix that is building SUT's and SUV's and is using altairnano's battery pack. They claim a lot from these batteries so I will post what I found.
The 35 and 70 kWh NanoSafe packs provide sufficient power and energy for a fleet vehicle to travel up to 130 or 250 miles, respectively, with a top speed of more than 100 mph. Both NanoSafe battery packs can be recharged in less than 10 minutes using an industrial 480 volt battery charging platform.
The NanoSafe battery packs can also be charged over longer periods of time when using typical 120 or 240 volt power sources. An on-board charger is standard equipment for both the Phoenix SUT and SUV vehicles.
NOW, it also says that the 10 packs that phoneix bought cost $750K HOWEVER, later in the thread someone found this and posted it
quote
I just saw this post on The Energy Blog. I'll quote it here in its entirety, since it answers the $75,000 battery question, and is kind of funny in a peevish way...
NO, the battery packs do NOT cost $75,000 apiece. They cost approximately $14,000 each. Most of the $750,000 was for engineering service fees performed by Altair in engineering the batteries and packs for the vehicles Phoenix is using. So far, every single forum has committed this confusion. Isn't the internet just grand? It can spread more ignorance in less time than a boatload of gossipy old maids ever could. Just like TV. It was going to make every citizen well informed. Over 80% of these folks think we've been visited by aliens. And you want these bozos sitting on a jury and deciding your fate?
There is a lot of other interesting information but I will let people read through it.
At any rate, while 14K is a bit over my budget it's not totally undoable, "IF" these batteries are as awesome as they claim to be.
So, what do we think of these batteries?
[This message has been edited by cooguyfish (edited 07-10-2007).]
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06:35 PM
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jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
No doubt that battery technology can be significantly advanced given the time and money for research. I am not trying to sound too negative, because I would kill to have an electric car.
But if you crunch the numbers, the 35 kwh pack has the energy potential of about One gallon of gas. The 70 kwh pack is about 2 gallons of gas.
Like I said earlier, the thing that makes electric cars possible at all is that the electric motor will extract far more useful work out of that energy, (like the advertised 136 miles) ,compared to the 20 to 40 miles like you would expect from burning one gallon of gas.
That's also why burning gas to generate the electricity on the fly only compounds the problem, you have the mechanical losses of a gas burning engine, added to the conversion losses from the generator, then you expect that energy to be stored or used in the electric motor and be more efficient?. In most cases it's more efficient to just mate the gas engine to the wheels.
A hybrid achieves it's efficiency from using each engine where they are better, gas at highway cruise, and electric for stop and go. But it's a razor thin edge and the best hybrids are only slightly more efficient than the best Diesel powered cars.
The real benefit of the electric car is to use renewable energy stored in an as yet to be invented super battery that will store hundreds of kwh.
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 07-10-2007).]
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11:12 PM
Jul 11th, 2007
Whuffo Member
Posts: 3000 From: San Jose, CA Registered: Jul 2003
A diesel-electric system is one of the most efficient ways to generate motive power - but it's only appropriate in large installations.
In a car like a Fiero - the engine drives the wheels directly. Putting a generator and electric motor between the engine and the wheels doesn't magically create something from nothing; the power still comes from the engine - but now it gets converted to electricity and back again (with losses at each conversion) and it takes more power to move the car because you're carrying the extra weight of the generator and electric motor.
Current hybrid systems include a small battery pack and do all kinds of clever tricks to recover normally wasted energy; these systems do get better mileage, but it's still a case of all the power comes from the engine - and then gets converted back and forth before driving the wheels.
Many of the clever tricks used in hybrid cars are equally applicable to non-hybrid cars. This could lead to even greater efficiency; why carry electric motors, batteries and a generator around? Unfortunately, some of the most effective of those clever tricks are accepted in hybrid vehicles but would not be readily accepted on a "normal" vehicle.
Take tires for example: The Prius has special E-code low rolling resistance tires on it. They allow the Prius to get another 2 MPG - and also allow the Prius to win the Top Gear "Comedy Handling Award". Nobody seems to complain that their Prius handles badly, but if you put that kind of tires on your Fiero would you be happy enough with the additional MPG to live with the mediocre handling they'd provide?
Hybrid "systems" are built up out of compromises like that one. It's those compromises that allow hybrids to give better gas mileage - more so than the fancy motor / generator system and battery pack.
