I heard, recently, that pontiac was playing around with V-8 fieros, like, in the factory. I'm not sure of the what motor would have been used, but apparantly, it was faster than the corvette of those years... because of this, chevy paid pontiac to not put it in, and they just kept the 2.8 in there.

i heard this from some guy, a while back, and never really looked into it. is there truth to it? if so, i'd kinda be a little less loving of the vette... not much, but a little. ;]

That is sort of the common story, but the version I've heard is that the GM brass considered Corvette to be the flagship performance car and vetoed Pontiac using the Corvette engine in the Fiero. It apparently was outperforming Corvette on the test track.

The Fiero engine bay was designed to put in a v8 and this is the reason for the many successful v8 conversions.

Arn

The Corvetts of the late 80s were dogs. Some testing was done with the DOHC V6s in the Fiero ant it was faster and cheaper than the stock Corvette of the era,
Chevrolet couldn't allow a car that was half the price of the Corvette and faster than a Corvette be out on the market. Whether A V8 was in the future, who knows. Hulki had said that when he saw V8 Fieros that was what was needed. But Hulki was out of the Fiero line by the time the car was under production.

this fact still SUCKS too this day. would have been great. too bad they did not do like they did with the camaro and the Firebird. just about 10 to 20 hp difference between the two. kept chevy camaro Z28 LT1 just above the Pontiac Firebird Trans Am. that little bit in my opinion would offer more verity and more catagorys for sales. AND LARGER PROFITS. they could put a 200 to 220 hp eng. in the fieros and called it good. The Fireo GTP..... Yeah!!!........you know the 1990 fiero proto does look like my 1995 Trans Am?coincidence......QUE X files theme.......I am out Later..... Dan

[This message has been edited by batousai666 (edited 10-05-2009).]

...not to mention but most of Pontiac's brand out sold the Corvette and where are they today? Yet the Corvette continues to live on....

The single aspect about this story that has me suspect is the whole tranny issue. At the time GM didn't have a FWD manual or auto tranny strong enough to be mated with any of the available V8's when subjected to daily flogging antics. They had already paid the tranny piper for the custom pace car transmissions and probably had a bad taste for it.

I can understand the testing with the 3.4 TDC because it was being developed with its own specific manual tranny (284)... But the 284 ended up not being strong enough for the FWD application, much less strong enough for the abusive RWD Fiero application.

During these times the RWD F-body platforms were running the 700R4 and T5... neither was very tough in the early years and GM was quickly figuring out that they needed to better mate the trannsmissions to the engine... or pay for A LOT of waranty work.

In all fairness to the Vette, the Vette has been around since 1953. It is America's first sports car, and has earned its rightful place to be GM's flagship. I don't know how true this story is. I have heard the same story as well, but if the Fiero was going to out perform the Corvette, it also would have out performed the Camaro, Firebird, and Trans Am as well. Which would have killed those three cars. IMO It wouldn't have killed the Vette, because Chevy had been developing the ZR-1 since 1986. I would assume they would have released the Z sooner if the Fiero had been released. But, the Camaro, Trans Am, and the Firebird did not have an upper model, and I suspect they would have suffered even more than the Vette. This is just speculation on my part, but it seems to me, this would have been more likely. Plus given the shaky start the fiero had in '84, and the media frenzy that stirred up, it was easier for GM to walk away from the Fiero project, then to try and build the reputation of a shaky line and possibly lose three of their biggest and most historical cars.

Fellas,
The way I was told, the Fiero was faster than the 'Vette on the GM test track---with the Quad 4! Now I am not certain that the Quad 4 that was tested had a turbo, but if the 190 h.p. 4 banger was qukicker, more efficient (and a better looking car) than the 'Vette, no wonder the GM brass had a difficult time trying to sell to the marketing people the wonders of the 'Vette.

