Do you ever think we will realy see all electric cars or even ones that run on hydrogen. I think not the big oil dont want it the car company dont want it even the fed goverment dont realy want them where are they going to get the money from the gas tax. It is to bad that they all lie with a smile and tell you they are going to do somthing but never do I have that same felling again. I like how they talk about it so hard to make hydrogen cheap well there are ways to make it and after your intial expensse it would be cheap using solar panels or sterling engine to make electricity to split water well tell me why and what you think

When I was considering a large wind generator for my island I looked at a hydrogen generator setup. It was $50,000. I have storage tanks that should hold compressed hydrogen and thought it might be possible. The up front costs were way too much for me. It's not as simple as just putting your generator wires into water. The huge wind generators I see on the hills near my island are currently the cheapest new energy available, and there is still the possibility of a breakthrough in solar cell cost. When I see a Texas oil man promoting wind energy, it gives me hope. Our elected government figures are too stupid or bought and paid for to count on anything from there. Every time we have an election I'm totally amazed at the only choices we have out of three hundred million people to vote for. I still think that we have the best government in the world. What a sad statement that is huh?

Yes Boon has a great plan but you dont see the goerment ralying around hlm. My hope is the new president will do what he said on energy not just another mouth pice and we do have the a great country

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[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 01-08-2009).]

thing i have found to make electricty from the sun is the sterling engine it works on presure differance it would turn a generator and it is more efficant than using sollar panells and this engine has been around for a few hundred years . i have seen other cheap ways to make elctricty to make hydrogen . I have even made hydrogen its not hard but it will requier alot of electricty thats why you need to build a electric power plant that uses a cheap energy like the sun or wind.

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 01-07-2009).]

quote Originally posted by engine man: Do you ever think we will realy see all electric cars ...

Here is a picture of a commercially successful all-electric car, a 1917 Detroit Electric, that is still being driven on the street today. See this thread for lots more information.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 01-07-2009).]

Nope. Electricity as a source of energy for personal movement, just doesn't work. There are too many losses in the production, transportation, and storage of electricity.

Simple fact to remember:
There is NO such thing as a free lunch.

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My Car Site
www.flexyourrights.com
Just say NO!! to Automatic Transmissions!!

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[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 01-08-2009).]

engine man, When I looked at the sterling engine it had the efficiencies you talk about, but does require a tracking parabolic dish reflector. You can see that there is a lot of mechanical in this system which would require maintenance and repair plus I would imagine a limited supply of sterling engine models. I would like to play with one though. Cool concepts! I studied solar in college in 1980 and then went into the business immediately. It was premature. Back then they were saying that solar cells would be competitive with fossil fuels when they reached $2 a watt. The last time I looked they were $4 a watt in 2008 dollars so we're there. Nano technology is now being exploited in solar cells and holds great promise. Since solar cells just lay there and make electricity with no moving parts I think they hold the most promise. Efficiency is increasing and production costs are coming down. I agree, wind and solar are the obvious answers to the sustainable lifestyle we desire.

any decent solar power system needs solar tracking.

quote Originally posted by Primaris: Nope. Electricity as a source of energy for personal movement, just doesn't work. There are too many losses in the production, transportation, and storage of electricity. Simple fact to remember: There is NO such thing as a free lunch.

Yes there is. It's called the Sun, and it happens to be the only free source of energy there is. How you employ that energy is guaranteed to have losses, just as Jazzman said, but the advantage is that you're not continually paying for that resource. The up-front costs for a battery powered vehicle recharged with solar panels can be enormous, but not having to pay for it every time you "refill" your car is where the huge immediate advantage over fossil fuels comes in, and longer term advantages include not having to maintain the numerous parts that Jazzman mentioned above. You may have already seen this, but if you haven't, take a look at this electric Fiero, and this LiFePO4 Fiero.

The means to be more efficient and leave fossil fuels completely is here, but since the government can't tax the usage of the Sun, it hasn't been a popular route (at least that's my opinion), and therefore, the up front costs are horribly gi-normous. I would LOVE to have the solar setup that guy has in the first link I posted above...

I'm not quite sure I follow your logic on the losses in production or transportation, but the losses (via heat) in storage of that electricity can be/are actually used to maintain optimal battery pack temperature in both charging and discharging, that loss can be counted as a necessary evil.

