Hi all, Michael decided to let my shop recreate his Fiero into the Fiero of his dreams. Here is the prior build thread, but we are starting a new one because we will be taking the car into a different direction.
Our plans for this 1988 GT (t-top) are to take the automatic transmission out and install a F40 six speed. The low mount turbo setup will be removed, a trunk will be reinstalled and the turbo will be relocated into the engine bay. The series II engine sounds like it is ready to throw a rod, so we are going to upgrade to a series III. A few other odds and ends will be done as well. The reason we are doing this as half of you are probably thinking WTF???, is that we are NOT building a turbo Fiero that will compete with FieroX. My questions to Michael were simple. What is your intentions with this car? What is your budget? What do you concider to be a fun car? So, we came up with a modern manual shift transmission, turbo relocation to allow a trunk and the end result should be a fun to drive Fiero that has a turbo and gets decent gas mileage.....oh, and it will be reliable.
Michael asked me to start with the brake calipers. They looked ugly. I told him to pick out a color from Eastwood's website and I'd powdercoat them. Here are a few in progress pics.
Half done in the blaster......
A close up to show the sparkle
Parts for this build seem to be arriving daily and I hope to start on the transmission part of the swap soon. Much more to come...... Dave
OK, to answer some of the questions/statements in advance...
1) I never wanted a race car. If this car ever sees the 1/4 mile track, it will probably only see it once. The previous builds kept going in directions I didn't really envision. This car will not be a drag car, or a garage queen. I plan on driving the hell out of it, in the city, across the country, wherever and whenever I want.
2) Tengis did a good job with what he had. The shop before him screwed things up so badly he had no way of recovering the car, not without starting over from scratch. Unfortunately we didn't find this out until the car was running, which didn't happen until I was ready to ship it to Dave for a F40 swap.
3) You may think X being done to the car may not be as good as Y or Z, but Dave and I are in agreement for what's important here, and while others may have an opinion about things, please remember it's MY car and DAVE'S work, so ultimately we're the ones that have to like how it goes. That said, feel free to throw in as much input as you want, even constructive criticism on my decisions.
I'm happy to see the progress already Dave, keep up the good work
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05:14 PM
fieroguru Member
Posts: 12331 From: Champaign, IL Registered: Aug 2003
I think you are making a good choice going with the 6 speed, but then again I have never been a fan of automatic transmissions in general. The OD will be nice and I am interested to see what kind of highway cruise mileage you can get out of it.
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05:42 PM
TommyRocker Member
Posts: 2808 From: Woodstock, IL Registered: Dec 2009
I will be following this build... A turbo 3800 with an F40 is my dream combination (in the "reasonable" category) and it would be cool to have a clean build thread from someone who has it all figured out. Also, the fast, fun, reliable daily driver based on an '88 GT with T-tops is also exactly what I would want. I'm jealous...
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06:06 PM
Bradley Jay Member
Posts: 794 From: Redlands, CA Registered: Jun 2008
Originally posted by fieroguru: I think you are making a good choice going with the 6 speed, but then again I have never been a fan of automatic transmissions in general. The OD will be nice and I am interested to see what kind of highway cruise mileage you can get out of it.
Yeah this was my dream combo from a couple of years ago, even when everyone said no one could/would do it.
quote
Originally posted by TommyRocker: I will be following this build... A turbo 3800 with an F40 is my dream combination (in the "reasonable" category) and it would be cool to have a clean build thread from someone who has it all figured out. Also, the fast, fun, reliable daily driver based on an '88 GT with T-tops is also exactly what I would want. I'm jealous...
Thanks, the road getting here was so bumpy, I almost scrapped this whole thing. I'm counting on Dave to restore my faith in this car. I know he can, I just wish I had let him do it when I first decided to do the engine swap.
quote
Originally posted by Bradley Jay: Damn, this car has been everywhere!
Everywhere but on the road driving, LOL
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru: ....but it ends here.
Well, there IS stage III, I have too many top secret things waiting for the car for it to end yet. However, yes, you are the last stop for the mechanicals
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07:33 PM
Tengis Member
Posts: 55 From: Houston Texas Registered: Nov 2006
Nice to know that basically everything I did is going to get thrown away. Fun times.
It's not getting thrown away. From the sounds of it, the engine is pretty much shot. I have no idea where the jerks at SSP got it, or how many miles it had. Dave found a Series III with 20k miles on it, and as a source, I believe him more than I ever did TEXASGT. It just makes sense to go with a different motor, so everything is going to have to be removed and moved over to another block. I never really liked having to sacrifice my trunk, and since we're having to go back to taking everything out, I asked Dave to restore the trunk and rebuild it more like AkursedX's setup.