Cordially,
Kevin

[This message has been edited by kevin (edited 10-05-2009).]

quote Originally posted by FutureCustomFiero: In all fairness to the Vette, the Vette has been around since 1953. It is America's first sports car, and has earned its rightful place to be GM's flagship. I don't know how true this story is. I have heard the same story as well, but if the Fiero was going to out perform the Corvette, it also would have out performed the Camaro, Firebird, and Trans Am as well. Which would have killed those three cars. IMO It wouldn't have killed the Vette, because Chevy had been developing the ZR-1 since 1986. I would assume they would have released the Z sooner if the Fiero had been released. But, the Camaro, Trans Am, and the Firebird did not have an upper model, and I suspect they would have suffered even more than the Vette. This is just speculation on my part, but it seems to me, this would have been more likely. Plus given the shaky start the fiero had in '84, and the media frenzy that stirred up, it was easier for GM to walk away from the Fiero project, then to try and build the reputation of a shaky line and possibly lose three of their biggest and most historical cars.

Funny... I am not agreeing or disagreeing, but GM did walk away from the three of their biggest and most historical cars in the early 2000s.

I work and have worked on lots of Corvettes. Its an icon to the older crowd because they can afford them and relive their youth. Younger generation thinks its the fastest thing on wheels. My own personal opinion (and having owned several) is Corvettes are highly over rated by mostly non automotive enthusiasts. For twice the money, id prefer something like a Mercedes SL myself. Being in a few Corvette clubs with mine, Ive found most of their owners to be self centered jerks (not all, some are fine). Ill listen to them and smile and take their money though. To most of them, at least I know, car mods are things like putting chrome grills over their tail lights... I know a few that dont even know where to check their fluids. Ive even run into a few C4 owners that didnt even know their cars had spare tires.

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: Funny... I am not agreeing or disagreeing, but GM did walk away from the three of their biggest and most historical cars in the early 2000s.

True, but I am sure GM did not know, in 1988, that they would get rid of those cars in 2002. I am partial to the vette, because it is my all time favorite car. I have owned two, an '86 and a '90 ZR-1. You can not find a faster car for the money. We could sit here all day long and debate it, but what other car can you buy new or used that has 400+ hp for less than $20k. I am not here to start anything. I love the Fiero dearly, but give credit where credit is due. TheCorvette didn't get it reputation just because some brass at GM decided it would. It got it's rep the old fashion way...racing! Most people do not know this, but the (90's) ZR-1 set 9 world records. One of which was a 50 year long standing record that no one could beat until 1990. The 24 hour speed record was set by a Dusenbug in 1940 at an average speed of 140 mph. The corvette ZR-1 beat that record with an average speed of 175.6 mph, not to mention all the La Mans wins. I truely believe if GM went the route that the Solstice/Sky went, it would still be here to this day. Instead, the Mazda Miata gets to be the brand that brought back the roadster. I am sure GM was kicking themselves seeing the Mita introduced only a year after they killed their contender.

I had a chance to buy a corvette, but decided not to. The reason? I drove a friend's '84 and it was terrible. I know... I know.. it was an '84, but the car was an odd fit, rough, lacked the refinement of many other vehicles... including my '84 Fiero. I was seriously looking at an early '92, but gave up then in 2000 I was looking again, but the price was too high to get a newer model and frankly I didn't like how big they became. I ended up something completely different... For me, it wasn't about horsepower, it was about refinement and quality and my limited experience with corvette was not as satisfying. Would I look at a Corvette again, nope, they are way over priced, large and well, you see too many of them on the street. I am sure they are of much better quality, but again, not really to my liking anymore. GM missed the boat with me.

I have owned a couple vettes and mustangs they are just icons. Defending GM for shooting down cars like;

1) Buick Grand National
2) 1989 3800 Turbo TA
3) Any Fiero with an engine bigger than a 2.8

..is just echoing the some of the many grand choices GM has made over the years that has them the huge success they are today....

I am sorry but GM is reaping the rewards for stupid decisions like the canned cars above.