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Journal of a concept: http://southeastfieros.com >>> Build Thread >>> Parts thread (for project funding)

[This message has been edited by fieroboom (edited 01-07-2009).]

Most residential solar panels are not tracking. Even many large systems are not. Tracking will increase the output of a solar panel by 50% and any concentrating system will have to be a tracking system. A tracking system will cost more to install and require maintenance and repair. I think that in the future we will have solar cells so cheap that tracking will not be required.

well lets face it the car companies arnt going to realy push this they wont have all that service buisness oil companies hate it cant sell there product goverment lies and say they want it but they lose taxes it just seems funy you can have a car named tesla thats fast and will go 200 miles on a charge but the big three cant build one that only will go 40 miles some thing wrong there

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 01-07-2009).]

I guess we are going to ignore the fact that most of the electricity comes from coal, oil, or gas, the high voltage that carry that electricity lines can loose about 30% over long distances. It is more for low voltage lines. The heat the batteries give off when being charged/discharged that is wasted also.

Solar? Ok the energy from the sun is free, and is heating up the earth not man, but the amount of space needed for solar panels would be about the size of North Dakota. By the way fieroboom you your self stated the huge purchase cost of the solar panels. So no free lunch. Plus don't for get the glass gets scratched and dirty. So someone has to pay for maintenance. A household 200 watt solar panel is ~$1100

The batteries do not store any where near the amount of energy as is in a comparable amount of gasoline. So an electric car is going to be extremely heavy. Weight is waste when you are trying to accelerate an object. Plus there are huge risks with lithium batteries, disposal concerns with any battery, and huge purchase costs. Show me a battery that can get me 20 miles and is the same size as a gallon of gas. So no free lunch here.

Wind generators, kill migratory birds like a Cuisinart. No free lunch.

Electric motors break.

Let the market decide. You are the market. If you want an electric vehicle don't buy a gas powered one. Can't do it because you have X reason. Move, bike, walk, bus, car pool, etc. It is not the job a corporation to create what people don't want. A corporations only obligation is to maximize shareholders profit. Right now the market has decided gas is the way.

While I don't care if my car is powered by electricity, wind, corn, or cow farts I do want a level of performance. I don't have any brand loyalty, nor do I care what the name is. They are tools to me. I just want my tool to be a sharp edged sword vs. a broken, chipped, rusty, backwards hammer. I'd love a sub 2000lbs. hydrogen fueled internal combustion engine powered sports car. The reason I like this is hydrogen contains more energy than gasoline. Even with this there are hydrogen storage issues, which I am willing to live with. But the no free lunch rears its ugly head. What about all the water that will be coming out of the millions of tail pipes? It sure will make driving in the snow belt much more interesting. Erosion issues, who knows?
------------------
My Car Site
www.flexyourrights.com
Just say NO!! to Automatic Transmissions!!

Edit: 1-8-09
My reply above was directed mostly at "Jazzman" and "Fieroboom" replies. Plus to further explain the "no free lunch." I don't know why "Jazzman" deleted his posts as they were well written and on topic, but the deletion of them cause my reply to seem a bit "off"? lol.

[This message has been edited by Primaris (edited 01-08-2009).]

Gas is with us for a good while longer.

Too many people buy into the myth of big oil owning the car companies. If they did they would not be bankrupt and working on Electric Cars.

The truth is the oil companies are investing into Hydrogen and other technologys as they know they need to survive in the future they will need to expand their products.

Shell Oil is investing with GM in Hydrogen and is working on installing filling stations in some limited areas. LA and Washington.

As for Electric cars the Volt will be an advancement but cost is still a factor. Even $5 gas is cheap in the long run and as long as oil is the cheapest fuel and the technology is not cheap we will continue with as normal fuel.

Batteries are the biggest problem as even the new ones are still not what we need. They are better but still fall short in range in normal driving. They also are expensive. Remember the Volt will be over $40K and not everone will be able to afford one even with a tax break. Until more cars like this are made will the prices fall. The first buyers will have to bite the bullet and pay the extra cost.

The key to a Hybrid to make it the car has to drive like a normal car and have no limitations. Range must be there and perfromace to be accepted by the average driver.

Even today the Prius has to be driven very easy to get the top mileage. If driven hard it fairs no better mileage wise than many other Gas and Desiel powered cars.