I was more than willing to keep it your way if it had worked out with the engine, but since it's basically going back to scratch, I wanted to have more input in the look of it as well. Appearance was one thing we never really focused on, I just kind of went along with whatever I was told would work. I'm not expecting this to be a full-on show car, but since I'm having to put this kind of money into it, I want it to look as nice as it runs. Dave is going to make that a priority for me.
I'm sorry man, really I am. You got the short end from the start trying to fix something that was screwed up past repair. I should have just had you start over.
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10:31 PM
PFF
System Bot
Apr 9th, 2011
sabooo Member
Posts: 859 From: Lehigh Valley, PA Registered: Aug 2006
With a baby clutch and a extremely unknown transmission... I dont see how the reliability is increasing over a trans proven to hold 500+ all day.
I also do not see less than 2 cubic feet of trunk space being worth the 5 digit price tag that is going to come from this.
I understood what may or may not have happened to the old motor as well.... I really do not understand why it was written off so quickly.
My personal opinion of the F40 trans says that it will not hold up for crap if the turbo setup and clutch is doing what it should.
I respect your opinion, but....
Which clutch specifically are you referring to? I didn't see where the specific clutch was mentioned.
What makes you think I'm just paying for a trunk here? The car wasn't right in MANY areas, and even Tengis had questions about the engine after it was running. The motor was written off because no one, not the guys at SSP, or even Tengis really checked the engine to see if it was worth putting a turbo on. I for one didn't want to find out it wasn't the hard way, so I asked Dave to get me an engine that we know will handle the boost.
I'm sure you thought the F23 wouldn't hold up either right, even though jncomutt was putting 500 hp and 500 tq to his? Isn't the F40 a similar design to the F23? I originally wanted a manual but ended up with an automatic. I figure the F40 is a better option than the stock Getrag. Remember, my car isn't being built for the same reasons you build yours. I'm a bit too old to be street racing every time I get behind the wheel.
I know you've built some 3800's, and are in contention to be the first street legal Fiero in the 9's, but that surely doesn't mean you know more than everyone else. To my knowledge, and I could be wrong about this, but I believe Dave has performed a few more 3800 swaps than you, and he understands I don't want a drag car. I want something to be proud of, appearance-wise as well as power. I'm willing to be slower than you, but I guarantee my car will be more functional and valuable in the long run. Skitime's and ClayTonto's cars both just sold for around $15k if I am not off on my numbers. Even though your car would probably smoke theirs in the 1/4 mile, I seriously doubt anyone would pay near that price for yours. No offense man, but my car will be in their league, not yours and FieroX's where it's speed over everything else (no offense to either of you, I'm just making a point).
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01:14 AM
Genopsyde Member
Posts: 774 From: Willoughby, Ohio USA Registered: Dec 2007
I look forward to following this. I have been very impressed with everything that has come out of the haus so far, i'm sure this one will be just as impressive.
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03:43 AM
bmwguru Member
Posts: 4692 From: Howell, NJ USA Registered: Sep 2006
With a baby clutch and a extremely unknown transmission... I dont see how the reliability is increasing over a trans proven to hold 500+ all day.
I also do not see less than 2 cubic feet of trunk space being worth the 5 digit price tag that is going to come from this.
I understood what may or may not have happened to the old motor as well.... I really do not understand why it was written off so quickly.
My personal opinion of the F40 trans says that it will not hold up for crap if the turbo setup and clutch is doing what it should.
I had to quote scott on this cause he likes busting my chops in good fun.
The F40 is being used because Michael and I would rather walk than drive an automatic Fiero I drove Troyboy's car with the F40 and LS7 and I was impressed with the smoothness of the shifting compared to the clunky Getrag. It made me want one in my car.
Yes, I am charging $XX,XXX.XX to install the trunk back into the car...and the rest of the swap is being done for free.... Actually, it comes out to materials, trunk carpet and two hours of labor to reinstall the trunk.....and you can fit either two duffel bags for a weekend trip or four 12 packs of Pepsi. That's about all I've ever used my trunk for.
The current motor is knocking and sounds like it is ready to throw a rod. With the WHP that is expected from this build, it seems better to just drop in a low mileage series III.
As for the F40 holding up, as long as Michael isn't dropping the clutch and shocking it, it should hold up. The turbo is going to be more gentle on the transmission than a supercharger would be. Who knows? Time will tell.
Here is a pic of the aluminum flywheel setup and Spec stage 3+ clutch kit.
