As some of you have known, I have been planning on building a propane fueled 2.8L power plant for my ride. Well, it is finally coming together! All that really is left is a few bolts and wires here and there, waiting a week for the turbo to show up, and a bit o' polishing on the vaporizer/mixer/regulator. Here are a few teaser pics that I took tonight.
The price of propane is holding steady at $2.90/gal and with the trend, we will not see any significant rise for another 2.5 years. This weekend, I should have some photos of the tanks and remote filling station with a little luck.
------------------ Phil Always trying to create something new! Philero ~ Phil and his Fiero, melding into one (soon to be my license plate too!)
I am really not sure to tell the truth. As I have heard, I will decrease my mpg slightly, but increase power at about the same ratio... then add in the turbo which I plan on setting around 9 lbs of boost... that should supply a rather invigorating (not a LT or 3800SC) feeling. After all the body mods, I wouldn't want that much power anyways! I will be using this thread as my build thread from here on out.
------------------ Phil Always trying to create something new! Philero ~ Phil and his Fiero, melding into one (soon to be my license plate too!)
ROFL, I am still waiting to see what kind of clearance issues I will have. That long bolt extending out of the top of the mixer will be trimmed and the cold air intake will be routed (custom fabricated of course!) to supply cool and forced air.
------------------ Phil Always trying to create something new! Philero ~ Phil and his Fiero, melding into one (soon to be my license plate too!)
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11:19 PM
Philero Member
Posts: 390 From: Medford, OR, USA Registered: Oct 2007
This is excellent! I've wondered about doing that as well. I have a 2001 Dodge 3500 Full sized van (15 passenger) with a 5.9 V8 running on propane and we love it! It pulls our full sized camper trailer(sleeps 8) with no hesitation. There are also 3 main tanks and 1 reserve tank underneath. The only problems I've had are in the extreme cold weather, the propane pressure drops (due to the low freezing point of the propane), and there isn't as much getup and go. Also, if you flood it or run out of fuel in the cold weather and continue to crank it, the valve in the mixer can freeze up. This is easily remedied by a hot air gun (don't warm it with hot water).
The propane systems run SOOO much cleaner. There is virtually no carbon build up and very little emissions, and you don't have to change your oil nearly as often. This van has 670,000 KM and has only had a new tranny.
I would love to put the engine in my Fiero, but my wife won't let me :}
uh oh , turbosetup with a venturi design LPG system hmmmm you will burn out your valves easy because the venturi systems (if n ot regulated by an seperate ECM) cant compensate lean running conditions. You should add a Valve saversystem (e.G. FlashLube) . LPG burns with 50-150° C hotter than fuel if mixture gets lean u get a problem then it can go up to 250-300° more and if you want power from the engine or compressor/turbo setup here in europe they use only sequential systems or LPI and for engines bigger than 2Litre most manufacturers of LPG systems recommend 2 evaporators . if you have only one it will get frozen easily or its too small to evaporate the needed amount of Gas in Time
iam thinking about an Turbo 2.0L Opel Engine C20LET for my Fiero with sequential Prins LPG system ( we dont get the emissionclass we need with venturi systems here )and a 70 cylinder tank at the place where normally the fuel tank is
Considering that this car will NOT be a daily driver, but only driven on nice hot summer days, I don't see a problem with freezing. In addition, I am pretty sure that warming the car up before I take it out on the road will alleviate any problems that would incur if I were to start it and just take off. This is not a set up for convenience, it is to be unique. If I feel the turbo unit is causing problems (and thanks for the input, I will run your response past my propane pro friend), I am sure I can always reduce it to like.. say 6lbs. I am not afraid of putting more cash into this setup, it will just take more time
------------------ Phil Always trying to create something new! Philero ~ Phil and his Fiero, melding into one (soon to be my license plate too!)