Or how about canning the Firebird and Camaro and handing the pony car market to ford....

and perhaps even the EV1, which would have launched GM as the leader in alternative vehicles. People begged and pleaded with them not to can that one...but i digress

Look on ebay at what Turbo 89 T/A's and buick grand nationals are selling for used and hammered...or how about in mint condition.... People WANTED these cars and still do....

These are examples of the rare occasions GM actually made something that people wanted and was priced appropriately for what it could do. Unlike the high priced vette which lets face it, in its history has rarely performed what it should have for the price.

If GM had tossed aside its pride even a few times over the vette it would have 2-3 new auto legends which would be going strong even to this day. Who knows, maybe a little inhouse competition would have kicked the Vette developement team in the A$$ and made it a better car in the 80's and (early) 90's.

Don't they say competition is good for business? with no competition in house (thanks to the vette lovers in GM crying foul anytime something got too fast) the vette got long in the tooth and was an expensive dog for nearly 2 decades.

[This message has been edited by FieroMonkey (edited 10-05-2009).]

quote Originally posted by FieroMonkey: Unlike the high priced vette which lets face it, in its history has rarely performed what it should have for the price.

I'm curious what car has the performance of a C5 (or later) Vette for the same money? Most people making statements like this have never owned, or driven, a newer Vette. For the money, I don't know what outperforms them.

BMW M3 comes to mind.... I am sure their are others. Again, though... raw power is not the only factor. The corvette is (now) a great car, but there are other manufacturers out there making great cars.

My experience is based on driving the said '84. To me, the C4 vettes are just terrible. I am sure the newer ones are better, but to me power is second to style and comfort. I would rather give up a little power for more comfort features (daily driver).

J.

quote Originally posted by couldahadaV8: I'm curious what car has the performance of a C5 (or later) Vette for the same money? Most people making statements like this have never owned, or driven, a newer Vette. For the money, I don't know what outperforms them.

I wasn't aware the C5 was available during the 80's and first part of the 90's, but i never claimed to be a vette expert over every model beginning with the 53. I have owned and 78, and 86 and a 91 vette I drove for 2 years which was my mothers, but since you already believe i am making comments about a car I have lied about owning and having driven I wont bother to discuss this any more with you.

You can continue to try and pick holes in details of my post and skirt the issue all you like. I should have known better than to speak ill of the sacred untouchable vette /sheesh

In the 80's GM could have bolted up a caddy engine with the current AT. Seems doable to me. By 88' they could have used the current 4.5 FI with a slightly modified Getrag 5spd, taller R&P would do it. I've heard this rumor before and have also heard from a couple of GM retirees the V8 Fiero wasn't ever in the works. Just the twin cam V6 and a couple other 4cyl combos. Long before a company would ever think "This would be cool." they'll be thinking "Will this make money." If a V8 Fiero would have killed even some sales of Vettes, Camaros, FB's ect, but not have increased overall unit sales, of course they would never have even put it on a drawing board or messed with a prototype etc.

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: BMW M3 comes to mind.... I am sure their are others. Again, though... raw power is not the only factor. The corvette is (now) a great car, but there are other manufacturers out there making great cars. My experience is based on driving the said '84. To me, the C4 vettes are just terrible. I am sure the newer ones are better, but to me power is second to style and comfort. I would rather give up a little power for more comfort features (daily driver). J.

Sorry, a BMW M3 is well over $60k. Last time I check the Vette is $48k. But,I guess if I drove an '84 Vette for the first time, I would be disappointed as well. 205 hp with 190 torque is not the best of numbers. As for the other comment about the Vette being long in the tooth. All cars in the 80's wree long in the tooth. Grand National=276hp, Mustang=215hp, Corvette=205-245hp. The Grand National, as great as it was for its time, is long in the tooth compared to the cars now. 276 Hp back then was awesome. But if the Vette was long in the tooth, so was every other car of it's day.

quote Originally posted by FieroMonkey: ...but since you already believe i am making comments about a car I have lied about owning and having driven I wont bother to discuss this any more with you. You can continue to try and pick holes in details of my post and skirt the issue all you like. I should have known better than to speak ill of the sacred untouchable vette /sheesh

Touchy, touchy. I wasn't picking holes in anything, I was asking a legit question about cars comparible to the Vette. In the '80's, yes, it was somewhat of a dog, but so was every other car on the market. And the Vettes always sold in sufficient numbers to make money; why would GM take a chance with those sales.