As for what would help? If the goverment would attack this like they did going to the moon. Set some lofty goals and help fund industry to develope technology to reach these goals. This not only will spur a technology growth but also will help industry recover and employ more people in a hard economic time.

The Future pres seems to want to fund public works programs and they did not work in the 30's so I would expect them not to improve thing much today. They will employ some people in some limited areas but it will not spur industry that is our countries backbone. It is kind of like West Virginia. little industry but a lot of good roads.

In the work to go to the moon. It spured technology we used all the time in so many industries. Too many people think we spent the money just to go to the moon when we spent the money to take the lead in technology. It is not where we went but how we figured out how to get there is what counted. This was what we learned during WW 2 in wepons development that the goverment funded in private industry. This time they did it with out the war.

I think this same effort would work on the alturnitive fuels.

There is no magic bullet so we had better start work on some realistic things and try to keep the politics out.

As for taxing the goverment will tax what ever we end up with. Just now Oregon is working on taxing by the mile driven. A GPS unit will let them know how many miles you drive and you pay tax by the mile. This is to make up for the higher MPG cars CAFE is requiring and killing the Gas tax.

Jazzman and HyperV6 make good points as usual. A couple of things though..

You don't generate electrons, you just push them around. And with AC you actually are just vibrating them and not really pushing them very far.

The key to electricity as Jazz points out is that there are many ways to push around electrons versus the finite amount of fossil fuel.

Of all the alternative energy, wind is my favorite. It is nearly unlimited and everywhere and blows nearly 24 hours a day. The migratory birds?? I don't really care, but I'm sure that we can come up with ways to scare them away from the blades.

I have little hope for solar...even if the solar panels are free, the energy density is too low to make it very practical.

In effect wind is a concentrated form of solar...the heating of air over continents and oceans creates enough wind to power the entire world. The T.Boone plan would make him insanely wealthy, but that doesn't mean it's not a good idea.

Battery technology is very primitive and hasn't advanced much in 100 years. That's mainly because there hasn't been a need. The Military and NASA have spent billions on Lithium Ion development and have little to show for it. I personally have seen two lithium ion battery projects die because of the safety concerns. But if the collective smart minds on the planet focus on it, there could be a breakthrough.

But assuming a battery breakthough occurs, we have a new problem...the Volt has a 12 kWh battery of which 6 kWh is used by the vehicle (30% to 80% depth of discharge). If we had a Mega-Super Advanced Battery with the equivalent energy of gas, we would have no way to charge all those batteries.

For example a gallon of gasoline has 36kWh per gallon, so a small car with a 12 gallon tank has about 432 kWh on board or 36 times the amount of the Volt

The one silver lining is that an electric car is far more efficient and doesn't need that much energy. A Chevy Volt with 60 kWh battery would have a 400 mile electric range. So we only need a battery about 10 times more powerful, and if we can eliminate the depth of discharge limits only 5 times more powerful.

I think a 5 times improvement in battery technology is feasible...but you still need to generate that 60 kWh somehow. A combination of wind, solar, bio-diesel and nuclear could probably get it done.

I too hope the Obama Administration is serious about alternative energy.

I still don't see hydrogen as a solution. The generation and storage problems look insurmountable to me. It's a crap shoot but I think nano solar and lithium ion batteries look like the best bet for the near future. Nano solar may make hydrogen production economically feasible, but there is still the storage and transportation problem. Hydrogen is hard to contain and fuel cells are still very expensive. Unless there has been a breakthrough in the last thirty years, Metal hydride in a bottle that looks like an oxygen tank is what you would use for a fuel tank. Then the hydride needs to be heated to release the hydrogen.

quote Originally posted by Primaris: Show me a battery that can get me 20 miles and is the same size as a gallon of gas. So no free lunch here.

To be a valid comparison, you will have to stipulate that the 20-mile battery cannot be recharged. Great idea ... replace the battery every 20 miles. No free lunch indeed.

quote Originally posted by Primaris: The batteries do not store any where near the amount of energy as is in a comparable amount of gasoline. So an electric car is going to be extremely heavy. Weight is waste when you are trying to accelerate an object. Plus there are huge risks with lithium batteries, disposal concerns with any battery, and huge purchase costs. Show me a battery that can get me 20 miles and is the same size as a gallon of gas. So no free lunch here.

Today's batteries are not even close.

The best Lithium Ion Batteries on the planet are at about 0.160 kwh/kg

Gasoline has an energy density of 9.67 kWh/L.