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09:30 PM
Feb 29th, 2008
Fieromaniac Member
Posts: 980 From: Hamburg, Germany Registered: Nov 2006
Considering that this car will NOT be a daily driver, but only driven on nice hot summer days, I don't see a problem with freezing. In addition, I am pretty sure that warming the car up before I take it out on the road will alleviate any problems that would incur if I were to start it and just take off. This is not a set up for convenience, it is to be unique. If I feel the turbo unit is causing problems (and thanks for the input, I will run your response past my propane pro friend), I am sure I can always reduce it to like.. say 6lbs. I am not afraid of putting more cash into this setup, it will just take more time
btw. take my posts constructive , iam a big fan of LPG tech and iam really interested to see your projects results - so is this LPG system your using regulated ? i mean does it use the output of the oxigen sensor to enrich or lean the mixture ? - the freezing i meant results of the evaporation process of the propane , when liquid propane evaporetes , it will suck thermal energy from the suround. in normal driving process there will be no problem , the heating of the evaporator (i assume its heated within the coolant cirquit of the engine ) will compensate . but if the engine consumes more gas the evaporator can freeze or simply dont produce enuff gas to feed the engine . I read in some LPG forums about small block V8 + LPG venturi and they used at least 2 evaporators to compensate ( for sporty applications ) - how do you realize a "backfire-door" for the intakesystem i guess it have to be between the sensors and the intake Manifold to prevent especially the map sensor of quick death in case of ignition in intakesystem. ------------------ 1984 Fiero Sport 1987 Fiero 1984 Fiero SE 1999 Chrysler Grand Voyager 3.3 LX LPG
*** nuclear winter cures global warming ***
[This message has been edited by Fieromaniac (edited 02-29-2008).]
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03:39 AM
PFF
System Bot
Philero Member
Posts: 390 From: Medford, OR, USA Registered: Oct 2007
I am using a dedicated propane mixer, not a EFI system, hence, no electronics (IE map sensor, backfire door, etc). There should be no problems with this setup according to my buddy who works primarily with LPG on a daily basis.
I thank you for your concern and imput... these kind of questions are good because I have something to ask my friend and sound "smart"!
------------------ Phil Always trying to create something new! Philero ~ Phil and his Fiero, melding into one (soon to be my license plate too!)
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10:59 PM
Mar 1st, 2008
proff Member
Posts: 7393 From: The bottom of the world Registered: Oct 2004
I only have 1 mixer in my V8 that I mentioned earlier, and it's onloy frozen up on me once. That said, it was -35 C with the windchill outside at the time, and I hadn't plugged in the block heater.
Well, another good point by Proff made - if I was routing the exhaust the standard path, but with the turbo, it will be altered away from the trunk area. These are some very rough (and older) pictures I took right after cutting the trunk to allow for the first tank to sit all the way at the bottom. I will have to clean some stuff out of my way to take new pictures of the finished trunk and tank. I will see if I am motivated enough tonight!
------------------ Phil Always trying to create something new! Philero ~ Phil and his Fiero, melding into one (soon to be my license plate too!)
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12:12 AM
Philero Member
Posts: 390 From: Medford, OR, USA Registered: Oct 2007
Well, that didn't take as long as I thought it would!
Here is the underside, after being welded and sealed.
Here is the above shot with the carpet and LPG tank in (carpet is still not pinned in yet)
And lastly, here is a picture that I zoomed out a bit so that I could tease with the work I am doing to my quarter windows. These scoops will actually funtion to move the air from outside to the engine bay.
------------------ Phil Always trying to create something new! Philero ~ Phil and his Fiero, melding into one (soon to be my license plate too!)
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12:34 AM
Eclipse Member
Posts: 2040 From: Woodstock, Ontario Canada Registered: Jun 2004
excuse my ignorance... I really don't know anything about these systems, however...is it safe to have the tank sitting in the trunk like that? What if you get rear-ended....