Talk of a Fiero with a different engine outperforming a Vette is nonsense, unless the car/engine combination was streetable and met all regulations of the time. GM put together a lot of test cars that were nothing more than experiments and by the time they were ever made to meet crash/emissions/noise,etc regulations, would have been a far cry from what the test car was like.

Yes, I do happen to be a fan of the new Vettes. I drive a C5 as a daily driver in the spring/summer/fall, and it is the best car I've ever owned for all around performance, luxury, and comfort (compared to Fiero, Mustang, Porsche 911, Shebly Cobra replicas...). But that's me. Everyone has different ideas of what makes a great car.

Close enough... all depends on what options you check off.

2009 Chevrolet Corvette
MSRP: $48,565 - $103,970

2009 BMW M3
MSRP: $54,850 - $66,500

quote Originally posted by FutureCustomFiero: Sorry, a BMW M3 is well over $60k. Last time I check the Vette is $48k. But,I guess if I drove an '84 Vette for the first time, I would be disappointed as well. 205 hp with 190 torque is not the best of numbers. As for the other comment about the Vette being long in the tooth. All cars in the 80's wree long in the tooth. Grand National=276hp, Mustang=215hp, Corvette=205-245hp. The Grand National, as great as it was for its time, is long in the tooth compared to the cars now. 276 Hp back then was awesome. But if the Vette was long in the tooth, so was every other car of it's day.

i think if a fiero was taking the vetts on the test track it's because of the garbage power plants of the 80's. i love my fiero but in a race of handling i would put my money on an 84 corvette rather then an 88 fiero gt. the only 80's car i have ever driven that wasn't under power was an 84 porsche 928 and thats pretty high end.

From the latest Michigan Fiero Club newsletter...

my only problem with vettes is that "everybody" ,used loosely, has one. new and old.

thats why i like the fiero not everyone wants one, and/or sooner or later wont be able to find one, cuz of us.
its funny how many of "you" guys and gals have multipal Fieros. even if its a parts car.

The guy I got my Mera from had another MERA in his garage and just sold one with a 3800 II sc in it. ohh... the black one in the garage had a Northstar in in. lucky dog!!
he loved Meras. anyway that is My two cents.......en la notche.....

Ooo... great article. thanks a bunch for it.

it's kinda like a whole mafia thing that chevy has going on. i still love the vette, but wow... :\

wonder what happened to the 250- 2.9 alum. engien's???? twin turbo???? sounds like new research topic for list of potential canadates for my swap?? thanks for the artical

[This message has been edited by batousai666 (edited 10-05-2009).]

I love my Fiero, I love my Vette. If I had a choice between a New 84 Fiero and a New 84 Corvette the Vette would win but not by much.

If I had a choice between a heavily modified 80s Fiero or a heavily modified 80s Vette I couldn't choose and would just buy both.
For a lot of people the Vette is just a car on their bucket list, its just something to have before we take a dirt nap. Some people grow out of it and some don't

quote Originally posted by FutureCustomFiero:...it would have out performed the Camaro, Firebird, and Trans Am as well. Which would have killed those three cars...

I don't think it would have hurt the Camaro and Firebird as bad as you might think. They are 4 seat cars which make them more practical performance purchases, filling a little different market. If the Fiero could have been a legitimate threat to the Camaro and Firebird, they wouldn't have been able to sell any 4cyl and 6cyl versions of the Camaro and Firebird during those years. Those two seats are attractive to young couples that have dogs or small children, or singles that want to be able to occasionally roll with their friends.