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04:48 AM
Chris Hodson Member
Posts: 3095 From: Carpentersville Registered: Aug 2006
Why use gas or diesel? Veggy OIL! We can grow it in the USA, and at the moment fast food places have to pay a fee to get rid of it and that makes it free to whoever wants to filter it its just kinda tricky using it in the winter. Im not exactly sure how it pertains to the topic but... cheap fuel? Not as bad for the environment. Rudolf diesel was thrown in the pond right before he was about to sign something that would have made all of our us subs run off of peanut oil. I say whatever is being used as a generator should run on veggy oil
ALSO attach a wind turbine on the hood of the car. Solar panels on the decklid
kidding..This is a good thread. Does it have to be a fiero though? What about a sandrail. much lighter.
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05:03 AM
RCR Member
Posts: 4416 From: Shelby Twp Mi Registered: Sep 2002
I don't know how feasible it would ultimately be, but I would be happy with a 50-60 mile range. I'd use it to commute everyday and recharge it while I was working.
Bob
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12:25 PM
Gokart Mozart Member
Posts: 12143 From: Metro Detroit Registered: Mar 2003
Ferdinand Porsche joined the Vienna based factory Jakob Lohner & Co and their first design, unveiled in 1898, was the "System Lohner-Porsche", a carriage-like car driven by two electric motors, directly fitted to the front wheels, and powered by batteries. This drive train construction was easily expanded to four-wheel drive, by simply mounting two more electric motors to the rear wheels as well, and indeed such a specimen was ordered by Englishman E.W. Hart in 1900. In december of that year the car was presented at the Paris World Exhibition under the name Toujours-Contente. Even though this one-off vehicle had been commissioned for the purposes of racing and record-breaking, the 1,800 kg of lead acid batteries it required, graphically illustrated the limits of this powertrain concept. Although it "showed wonderful speed when it was allowed to sprint", the weight of its huge battery pack meant that it was singularly reluctant to climb hills. Still employed by Lohner, Porsche reached the logical conclusion and in 1901 introduced the 'Mixte' vehicle/transmission concept: instead of a massive battery-pack, an internal combustion engine was fitted to a generator to drive the electric Hub motors and (for vehicle reliability) a small battery pack. This way Porsche had created the first Petroleum electric hybrid vehicle on record, although since sufficiently reliable gears and couplings weren't available at the time, he chose to make it a series-hybrid, an arrangement currently more common in diesel-electric or turbo-electric railway locomotives than automobiles. Although over 300 of the Lohner-Porsche chassis were sold until 1906, most of them were two-wheel drive—either front- or rear-wheel driven trucks, buses and fire-engines. No further four-wheel-drive passenger cars were manufactured, however some buses were fitted with it. The up to 56 km/h (35 mph) fast carriages broke several Austrian speed records, and also won the Exelberg Rally in 1901 with Porsche himself piloting a front-wheel drive hybrid specimen. It was later upgraded with more powerful engines from Daimler and Panhard, which proved to be enough to post more speed records. In 1905, Porsche was recognized with the Poetting prize as Austria's most outstanding automotive engineer.
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04:44 PM
Jul 12th, 2007
cooguyfish Member
Posts: 2658 From: Hamilton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2002
But if you crunch the numbers, the 35 kwh pack has the energy potential of about One gallon of gas. The 70 kwh pack is about 2 gallons of gas.
Like I said earlier, the thing that makes electric cars possible at all is that the electric motor will extract far more useful work out of that energy, (like the advertised 136 miles) ,compared to the 20 to 40 miles like you would expect from burning one gallon of gas.
Question, when you burn one gallon of gas in a generator (or a gallon of diesel as I'm more interested in diesel) you say that the gallon of gas holds 35.x kwh of electricity, how much of that 35 kwh actually comes back out as electricity?
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08:44 AM
cooguyfish Member
Posts: 2658 From: Hamilton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2002
I am assuming that when a diesel generator says that it makes 6kwh hours that I can use that in my math, if that be the case I have some math I'd like to run past to see what if anything I may be wrong about.
that battery pack holds 35 KWH of power, if say a car could go 140 miles on a charge (which by the way, that's an SUV, I would imagine that a smaller car like a fiero would go further on a charge but since that's speculation we'll save it for later)
if a diesel generator makes 6Kwh continuous (6500max) then it would take roughly 5.83 hours to charge the pack (I'm just assuming it's as easy as 35 KWH divided by 6 KWH)
The generator I looked at had a 4 gallon tank and runs 10 hours on it (i've seen higher but since I don't remember there specs and I don't have time to find them we'll use this for now) which means that it burns .4's of a gallon in 1 hour, which if you multiply .4 * 5.83 you get 2.332 gallons to make 35 KWH.
If you go 140 miles on a charge, and use 2.332 that equates to 60.03
My first question is, is my math incorrect in some way?