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11:02 AM
PFF
System Bot
Philero Member
Posts: 390 From: Medford, OR, USA Registered: Oct 2007
excuse my ignorance... I really don't know anything about these systems, however...is it safe to have the tank sitting in the trunk like that? What if you get rear-ended....
Excellent question!!! I had the same one when my buddy told me to put it back there. As I found out, these tanks are rated for quite an impact, let's just say that I would be more worried about me and the engine becoming one before I was to worry about the tank blowing up. I am confident that it will not be an issue.
Thanks for bringing that up though, these are the kind of things I forget to mention in my posts simply because I am too excited!
------------------ Phil Always trying to create something new! Philero ~ Phil and his Fiero, melding into one (soon to be my license plate too!)
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07:09 PM
Mar 4th, 2008
Saxman Member
Posts: 5151 From: Melbourne, FL Registered: May 2005
I grew up driving my parents' vans that were converted to propane - with the HUGE tank filling up the rear of the vans. The tank alone was the width of the van and went up almost 3 feet.
Those tanks are tough. My biggest worry was that the tank would roll forward and crush me in any kind of head-on hit. I accidentally put her in a ditch one time. I ran into a driveway while in the ditch, but the tank held in place. It was not a hard hit.
I am very interested in seeing what kind of mileage you get. The small tank is not nearly as heavy as the ones I had. Being able to pull it out to fill it helps, too. How many gallons/lbs does it hold?
I bet there is a way to secure it in place of the gas tank and set up a filler hose under the fuel door, too.
Keep up the good work!
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01:45 PM
KurtAKX Member
Posts: 4008 From: West Bloomfield, MI Registered: Feb 2002
It looks like a forklift tank, 20-30 lb, so this will effectively HALF his range vs. the stock gas tank.
100 mile range probably with the turbo and lower efficiency of the propane. But its cleaner power and isn't using gas. Teslas only do what 200 miles, providing they run that long. I am interested to see how the car does, this is what saving the planet is all about, research and development.
Excellent question!!! I had the same one when my buddy told me to put it back there. As I found out, these tanks are rated for quite an impact, let's just say that I would be more worried about me and the engine becoming one before I was to worry about the tank blowing up. I am confident that it will not be an issue.
Thanks for bringing that up though, these are the kind of things I forget to mention in my posts simply because I am too excited!
But is it rated for automobile use? IIRC, The DOT has made it illegal to use LPG canisters that are not rated for road use. (The consequences are quite deadly)
or for that matter, road laws... IIRC, and I cannot remember which of the new england states I lived in over the past decade for work, I *Think* it was massachusetts that passed a law that all gas canisters must be secured in an upright position while in transit on public roads.
Might want to check that out, and similarly for any states you plan on going through, before hitting the road.... Ignorance of the law isnt an excuse from a fine, and that poor car wouldnt run once they pull the tank out of it for being improperly transported.... Sometimes a cop might be in quota mode and see you filling up or something, doesnt hurt to be safe....
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06:06 PM
Philero Member
Posts: 390 From: Medford, OR, USA Registered: Oct 2007
To answer the last questions about the LPG tank: Legal = Yes, 50 state. Vertical requirement = No, this is not a recreational vehicle tank, it is designed to be horizontal. Mileage on a single fill = I am guessing approx 221 Miles figuring the tank I have in there now is a ~7gal plus I have allowed for an additional 10 gal tank above that one (will be setting up a remote fill station) @ 13MPG (I am going really low here, but want to be nice about it)
Great questions btw.
Now for my OMG OMG OMG!!!! It came in today!!! OMG!!!
Either tonight or tomorrow evening, the engine will come off the stand and mounted onto the subframe. New clutch kit installed and transmission mounted. This weekend is the target for the turbo installation (still need a wastegate though). The rest of the parts will be fabricated this weekend though!
Edit: Added in the MPG and MP Fill figures. ------------------ Phil Always trying to create something new! Philero ~ Phil and his Fiero, melding into one (soon to be my license plate too!)