I'm always skeptical of Corvette Vs Fiero comparisons. The Corvette has earned it's place in history, the Fiero, well it's a Fiero. The modern day Corvette runs proudly with the big dogs and is considered by most to be bargain priced supercar. The '80s Corvette would have been forced to step it up several notches if the Fiero was allowed to evolve unchecked.

------------------
RickN
White 88GT 5spd
White 85GT Auto
White 99 F250SD 7.3PSD 6spd
1956 Ford 860 Tractor w/ Freeman Loader
20Ft Tilt Bed Trailer

[QUOTE]Originally posted by batousai666:

my only problem with vettes is that "everybody" ,used loosely, has one. new and old.

I had just bought a 1972 Corvette coupe.
I let my brother take it for a drive and after about 3 miles we passed another Vette going n the opposite direction. I said to my brother Wave they all do.
Before long we passed two more Vettes. My brother turned to me and said "these things are just like arseholes, everybody's got one"

Great article and as I read it, the V8 was a one off and nothing more.

It's like if GM dropped a Duramax in an Luv, someone would claim GM killed off the Luv because it blew the doors off a C/K. We can't have that now can we!

Well, yeah but it wasn't like there was any plan to put it in production. The Fiero had a long way to go before it could dethrone the Vette in power or marketing.

quote Originally posted by Tinkrr: [QUOTE]Originally posted by batousai666: my only problem with vettes is that "everybody" ,used loosely, has one. new and old. I had just bought a 1972 Corvette coupe. I let my brother take it for a drive and after about 3 miles we passed another Vette going n the opposite direction. I said to my brother Wave they all do. Before long we passed two more Vettes. My brother turned to me and said "these things are just like arseholes, everybody's got one"

especally with the new 2002 and ups.... not totally a bad thing, but..thats why I went Mera for my Fiero, only 247 made... maybe 100 left.... very limited... and do not get me wrong...
for the right price a 68-82 Vette would look good in the ever growing fleet. its just not high priorty anymore. in the older Vettes ('75-'82) its always been for me like the fiero simply under powered. so eng. swaps are usually a consideration anyway. Later--
Dan

quote Originally posted by couldahadaV8: I'm curious what car has the performance of a C5 (or later) Vette for the same money? Most people making statements like this have never owned, or driven, a newer Vette. For the money, I don't know what outperforms them.

An Audi S4 or S6 and i'm going on a limb and saying were not talking the base model either on the vette it would have to be their performance edition z06 or whatever they are calling it now or its just a car with a vett logo on it.

[This message has been edited by Macs86GT (edited 10-06-2009).]

Hulki's exact words to me were, I build that engine bay to take a V-8 just incase.

I also heard that when the bosses seen the Pontiac guys testing a V-8 on their proving grounds that they were told destroy it now or loose your job.

They did many things on the side like build my car as their designers did evenings and weekends at Diversified Glass Products. They had a ball making their designs come true that were not allowed at work and Bob Birchmier made out by haveing one of the best design teams for free. Carfaro and Shinella were part of the guys along with all GM designers not just from Pointiac.Rick B

http://www.youtube.com/watc...feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watc...feature=channel_page

quote Originally posted by Macs86GT: An Audi S4 or S6 and i'm going on a limb and saying were not talking the base model either on the vette it would have to be their performance edition z06 or whatever they are calling it now or its just a car with a vett logo on it.

I don't know, the S4 is underpowered and the S6 is overpriced (compared with a base Vette).

GM did have a transmission to handle a V8 from the old Elderado, Toronado, Riviera lines. That setup was modified and used in the Aerovette and CERV III concept cars with a tranverse V8 configuration. They also played with 2 rotor and 4 rotor Wankel engines.

Aerovette 1977



Corvette CERV III 1990