A liter of gasoline weighs 0.76kg

therefore gasoline has 12.72 kWh/kg or about 80 times more energy density.

Yes, wind is solar energy, I've never been anywhere that it blows 24/7. If it did I wouldn't want to live there. Yes it is currently the best return on our dollar for energy. I'm not sure that birds are a problem with the huge new units. When I watch them they seem to be turning lazily.

All i know is there are many ways to get electricity this is some that i have looked up there is what they call a earth batterie i think yo put copper and nicklel in the ground about a foot apart attach leads and get power thats how they powerd tellagraph machines way back lowe power though maybee in sieres. you can make electricity from radio waves and Nikola Tesla claimed there is enough static electricity 2000 feet up to power each house per antena. there are wave genorators and tide genorators, solar thermal genorators all ways to make electricity . the hydrogen can be burned in the engine and the by product is water vapore

quote Originally posted by dratts: Yes, wind is solar energy, I've never been anywhere that it blows 24/7. If it did I wouldn't want to live there.

Don't move to Houston... I don't know that it's 24/7, but I can see two wind generators from my desk at work and they are spinning every time I look at them. I can count on my fingers the number of times I've seen them stopped. I can probably download the data from them and get you a real world number as to how many hours a day they spin.

Just want to say that I'm really enjoying this thread and the very informed posters

very interesting guys. just to add some thoughts, what about ammonia? i think the mpg is equivalent to ethanol tho, like 2/3 energy of gas.

i always thought vegetable oil should take over, but they cost a lot more than a gallon of gas
http://www.walgreens.com/st...944&ci_sku=sku373820

my friend talked about having Pure oxygen into the engine would make it way more efficient. he said using an oxygen concentrator or something. its the thought of making the combustion chamber strong enough not to blow up or something to be capable of utilizing it. thats what he told me. he is majoring in chemical engineering and i dunno if hes right or wrong about that assumption.

can magnets help us? i saw a video of them on modern marvels and they are really cool. i know electric motors use magnets and every other electronic device basically, but some trains and rollercoasters use them. I know they are mounted on the track, but is there a way to utilize it to drive automobiles without it being mounted to a track?

I do know a steam engine is really efficient... cept i dunno where to get the energy to boil the water really high to use it.
NO FREE LUNCH indeed

I have been told that injecting a small amounts of hydrogen ,propane or naturale gas in the engine picks up efficantcy . the guys that are trying to do the hydrogen generators on the car have a good concept but they are using more energy to make it then they are geting back allthough they claim better fuel milage What i was thinking is use the heat from the exhaust to run a sterling engine to run a small generator to make the hydrogen then you dont have the loss that you would

quote Originally posted by engine man: Yes Boon has a great plan but you dont see the goerment ralying around hlm. My hope is the new president will do what he said on energy not just another mouth pice and we do have the a great country

His choice for energy secretary is big on alternative energy, and word is that Obama sees alternative energy as a good way to create new jobs. Ya never know.

[This message has been edited by weaselbeak (edited 01-08-2009).]

There are millions (billions?) of fossil fuel burning engines in use right now. Even if significant progress was made with electric it's going to be a lonnnggg time before all these dinosaurs are phased out. Because of that I like T. Boon's general philosophy, if not his exact approach. Since nothing else seems to offer the energy density of good ol' gas, what (renewable) alternative fuel offers the best case scenario for replacing gas - if say everyone was wrong and we found out that we're going to run out of oil in 2020. I know that's not going to happen, but what (renewable) fuel could be produced as close to the cost, while offering the closest energy density ratio possible. I keep stressing renewable because if we follow T. Boon's plan for natural gas as a direct replacement, I think they'll not pursue a renewable source until the alarms sound again. They've been promising to reduce our dependence on oil since I was a kid, maybe longer.

It has always been my opinion that "The Answer" is not an answer, but a collection of answers... In other words, making use of every form of energy possible.
For instance, I've drawn out my dream house...

For heated water, there would be a heavily insulated tank w/heavily insulated piping, & 3 possible switchable methods to heat it: 1) A solar heat exchanger on the roof directing the heat of sun rays into flowing water, 2) Heat exchanger in the fireplace chimney, for when the weather is too cold to heat the solar exchanger, and in-line heat exchangers, aka tankless water heaters run from electricity when the water is not quite hot enough. These methods individually or collectively on or off.