I still have yet to find out any information on the motors themselves but I think this is a good start
Thoughts?
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09:00 AM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
I am assuming that when a diesel generator says that it makes 6kwh hours that I can use that in my math, if that be the case I have some math I'd like to run past to see what if anything I may be wrong about.
that battery pack holds 35 KWH of power, if say a car could go 140 miles on a charge (which by the way, that's an SUV, I would imagine that a smaller car like a fiero would go further on a charge but since that's speculation we'll save it for later)
if a diesel generator makes 6Kwh continuous (6500max) then it would take roughly 5.83 hours to charge the pack (I'm just assuming it's as easy as 35 KWH divided by 6 KWH)
The generator I looked at had a 4 gallon tank and runs 10 hours on it (i've seen higher but since I don't remember there specs and I don't have time to find them we'll use this for now) which means that it burns .4's of a gallon in 1 hour, which if you multiply .4 * 5.83 you get 2.332 gallons to make 35 KWH.
If you go 140 miles on a charge, and use 2.332 that equates to 60.03
My first question is, is my math incorrect in some way?
I still have yet to find out any information on the motors themselves but I think this is a good start
Thoughts?
I'm glad to see you crunching the numbers, because that's when you see how difficult an engineering problem this really is.
For your first question, the engegy potential of gas is about 35 kwh, and although it is burned stoichiemetrically the amount that actually is converted into forward motion of the car is probalby less than 30%
Let's say your gas car is getting 40 miles per gallon, (a pretty generous amount) that would be 35 kwh/40 miles or 875 watts per mile.
The truck in this example gets 35 kwh/ 140 miles or 275 watts per mile. The difference is due to the less efficiency of the gas engine.
So if you put a gallon of gas in your gas powered generator you would get about 11 kwh by my method...which is close to the 15 kwh you predicted by your method, (2.332 gallons to make 35 KWH). Which makes sense because my method also accounts for the mechanical losses in the transmission, etc.
You need to be careful about your units... a Kilowatt-hour is quantity of electricity. That is what the electric company charges you for...I pay about 12 cents per kilowatt-hour.
A kilowatt is a magnitude, the generator can generate 6 kilowatts continuous, so in one hour the quantity of electricity would be 6 kilowatt-hours.
Using the truck example again, at 275 watts per mile, at 60 miles and hour, (to make the math easy) in one hour you would use 16.5 kwh. Since the generator can only make 6 kw per hour, your generator needs to be about three times larger to be able to keep up.
And that's steady state. The acceleration loads are much higher, maybe another 3 to 5 times higher. Regernative braking can recover some of that, if your battery back is big enough, but maybe you can see why generating the electricity on the fly is not such a great idea. By the time you are done yor gas generator is larger than the gasoline engine would be to power the same car.
The Prius has a 57 kw gasoline engine and a 50 kw electric motor, yet the Prius is not able to generate enough electricity to run in pure electric mode above about 30 mph and only for a few miles before the batteries are drained.
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 07-12-2007).]
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11:22 AM
Jul 14th, 2007
cooguyfish Member
Posts: 2658 From: Hamilton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2002
I have a question on electric motors. you mention that the prius has a 50 KW motor, would knowing how many KW the motor makes help in anyway to know how much that motor will draw when being used? if it does, the big motors make 120KW (at about 140 MPH though, but that's the peak) and the smallest motor makes 40 KW.
the thought had crossed my mind (for power and effeciency) to have to big motors in the back and two small motors in the front. With the small motors being used for brakes/using just one to drive the car (if that's enough power to physically pull the car).
Initially, cost being a concern, I may just go with two big motors out back until I can afford smaller motors but we'll see.
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07:55 AM
FierOmar Member
Posts: 1644 From: Glendale, California, USA Registered: Dec 2001
The Phoenix and the electro Mini concepts smell a bit like a Dale. Never heard of the Dale? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dale_(automobile) It came shortly after the 73 oil embargo that had people in long lines at gas stations.
As jscott said the current diesel technology seems to be almost as efficient as the hybrids (at what I believe is a significantly lower cost). At around the time of the second gas crisis (approx. 1978), GM (an perhaps some others) offered a V8 converted to diesel... didn't help the diesel image too much.
IMHO, any system will likely be little more than a novelty unless it is a viable economic alternative to the existing systems. The fact is that most people are interested in cheap (or economical) transportation. Most of those that don't care about the cost, don't worry about the cost of gas either.
Moreover, while the regenerative / no mechanical brake concept sounds nice, I wouldn't want to be explaining to a jury my reason for decommissioning my brake system after plowing into a school bus.