I've been planning this build out for the past bit. The first step is get the transmission installed and see what kind of room we have to work with for the turbo. The rest of the build will be based on that. I have two build designs planned and they are dependant on how the F40 fits..
Dave
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01:00 PM
AkursedX Member
Posts: 2890 From: Lackawanna NY Registered: Aug 2000
mptighe, if you need any part ideas, pictures, or rough measurements of my setup to help you guys out, I'll gladly try to help out. Although I'm pretty confident that BMWguru will get things all worked out.
Are you going to run the camaro intake? If not, I think it'll be a really tight squeeze to fit a turbo plus piping, plus and intercooler (are you going to run an intercooler?) solution all on the left hand side of the car while having to route shift-cables as well. It's a tight fit on my setup as it is.
I agree with mptighe on the trunk. I would never give up what little bit of cargo space that I have. With my trunk, I am still able to use my Fiero for weekend getaways with the wife. We took it up to Traverse City for a long weekend last year and we'll probably take it on a similar trip this May.
I'm really looking forward to seeing what will come of this build.
------------------ '88 GT- 3800 Turbo 11.367@121.03mph FOR SALE GM Tuners
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01:17 PM
mptighe Member
Posts: 3321 From: Houston, TX Registered: Aug 2009
mptighe, if you need any part ideas, pictures, or rough measurements of my setup to help you guys out, I'll gladly try to help out. Although I'm pretty confident that BMWguru will get things all worked out.
Are you going to run the camaro intake? If not, I think it'll be a really tight squeeze to fit a turbo plus piping, plus and intercooler (are you going to run an intercooler?) solution all on the left hand side of the car while having to route shift-cables as well. It's a tight fit on my setup as it is.
I agree with mptighe on the trunk. I would never give up what little bit of cargo space that I have. With my trunk, I am still able to use my Fiero for weekend getaways with the wife. We took it up to Traverse City for a long weekend last year and we'll probably take it on a similar trip this May.
I'm really looking forward to seeing what will come of this build.
Thanks man, much appreciated. Your car is what made me decide to follow through with the turbo thing in the first place. Like I said before, if I had a lick of common sense, I would have dumped my car and bought yours the second it went up for sale, god knows it would have been cheaper. I'm even startting to regret the T-Tops, considering how much of a pain they're turning out to be, and what a bigger and torquier (new word I just made up) engine will do in the car.
As far as I know, Dave is looking at two different options for the intake depending on which build we go with. this all depends on available space with the F40, like he said. I'll let Dave ask for any specific pictures that will help him (if he indeed needs any). I've asked him a few annoying questions about stuff I've seen debated here on the threads, only to find out the answers are a lot simpler than I thought, so now I just trust that he either has stuff already figured out, or will have by the time I can even comprehend what the issue is.
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01:44 PM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
The current motor is knocking and sounds like it is ready to throw a rod. With the WHP that is expected from this build, it seems better to just drop in a low mileage series III.
As for the F40 holding up, as long as Michael isn't dropping the clutch and shocking it, it should hold up. The turbo is going to be more gentle on the transmission than a supercharger would be. Who knows? Time will tell.
Dave
I would say that I have never seen one of those STG3+ setups do much. I installed one on a fiero a few years back with about 340whp, and it worked quite well, handled alot of abuse... But I dont think I would trust it with that much more power behind it..
The turbo is not going to be any friendlier to that transmission than anything else... we are talking about alot of horsepower here... at least potentially.
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08:39 PM
PFF
System Bot
mptighe Member
Posts: 3321 From: Houston, TX Registered: Aug 2009
I would say that I have never seen one of those STG3+ setups do much. I installed one on a fiero a few years back with about 340whp, and it worked quite well, handled alot of abuse... But I dont think I would trust it with that much more power behind it..
The turbo is not going to be any friendlier to that transmission than anything else... we are talking about alot of horsepower here... at least potentially.
Well, I know enough about this to make myself look like a complete ass, so here it goes
I thought the spool time of the turbo would cause less shock loading on the initial launch? Isn't the launch of a SC car usually harder on things? I can say our target for hp is less than what jncomutt was running, so hopefully the transmission and clutch will hold up as well as his did. If I break it, then at least we know for sure. Either way, Dave assured me a lifetime warranty on parts and labor for as long as both of us live, so no biggie if I grenade it...... Right Dave?
[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 04-13-2011).]
Shock loading is more a function of how you handle the clutch than anything else. The smoother the torque is applied the less dynamic shock loading you have. Turbos have advantages over belt-driven supercharging in terms of efficiency, which means potential increases in fuel mileage.