For electricity, a "battery vault" and again, 3 methods of charging: 1) Wind generators, 2) Solar cells, & 3) Stirling engine focused with Fresnel lens. A tracking system doesn't need to be 100% accurate... As long as you have a cam that keeps your cells relatively perpendicular to the Sun, then your efficiency increases dramatically. Even a simple timer that activates a motor & moves the panel a few inches every 30 minutes or so on an East-to-West track is fine... An easy DIY project once you have the panels.

For water, my land would ideally have a well on it, and if that's the case, then I would again have 3 methods of obtaining water: 1) Well water 2) Rain water collection tank (and filtration system), & 3) Distller for the septic system. It may sound gross, but through distillation, you can obtain clean, pure water from ANYTHING that was moisture in it. A steaming pile of cow manure will get you some water. This method could be an energy hog, but there was a recent breakthrough and a guy invented a portable distiller which somehow recycles the heat and uses much less energy... I saw it on Discovery, but I'm still trying to find more details on the design.

My efforts are to recoup as much waste (including wasted energy) as possible. I have many ideas and concepts I'd like to implement, including a methane collector for the sewage before it gets distilled, and then after distillation, using the dry sewage as fertilizer for crops, bringing back food, maybe some vegetable oil to use in oil furnaces/biodiesel, etc, and completing the cycle. My goal is for my house to be it's own "ecosystem" as much as possible.

That being said, what makes a vehicle so much more difficult to implement these types of changes on is the mobility. Stirling engines are HUGE compared to power output, so anything that would be of any assistance to movement of the car would be counter-productive. Solar panels on the car... again, size vs. power output is a big issue. So right now, the safest mobile product with the most bang for the buck is still gasoline. However, I think that if someone would go about it as I'm going about my house, and apply several solutions working together, then it would be very feasible to create a highly efficient vehicle... regenerative braking, ram air turbines (aka wind generators), solar panels, and TECs... But still, it would never be manufactured, because all of those solutions add to the price tag.

IMHO, we need to change our big-balls american mentality... For daily commuting, smaller is better. Smart cars, reverse trikes, minis, etc instead of hummers, suburbans, and escalades. I think instead of lowering the registration taxes because your vehicle is older, they should actually raise them, and lower them on newer vehicles - but ONLY if they start building more efficient vehicles. Antiques & show cars would be exempt from yearly registration atrocity because they would still be allowed the antique vehicle tags.

The simple point is, it can be done, but as said before, there is no real gung-ho research going into it. Why? Because if they're buying, hell, we'll keep building it! OPEC has nothing to gain from the big three building electric cars, and since their popularity isn't very high, the big three has nothing to gain from it either.
For the DIY-er, it can easily be done, and can be done on a budget over time, but right now, there is no real effort being put into mass production design & research for alternative fuel vehicles.

I'm not going to proofread this novel I just wrote, so please forgive me if I made a mistake...

I was a solar pro from 1980 til 1986. Fieroboom you've done some homework to come up with your plan. If you're interested I can add some to your plan that would make it even better9

[This message has been edited by dratts (edited 01-08-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Primaris: ... snip except for the edit comment

eh, don't worry about Jazzy...
He'll make a reply... then change it to a period (.) at a later date.

He'd probably be happy to discourse with you over PM though.

I think you are right when you say it need to be a combind system the sterling engine is big but could be made smaller and would just run a generator that would help in powering the car along with the solar panels on the top what i was looking at is extending the range of the car then it could charg over a period of time buy it self or pluging it in . GM , Ford not sure about Chrysler put Sterling engines in cars I read but it took to long to get the engine up to runing temp that why I feel it would need to be a Hybrid. drive motor is electric and batteries with a generator and solar panells

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 01-08-2009).]

quote Originally posted by blakeinspace: eh, don't worry about Jazzy... He'll make a reply... then change it to a period (.) at a later date. He'd probably be happy to discourse with you over PM though.