I looked at the possibility of doing a conversion to a pure electric. I was primarily looking at an around town grocery getter for running local errands... a commuter with 30-45 mile range would be adequate, particularly since there are charging stations at some destinations. Longer range is possible, but at a cost.
FWIW, I quickly eliminated the Fiero as a potential donor for several reasons, including limited interior room, limited cargo space, etc. Ultimately decided that an early VW Rabbit or Dodge Omni would be more practical. Also thought that a Nissan Pulsar NX would be a good candidate since the hatchback can be easily swapped for a sport back giving a significant increase in cargo room; or the hatch can be removed along with the T-tops for a relatively nice sunny day cruiser. (There are probably plenty of other models that would have fit my parameters, but sadly, the Fiero simply was not one of them.)
In any event, when I ran the numbers, it just didn't make economic sense, at least not with the cost of electricity in my area. With the cost of the conversion (even without A/C,), the added cost of insurance, and the replacement life of the batteries, I could not see any reason to change. Now, if I had a fixed work location with a recharging location, it might be a different result.
My point is that the project would likely be cost prohibitive... did you say that the battery pack is only $14,000 each? Ouch!
For the moment Toyota (and perhaps to a lesser extent GM, Ford and Honda) seem to have found a reasonable balance in their respective hybrids. I think I will let them spend the millions needed for R&D.
But, If you want a little less fuel consumption on your Prius, there is a plug-in conversion that will significantly increase the gas mileage. http://www.edrivesystems.com/
Is the EDrive system cost effective? I think the jury is still out on this one.
------------------ FierOmar
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10:51 AM
PFF
System Bot
cooguyfish Member
Posts: 2658 From: Hamilton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2002
I don't know if this is relevant but I think that it is. I'll just quote it.
" The Super capacitors are sized to hold the full energy of the vehicle kinetic energy at 70mph. This is around 700kj. So as the vehicle speed increases we maintain "space" in the capacitors to absorb the regenerated energy from braking to stop from this speed."
I'm more interested in the fact that it says that it uses 700kj at 70. What is a kj? and is it relevant to how much these motors draw?
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11:37 AM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
Cooguyfish, I hope you build your electric/hybrid Fiero because it would be a cool project and fun to watch. But as FieroOmar and myself have been telling you it will be very difficult to build a practical electric/hybrid car. Even if you do, it would take decades to recover the cost spend on building it.
I looked into doing a pure electric conversion and it would have cost over $10K for the conversion. Gas would have to go to $20 a gallon or I would wait 20 years before I would see a return on my investment.
If your motor makes 40 kw then it will take at least that much to power it, but the losses due to inefficiency makes it take a little more. Luckily electric motors are very efficient, and generate little waste heat, (compared to a gas engine). So it might only take 50 kw to run it at peak load...still even if you had the huge 35 kwh battery pack, that motor would drain it in about 40 minutes or give you a range of about 40 miles. And that's using those super efficient expensive batteries. Real world batteries would give you a range of about 20 miles. Cool but not very practical.
Okay so I am going to give an electricity lesson -
Energy is measured in a couple of ways. Luckily this is one area the US actually uses the metric system and makes it easier.
Voltage is a measure of electric potential (think of it as pressure) Amperage is a measure of current, (think flow) Watts are a measure of power, (think ability to do work)
Watts = Volts x Amps
A kilo watt is 1000 watts. But a watt is just a magtitude, (as I indicated earlier)
To get to energy, you need the amount of work done in a certain amount of time)
Energy = Work x time or
the common unit of energy is watt -hour = number of watts used in 1 hour
In the metric system the standard unit of time is the second...so the work required to produce the power of one watt continuoulsy for one second is called a watt-second...
This quatity of energy is called a Joule, after James Prescott Joule. It's just a watt-hour divided by 3600.
This is a very small amount of energy, so it's more common to talk of kilojoules or megajoules.
1 kiloJoule = 0.27778 watt-hours
so 700 kj = 194.446 watt-hours or 0.194 kwh A very small amount in the real world
This is a quantity of energy, so what I think they are saying is that the super capacitors are capable of converting all the kinetic energy of the vehcle moving at 70 mph (1/2 * mass * velocity squared) back into electricty (kj)
I didn't chack the math, but the real advantage is that they can charge very quickly so you are able to capture all the energy, versus the very small amount of charge you can capture into the batteries over that small amount of time.