[This message has been edited by Philero (edited 03-04-2008).]
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07:25 PM
Mar 5th, 2008
proff Member
Posts: 7393 From: The bottom of the world Registered: Oct 2004
Maybe its just me here in Sydney Australia still too hot with the tanks there That would no way be legal here . it would have to maybe be where the spare used to be. Strapped in securely.
Well, that didn't take as long as I thought it would!
Here is the underside, after being welded and sealed.
Here is the above shot with the carpet and LPG tank in (carpet is still not pinned in yet)
And lastly, here is a picture that I zoomed out a bit so that I could tease with the work I am doing to my quarter windows. These scoops will actually funtion to move the air from outside to the engine bay.
[This message has been edited by proff (edited 03-05-2008).]
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01:12 AM
Philero Member
Posts: 390 From: Medford, OR, USA Registered: Oct 2007
Ok, this heat issue with the tanks has made me realize that I have not explained this well enough. There is a fan in the trunk that blows air between the heat shield and the trunk liner that is driven by a thermostat. Also, the tanks will be secured by safety straps. I may even go the extra step to put a temperature sensor in the trunk just in case, but I think that may be a bit over the top. These are not crystal wine glasses here... stations only fill them to approx. 70%-80% capacity to allow for possible expansion due to excessive heat. I respect your concern, but in the US, this car will be 50 state street legal (minus the headlight height probably) and WAY safer than gasoline. To quote a web site that I respect very much due to the research he put into it: "A LPG tank is designed to slowly release its contents via a safety valve (much the same as those fitted to compressor tanks or steam engine boilers). If the pressure within the tank becomes greater than a preset level, the valve will ‘blow off’. The preset level is much less than the pressure that would cause the tank to explode. Admittedly, the venting of gas will probably result in a jet of flame, but at least some control of its direction is afforded and an explosion is avoided."
There seems to be this idea of exploding bombs of melty flesh and horrid death when thinking of a metal canister of flammable liquid under pressure, but wouldn't you think that because of this, there have been that many more safety measures put in place, not only by the designer, but myself?
------------------ Phil Always trying to create something new! Philero ~ Phil and his Fiero, melding into one (soon to be my license plate too!)
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02:04 AM
Philero Member
Posts: 390 From: Medford, OR, USA Registered: Oct 2007
BTW, for those that are interested, here is my costs as of now:
Mixer/Regulator/Vaporizer setup = $100.00 (Local Craigslist) 7 gal tank = Free (buddy) Turbo = $152.99 (Ebay CXRacing.com) Intake manifold = $80 (here on PFF)
So, I only have about $350 invested in this setup so far. I feel about another $250 and I should be golden (for the other 10 Gallon tank and wastegate).
As I understand it, turbo setups for the 2.8-3.4 cost about $1000, so I have invested (when completed) about $600... I think that is a damned good deal (to include that my turbo is the T3/T4 series which is better than what I have seen offered recently)
Case in point, do your research and take your time in purchasing items. I had to really bite the bullet several times to hold out for better prices/items, but in the long run, it is less expensive, more productive, and better results will be had.
I really hope this thread has helped. And please, in no way should this be misconstrued as a flame/judgment against any other's products or offerings. I am not selling anything, merely offering advise and personal experience to enlighten and/or add to other's experiences with LPG and Turbo.
------------------ Phil Always trying to create something new! Philero ~ Phil and his Fiero, melding into one (soon to be my license plate too!)