Actually, I think I remember reading that Jazzman is 'taking a break' from here... And I'm sure it's not a coincidence that you can't email or PM him... Which really sucks, because I need to talk to him about a steering column!

quote Originally posted by dratts: I was a solar pro from 1980 til 1986. Fieroboom you've done some homework to come up with your plan. If you're interested I can add some to your plan that would make it even better9

Yes, I have done hours and hours and HOURS of research... I'm a nerd, know-it-all, and a knowledge hog (but I try to be a helpful know-it-all, and not one of those smartass ones). Feel free to add anything you see fit, and maybe you'll point out something I haven't thought of... I was all zoned out on that last post, then realized how long it was getting, so I didn't even touch on a lot of things I have in my plans, but most of them are a three-way backup system.

quote Originally posted by engine man: I think you are right when you say it need to be a combined system the sterling engine is big but could be made smaller and would just run a generator that would help in powering the car along with the solar panels on the top what i was looking at is extending the range of the car then it could charg over a period of time buy it self or pluging it in . GM , Ford not sure about Chrysler put Sterling engines in cars I read but it took to long to get the engine up to runing temp that why I feel it would need to be a Hybrid. drive motor is electric and batteries with a generator and solar panells

Actually, NASA developed two Stirling powered vehicles (engines designed & built by contractors) dubbed the Mod I & Mod II. GM successfully integrated the Mod II engine into a 1985 Chevy Celebrity notchback, giving 40 to 58 mpg highway, and 26 to 33 mpg city, while maintaining original curb weight. Keep in mind, this is 1985, so 40-58 mpg is INSANE! Maximum start-up time on that vehicle was 30 seconds. Supposedly Ford came up with a design that used an electric pre-heater, but I'm still doing research on that one.

References:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_engine (Taken from Applications -> Automotive Engines)

[This message has been edited by fieroboom (edited 01-08-2009).]

Thats good you are a person who looks for knowledge i think that most of us in the fourm do i dont know if that makes us neerds but if so oh well . I bet if they put todays tech to that sterling we would be seeing 100 MPG and maybe more in a electric hybrid . just think the startup issue would be gone you drive off with the batteries while the sterling engine is taking it's time starting then you have a real extended range electric car.

57 mpg '86 or 51 mpg today: http://money.cnn.com/2007/1...a_civic_hf/index.htm

I did a litle research it looks like a fiero would take about 20 HP to go 70 MPH and i found that if you put a 50 HP electric motor in it can go to 5 times its rating for short periods of time so that would be 250 HP the big thing would be the torque of the electric motor is instant

quote Originally posted by fieroboom: regarding Jazz

I am sure he lurks... I'll give him a buzz and make sure he knows he has a customer. His column repair service is some of the best money you can spend on your Fiero.

My apologies to the OP and those talking at a higher level than me... please continue now your plans to save the earth

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<---- did you buy Cliff a beer?

Since I'm starting an Electric Fiero conversion: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/097468.html I'll jump in here
Some quick points:
Even using coal to generate electricity there is less pollution per mile than an ICE vechicle, (Internal Combustion Engine)
Many places the grid is a mix of coal, hydro, nuke, and wind, making even less pollution per mile.
As it is today the grid can support millions of EV's. Most charging will be done at night when it is cheaper and the grid is under uitilized.
Most ICE's are about 20 percent efficient, Electric motors are better than 90 percent efficient.
Therefore you don't need the same energy density as gasoline, since 80 percent of the energy in gasoline is wasted as heat.
Electric motors have ONE moving part and can last for hundreds of thousands of miles, probably longer than the vehicle.
Electric motors can have full torque from zero RPM for killer acceleration if fed enough current. Check out NEDRA.
Batteries are NOT an environmental hazard. Lead acid batteries are one of the most heavily recycled products in the world, because a dead battery still has value. Lithium is non toxic and is also valuable and can be recycled.
Good powerful long life batteries DO EXIST, they just cost too damn much at the moment since it's newer technology and are not produced in quantities like lead acid is. Altairnano, A123, and others have long cycle life, fast recharge capability, and high power output for low weight. Subsidies would be nice to ramp up production and drive costs down.
Even older tech lithiums such as Thundersky batteries are good enough for most vehicles and costs are coming down.
Hydrogen is a dead end that's being promoted so car companies can look as if they are doing something green while still producing their inefficient ICE's. Hydrogen takes a lot of energy to create, then needs to be compressed and transported, stored in a high pressure tank, and then run through an extremely expensive fuel cell, which often need repair or replacement. The infrastructure for hydrogen does not exist, while every home and business has multiple electrical outlets. Hydrogen is an inefficient way to store energy.

[This message has been edited by JRP3 (edited 01-09-2009).]