This would be a good thing as super capaitor technology improves. By the way, capacitors are the only known devices that store electricity. Batteries store chemical energy and convert it on the fly, that's one reason they are so crappy, because those chemical reactions only happen so fast and are inefficient when side reactions occur. The capaitors can accept or release all their charge at once. Eventually all the side reactions convert the battery into something other than what it's supposed to be and it's dead.
All units of energy can be converted to others, This might also be a good time to see how much energy is 1.21 Gigawatts
1,210,000,000 watts or about the generating capaity of the Sir Adam Beck#2 Hydroelectrc generating plant on the Niagara River.
The producers of "Back to the Future" didn't realize they were saying "Jigawatts" wrong, they thought that was how it was pronounced.
All we need now is Mr Fusion and we wouldn't be having this conversation.
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 07-14-2007).]
I have been pestering that company for awhile. Before that, There was a company that made in-wheel motors for busses, but they were about 10x what I wanted to spend. I long ago gave up the dream of manufacturing my own hybrid. The line between waste and gain is too thin for me to tinker with. Instead, I will go full electric. The company I work for is doing R&D on ultracapacitors in lieu of tons of batteries for power storage. They have a new method for increasing the energy capacity per unit weight... theoretically. They got funding in January so hopefully in 3 years we will have a working prototype in a small-bodied car. I have offered a Fiero chassis, but I think they will likely go with a Civic. It's not my grant, I'm a geneticist / synthetic biochemist. But I do have one project with the doc in charge of the UC grant. Exciting stuff if you don't mind waiting. Right now the company is neck deep in fuel cell development. Hopefully this will all come to fruition soon.
You happen to remember the name of that co that had those 'wheel motors'? Would come in handy for a project i have coming next summer. ( and i didnt feel like machining my own motors )
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05:03 PM
Chris Hodson Member
Posts: 3095 From: Carpentersville Registered: Aug 2006
Originally posted by jscott1: I looked into doing a pure electric conversion and it would have cost over $10K for the conversion. Gas would have to go to $20 a gallon or I would wait 20 years before I would see a return on my investment.
That's very close to what I had calculated... and that was using a base chassis that I could have bought for $500 or less (a very nice 4 door Rabbit with a manual trans and dead engine). No A/C to extend range and reduce cost.
I had considered using 12 volt deep cell batteries since it takes fewer to get to the desired voltage. However, as I recall, the range is compromised even though the vehicle weighs less.
Originally posted by jscott1: Cooguyfish, I hope you build your electric/hybrid Fiero because it would be a cool project and fun to watch. But as FieroOmar and myself have been telling you it will be very difficult to build a practical electric/hybrid car. Even if you do, it would take decades to recover the cost spend on building it.
I looked into doing a pure electric conversion and it would have cost over $10K for the conversion. Gas would have to go to $20 a gallon or I would wait 20 years before I would see a return on my investment.
There are other things to consider for the cost portion. For one, the motor/trans/brakes/engine management/ everything else that needs replaced on my project fiero will cost in the vicinity of 8-10K for it to be what I want and safe enough to run on a race track.
Having said that, if I can replace the motor, trans, brakes, wheel bearings, engine management, etc, etc with a set of motors, then not only would it be easier but it would become more cost effective (and by cost effective I mean vs. using a gas motor and such). Not that spending a lot of money will be cheap but with all the parts that would be replaced you can factor that against the price of the electric components. Plus, anyone who mods a fiero knows going in that you are not going to get any of that money back out of it...
quote
Originally posted by jscott1: If your motor makes 40 kw then it will take at least that much to power it, but the losses due to inefficiency makes it take a little more. Luckily electric motors are very efficient, and generate little waste heat, (compared to a gas engine). So it might only take 50 kw to run it at peak load...still even if you had the huge 35 kwh battery pack, that motor would drain it in about 40 minutes or give you a range of about 40 miles. And that's using those super efficient expensive batteries. Real world batteries would give you a range of about 20 miles. Cool but not very practical.
Let me ask this, is it safe to say that how much power the motor makes over the RPM range I can approximate how much power it will take to run them (roughly) if I convert it from nm to kw? Further, as I mentioned earlier the 40KW motor won't make 40KW until about 145 mph, according to my calculations, at 60 MPH the 40 KW motor would be making roughly 28 KW, I don't know how much that helps, or if my math is even right but I thought I'd add it.
For now that would be all
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06:16 PM
cooguyfish Member
Posts: 2658 From: Hamilton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2002
I just wanted to add, on the cost side of things, I look at this as something along the lines of doing a SBC swap and replacing almost all the braking components.
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06:29 PM
87GT_97114 Member
Posts: 566 From: Dayton, Oregon, USA Registered: Mar 2005