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04:09 AM
PFF
System Bot
proff Member
Posts: 7393 From: The bottom of the world Registered: Oct 2004
I understand you completely. I did show these pics to some installation places here in Western Sydney and they said No way. they wouldn't fit a tank like that. They talked about as already talked about , being hit in the rear of the car. in a accident or prang. they also talked about the heat generated from the exhaust. I told them about the fan you are talking about . there replay was , Yeah as long as the fan always works. This will be a long hard battle here.To covince them its safe Here LPG systems have to be inspected every 12months with the yearly saftey registration inspections. yeah at additional cost to us. Only certain people can ge licenced LPG inspectors. only certain people are allowed to install LPG systems. Priv. vechile owners are not allowed to fit the LPG systems. The parts are only for sale to licences installers
quote
Originally posted by Philero:
Ok, this heat issue with the tanks has made me realize that I have not explained this well enough. There is a fan in the trunk that blows air between the heat shield and the trunk liner that is driven by a thermostat. Also, the tanks will be secured by safety straps. I may even go the extra step to put a temperature sensor in the trunk just in case, but I think that may be a bit over the top. These are not crystal wine glasses here... stations only fill them to approx. 70%-80% capacity to allow for possible expansion due to excessive heat. I respect your concern, but in the US, this car will be 50 state street legal (minus the headlight height probably) and WAY safer than gasoline. To quote a web site that I respect very much due to the research he put into it: "A LPG tank is designed to slowly release its contents via a safety valve (much the same as those fitted to compressor tanks or steam engine boilers). If the pressure within the tank becomes greater than a preset level, the valve will ‘blow off’. The preset level is much less than the pressure that would cause the tank to explode. Admittedly, the venting of gas will probably result in a jet of flame, but at least some control of its direction is afforded and an explosion is avoided."
There seems to be this idea of exploding bombs of melty flesh and horrid death when thinking of a metal canister of flammable liquid under pressure, but wouldn't you think that because of this, there have been that many more safety measures put in place, not only by the designer, but myself?
[This message has been edited by proff (edited 03-05-2008).]
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05:33 AM
Philero Member
Posts: 390 From: Medford, OR, USA Registered: Oct 2007
I am sorry to hear that. It must suck to be encouraged to use something that is better for the environment, compensated to boot, then slapped with all sorts of regulations that cost what I am sure is a hefty chunk of change.
Well, I have given this a lot of thought, and I would love to hear anyone else's theory on where the LPG tank should go, and why it would be better there. To tell the truth, I feel a lot safer having a cast iron engine between me and the tanks.
Also, I am going to take the motorcycle theory on this one. Lower speed crashes where I don't have to worry about a ruptured tank, no worries. Devastating high speed impacts that obliterate the tank and cause massive destruction, no worries (I am dead, and dead people don't worry). I guess what I am stating is that an impact that would cause that much destruction would probably have killed me anyways, regardless of having propane, and shame on the person for rear ending me anyways! Driving ANYTHING has risks, I don't think I will have increased mine by doing what I am doing.
------------------ Phil Always trying to create something new! Philero ~ Phil and his Fiero, melding into one (soon to be my license plate too!)
Personally, I'd rather have the tanks as close to the mixer/vaporizer thingy as possible and reduce the amount of line that needs to be run..... lines are much more likely to be compromised/leak than a tank. For that matter, I dont think alot of people recall the late 70s, which full size chevy/gmc trucks were being outfitted with propane setups. the tank went right behind the cab in the bed and I dont recall anyone blowing up from them.... could just be me though.
In fact, comparing the ride height/dimensions of a modern car/truck to the fiero, in a front end impact (the most common type statistically speaking) the other vehicle is likely to ride over the front crash bar, break the small hood mounts up front leaving the hood free to move off elsewhere, and crunch right into where the spare tire normally sits..... not somewhere I'd want a tank because although the tank itself wouldnt be likely to be danaged, I can picture the valve/line being sheared free......
[This message has been edited by KennyC (edited 03-05-2008).]
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11:54 PM
Mar 6th, 2008
Fieromaniac Member
Posts: 980 From: Hamburg, Germany Registered: Nov 2006
Personally, I'd rather have the tanks as close to the mixer/vaporizer thingy as possible and reduce the amount of line that needs to be run..... lines are much more likely to be compromised/leak than a tank. For that matter, I dont think alot of people recall the late 70s, which full size chevy/gmc trucks were being outfitted with propane setups. the tank went right behind the cab in the bed and I dont recall anyone blowing up from them.... could just be me though.