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09:59 AM
nosrac Member
Posts: 3520 From: Euless, TX, US Registered: Jan 2005
The F40 is being used because Michael and I would rather walk than drive an automatic Fiero
I've been planning this build out for the past bit. The first step is get the transmission installed and see what kind of room we have to work with for the turbo. The rest of the build will be based on that. I have two build designs planned and they are dependant on how the F40 fits..
Dave
How many running F40+3800 in a Fiero are there? Does you design call for an adapter plate? Also, any reason why you guys are using the F40 over F23?
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01:46 PM
bmwguru Member
Posts: 4692 From: Howell, NJ USA Registered: Sep 2006
Originally posted by mptighe: Dave assured me a lifetime warranty on parts and labor for as long as both of us live, so no biggie if I grenade it...... Right Dave?
lol
quote
Originally posted by nosrac:
How many running F40+3800 in a Fiero are there? Does you design call for an adapter plate? Also, any reason why you guys are using the F40 over F23?
I have no clue how many 3800s/c F40's are out there. I plan to use poly mounts on my setup. There is no need for an adapter plate. We are using the F40 over the F23 because it is a 6 speed and the F23 is only rated for 170 ft lbs of torque.
Dave
[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 04-13-2011).]
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03:19 PM
mptighe Member
Posts: 3321 From: Houston, TX Registered: Aug 2009
Originally posted by nosrac: How many running F40+3800 in a Fiero are there? Does you design call for an adapter plate? Also, any reason why you guys are using the F40 over F23?
I thought I had read that Archie helped someone with a 3800 convert to a F40, and I know a couple of members were working on it, but don't think they had it done yet. I'm too lazy to look it up, but I'll post if/when my laziness subsides. I also found on other forums where someone did it with a Grand Prix, and a Le Sabre. I would say there are probably less than 5 that I've been able to find in the past year or so, and only 1 or 2 Fieros that I recall.
I was thinking about the F23, it would definitely be easier and cheaper, but I wanted to get the best mileage I could and I wanted to be different. Besides, I think the F40 is being underestimated by everyone. If Clay and Troy had it behind built V8's, and it's a similar design to the F23, then it should be able to handle my setup I imagine. I'll take you for a ride when I get it back.
[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 04-13-2011).]
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03:57 PM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
I have no clue how many 3800s/c F40's are out there. I plan to use poly mounts on my setup. There is no need for an adapter plate. We are using the F40 over the F23 because it is a 6 speed and the F23 is only rated for 170 ft lbs of torque.
Dave
Trying to hold onto that "rated power" number is really dumb. If you look at the rated power for all of the GM transmissions, they are all within 10% of the motor they are attached to, even in the fiero world where we know the getrag works at 500whp levels, while the isuzu wont last long with 150whp.
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09:52 PM
Apr 14th, 2011
mptighe Member
Posts: 3321 From: Houston, TX Registered: Aug 2009
Originally posted by mptighe: I thought I had read that Archie helped someone with a 3800 convert to a F40, and I know a couple of members were working on it, but don't think they had it done yet. I'm too lazy to look it up, but I'll post if/when my laziness subsides.
OK, laziness temporarily subsided. here's the thread where Archie said he had done a 3800 / F40 mating. However, I was mistaken, it wasn't even for a Fiero. It was for an Olds Trofeo.
So, with a new perspective, I may be completely wrong, and there may NOT be anyone running this combination in a Fiero at the moment. If that's the case, then mine will be the first I guess. No pressure Dave, it's not like you're blazing a new trail and screwing this up could set back 3800 Fieros across the whole world or anything
Seriously... I am very grateful to Dave for taking the car on. Although, it's weird to not be able to drop by the shop and visit the car.
[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 04-14-2011).]
Originally posted by mptighe: So, with a new perspective, I may be completely wrong, and there may NOT be anyone running this combination in a Fiero at the moment. If that's the case, then mine will be the first I guess.
I see a lot of F40/3800 starts but can't recall any finishes goin into a Fiero.
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11:04 AM
Apr 15th, 2011
bmwguru Member
Posts: 4692 From: Howell, NJ USA Registered: Sep 2006
No weird is ... NO PICS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ok blue calipers big deal. Show the engine in its build stage! or before and after or during.
I'll post up all the details as they happen. I'm waiting for the Quaife LSD to show up for the transmission before we go to the next step. We have a lot going on at the Haus right now. We are in the final stages of project Midtrbo. Project Soup to Nutz is still here getting the gauges and bigger brakes done. We have another 3800s/c swap just about ready to be started. The TDI Fiero is on hold for a month or two. My gold GT is just about done with the winter mods.....and the neverending list of stuff I want to do to my other Fieros is last in line. ...and we have about 30 german cars to work on each week.
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11:27 AM
PFF
System Bot
mptighe Member
Posts: 3321 From: Houston, TX Registered: Aug 2009
I've been thinking... what is the shift pattern going to be, do we know? I have a 6 speed console and I was wondering if it would be the same as the diagram on it. Will it be...
1 upper left 2 lower left 3 upper middle 4 lower middle 5 upper right 6 lower right R far upper / lower right / left?
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05:31 PM
bmwguru Member
Posts: 4692 From: Howell, NJ USA Registered: Sep 2006
Originally posted by mptighe: Awwww, my car has made some new friends.
Look, MIDTRBO has a long lost twin.
FWIW, the F23 has been proven to hold WAY more than 170 lb/ft, not just in a couple of Fieros but in many of the built cars it came in. There's nothing wrong with having a 6 speed, though.
This will be fun to follow. Good luck.
------------------ '88 Fiero GT - Project MIDTRBO '10 Camaro LT/RS - daily driver '96 Talon TSi AWD - 11-second winter beater There's no replacement for turbo placement
[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 04-16-2011).]
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07:17 PM
AkursedX Member
Posts: 2890 From: Lackawanna NY Registered: Aug 2000
I recently discovered that one guy had one in a 2004 Grand Prix that was turbo and it apparently didnt last very long.
Hmmm... I haven't heard any long term results yet myself. I wonder what the specifics were. It would be helpful to know...
Tranny age and mileage Type of clutch LSD / Non LSD Engine specs Driving habits Etc
I'm hoping to have better luck than this, but if all else fails (literally), I'll have a F23 dropped in I guess. There are quite a few people swearing by that transmission now. Time will tell I guess.
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02:18 AM
mptighe Member
Posts: 3321 From: Houston, TX Registered: Aug 2009
The threads also say that his auto was slipping from the almost 600 WHP he was pushing through it. Here's a quote from that thread...
"One of my friends is custom fitting a F40 into his 2004 Grand Prix (will be the first manual grand prix in Canada). He has been using the 4T65E up until now, and has has nothing but problems. Its been built and upgraded with almost every possible part you can put in, but still it cannot hold the power he is making. Last dyno was 581whp on STOCK bottom end..... with the transmission slipping pretty bad."
People that "seem" to know quite a bit about transmissions (compared to my complete ignorance) have said in both threads that there shouldn't be any way the driver could blow out 2nd gear by shifting into 4th, unless they mistakenly shifted from 3rd to 2nd instead of shifted from 3rd to 4th. Or that there was an issue where both 2nd and 4th were somehow selected simultaneously. In the end there was not enough information for the person to continue to assess it. Here is a link to the specific post because I don't want to copy and paste it here...
Now, from what I remember, if he's pushing almost 600 WHP through an auto, then that number goes up a bit when it's going through a manual correct? So if he's at 581 with an auto, then he should be over 600 with the F40, right? If he did mess up his shifting, then I would say that power would grenade ANY transmission if it was forced into a lower gear at redline. Honestly, I don't know why people keep debating because of rumors they heard. The same people that say the F40 is weak because of this story, would probably argue with the guy that the 4T65E could handle that kind of power all day too, because ZZP and others have done it, but according to his story that transmission wasn't strong enough either.
Here's what I found interesting. Dark claims that the second transmission went with less boost being applied to it...
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon: It was there, but he detuned it severely from the "kept blowing up autos" power level. Cut the turbo size down, and turned the boost down 7psi. It was clear that shifting into 4th, and letting the clutch out (turbo car, so you wont be shifting on top of full power) broke it. Combination of shockload and just too much power hitting the gears. There is little to nothing that is going to save your gears if they are just that weak.
When here's what the thread ACTUALLY said...
"He was running 18psi on a T66, headwork, cam, 3" straight exhaust, triple disc clutch...... i guess this combo is just too much for the poor F40."
I guess I just don't understand. Why are people so quick to judge and spread rumors instead of waiting to see? The truth is, some people want it to fail so they can be right. They may very well be right, but they have NO way of knowing if they are or not, at least not until someone legitimately breaks one at a lower threshhold than they would break a 4T65E. That story is definitely NOT an example of that. I don't know squat about cars, but I DO know about people and arguing. Many people argue opinion as if it's fact. Either way, we'll all find out soon enough
[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 04-17-2011).]
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04:19 AM
bmwguru Member
Posts: 4692 From: Howell, NJ USA Registered: Sep 2006
lol
Show the engine in its build stage! or before and after or during. 