In fact, comparing the ride height/dimensions of a modern car/truck to the fiero, in a front end impact (the most common type statistically speaking) the other vehicle is likely to ride over the front crash bar, break the small hood mounts up front leaving the hood free to move off elsewhere, and crunch right into where the spare tire normally sits..... not somewhere I'd want a tank because although the tank itself wouldnt be likely to be danaged, I can picture the valve/line being sheared free......
there is a multivalve right on the LPG Tank , means if there is a rupture in a gas line , valve will close and only the gas left in the line will evaporate. Same for overpressure , autonmobileclub in germany made a firetest and the valves function was good. It opened slightly to reduce the overpressure while the fire was burning and after the test the car was completely burned out but the gastank was still half full.
LPG is a fine thing i was installing thoose stuff , even on time in an Merc SLK folding roof and trunk mount tank ............ well its easy to use system . And easy hard and software apllication for the multiple cars an engine . But you need to be certifed in Europe . Driving is fun because of the cheapness for the gas but install come to 2000-2500 euros soo you got to drive a lot . LPG has an old history italy is driving thoose for years and grandmas selling gas on the sidewalk in south of italy . So i will hope to see the the finish project here on PFF .
[This message has been edited by Torch-Red87 (edited 03-06-2008).]
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05:01 AM
Fie Ro Member
Posts: 3735 From: Soest, The Netherlands Registered: Sep 2001
I have owned two LPG V8 cars (76Dodge W200 and 69 chevy Subarban). They both were equipped with an Impco system. It is a popular brand because they make systems suited to bigger engine sizes (with carburator). The evaporator needs enginecoolant or it will freeze. I never had a problem with starting and driving, switching lpg/fuel while driving was possible too. When you rebuild heads for a LPG application it is recommended to install harder valveseats. I think that is because lpg burns hotter and slower..
I recall there may have been a running LPG Fiero here in the netherlands. It was a duke with a big tank in the trunk. I saw some pics of it looong ago..
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02:24 PM
GKDINC Member
Posts: 1813 From: East Tawas MI Registered: Dec 2001
Here is what I did today... not much, but yesterday hindered my progress... spent the whole evening after work cleaning my garage. It was getting so bad that I couldn't find tools I had just put down a minute ago!
I know it's not much, but it is slow work. Hoping this weekend provides a few solid hours to dedicate to this!
------------------ Phil Always trying to create something new! Philero ~ Phil and his Fiero, melding into one (soon to be my license plate too!)
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09:24 PM
Mar 10th, 2008
Philero Member
Posts: 390 From: Medford, OR, USA Registered: Oct 2007
Aww, the weekend is over (one hour shorter to boot!)
Anyways, here is my progress. Does not look like much but there was a lot of work here.
First is all of the motor mounts sandblasted, cleaned and painted, then mounted. These shots also include the Tranny mounted after it had been sandblasted and select areas polished. I have come to the conclusion that I HATE polishing aluminum if it is any larger than... oh, let's say a dollar bill. Dirty time consuming work, and it seems you can always get it better if you just spend MORE time than before! I am big on pride, but I have to admit defeat when I am faced with the next three years doing nothing but polishing
Next is the clutch, pressure plate and throwout bearing I have purchased for this install.
Lastly, here is a picture of my flywheel before I send it off to be balanced and weight reduced.
Hope you all had an outstanding weekend and I will post more as it happens throughout the week.
------------------ Phil Always trying to create something new! Philero ~ Phil and his Fiero, melding into one (soon to be my license plate too!)
[This message has been edited by Philero (edited 03-10-2008).]
318 Kmh max. = 198 mph in LPG mode
