While designing a new 13" brake upgrade for the 88's, I had an epiphany... Why not develop a kit for the 84-87's using the same concept - retain the stock calipers, brake master, e-brake setup, brake bias, and rely on the brake rotor diameter increase to create the improved braking/fade resistance and improve the visual impact of the rotors through 16" and larger wheels.

Granted doing this on an 84-87 would require keeping the solid rotors, but it should still provide close to a 35% braking improvement based on caliper location and the larger size/weight would also help reduce brake fade. So you would be compromising with the solid rotor, but retaining all your stock brake components, balance, e-brake and saving $ while improving braking performance about 35% and gaining the visual impact of the larger rotors. This will not be a kit for everyone, so this thread is to gather feedback on such a kit.

I have found a solid rotor that is about 12 3/4" in diameter that should work for this kit and have it on order. This rotor is available in standard (smooth) and cross-drilled/slotted.

The rotors will add about 8 lbs/side on the front and 6 lbs/side in the rear.

This upgrade will fit 17" and larger wheels, and there is a very good possibility they will fit 16's as well.

The kit would consist of the following:
2 New machined 84-87 front hubs (rotors machined off)
4 Brake rotors 12 3/4"
4 Caliper Brackets
4 Concentric Rings
8 bolts (grade 10.9)
10 Longer front wheel studs
E-brake cable extension

I am estimating (not the confirmed price yet) the full kit price with all the parts above to be around $675 (shipped). I will offer a $100 credit if you want to machine your existing hubs and supply the studs. The upcharge for the drilled/slotted rotors would be $100. I expect these prices will go down once I have finished the bracket designs and have firm quotes from the CNC shop, but this is the price range to get people thinking

Please share your thoughts and if you would be interested in a kit of this type.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 11-13-2011).]

I figure this will be asked...
Since you're having to cut down stock front hubs, are you offering any kind of a "core rebate" on stock hubs? Or do you have enough of them?

quote Originally posted by Raydar: I figure this will be asked... Since you're having to cut down stock front hubs, are you offering any kind of a "core rebate" on stock hubs? Or do you have enough of them?

I could, but it wouldn't be much more than $30 for both fronts (and by the time they ship them to me, they may net $10 to $20). The issue with used is that I would need to take the time to clean and inspect them, then reduce the price on the kit slightly for using used components vs. new. I can buy new front hubs (from China, I assume) for about $70 shipped, so there isn't much room for a core rebate and the extra effort/lower price that would result.

The opportunity to save some $$$ is by having your current hubs turned down by a local machinist. This is a $100 credit since I will not have to buy the new ones, machine them, and ship them (about 15 lbs). Most people have been able to get these modified locally for about $50, so they can keep $50 in their pocket by taking on that portion of the swap. For those who do not want to mess with the machining process, I will supply new hubs already machined.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 11-13-2011).]

Got it!
Thanks for the clarification.

Moved to GFC by request of OP.

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: Moved to GFC by request of OP.

Thanks Cliff!

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: The kit would consist of the following: 2 New machined 84-87 front hubs (rotors machined off) 4 Brake rotors 12 3/4" 4 Caliper Brackets 4 Concentric Rings 8 bolts (grade 10.9) 10 Longer front wheel studs E-brake cable extension I am estimating (not the confirmed price yet) the full kit price with all the parts above to be around $675 (shipped). I will offer a $100 credit if you want to machine your existing hubs and supply the studs. The upcharge for the drilled/slotted rotors would be $100. I expect these prices will go down once I have finished the bracket designs and have firm quotes from the CNC shop, but this is the price range to get people thinking Please share your thoughts and if you would be interested in a kit of this type.

YES! YES! YES!!!! 12 3/4" inch I LIKE! As I stated in your other thread I would be very interested... I'm thinking X-mas & B-day from the wife… LOL! I have new calipers, master, e-brake cables, stainless lines and prop valve... so throwing away money already spent and newish parts with about 3000 miles on them was going to be a hard pill to swallow. Esp since I already painted the calipers… LOL!

My questions...
#1- I am assuming since you say e-brake "extension"... it would just extend the stock cables?

#2- Will the fronts, since using the stock rotor as a hub, still add approx 8-9mm to the offset as the other brake conversions do? I bought rims with this 8-9mm addition already in mind... (running 8mm spacer presently)

#3- If I give you my rim's ID hub size can you make me one off hub/concentric rings that will incorporate centering the rims and the rotor? These new 18inch rims are evil when you try to lug center them… (I will not ask for the rotor ID to do my own, as I know this is a no-no ) I understand that I will pay more for the rings, but I would like to simplify my set up as best I can (not having to run two hub rings atop one another if possible)

THANK YOU, THANK YOU!

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Rescued & resuscitated 1984 Indy Fiero Pace Car #770 presently reversibly modified...LOL!

quote Originally posted by redraif: My questions... #1- I am assuming since you say e-brake "extension"... it would just extend the stock cables? #2- Will the fronts, since using the stock rotor as a hub, still add approx 8-9mm to the offset as the other brake conversions do? I bought rims with this 8-9mm addition already in mind... (running 8mm spacer presently) #3- If I give you my rim's ID hub size can you make me one off hub/concentric rings that will incorporate centering the rims and the rotor? These new 18inch rims are evil when you try to lug center them… (I will not ask for the rotor ID to do my own, as I know this is a no-no ) I understand that I will pay more for the rings, but I would like to simplify my set up as best I can (not having to run two hub rings atop one another if possible)

Thanks for the interest!

1. Correct. I am planning to adapt the stock cables by using an extended sleeve between the caliper bracket and cable sleeve and then an extention to the actual pull cable to the e-brake level on the caliper... or atleast that is my theory right now.

2. Yes, since the rotors will slide over the old wheel hub, this upgrade will push the wheels out board some amount. My test rotor isn't here yet, so I can not confirm what that thickness will be, but it should be in the 1/4" range

3. Currently none of the common fiero brake kits offer a dual purpose concetric ring for the rotors and the wheels, and I really do not wish to expend the time/effort to start making them, especially since I try to use existing off the shelf wheel concetric rings whenever possible to keep machine work/cost to a minimum. My personal fiero has ran the WCF C4 setup since 2005 where the rotor had its concetric ring and the wheel had its own as well. Never was an issue.

cant afford them now with x-mas around corner ...but im very interested...great work

going with the vette upgrade on my car, but since I'm keeping the calipers in hope of getting to use them in a slightly different project later on...

The one problem I see is this: the 84-87 caliper seems to have been designed exclusively for the 9,5" rotor. Does it actually sit properly on a 12"+ rotor? I recall testing that at one point (while I had a fresh rear rotor for my DD available and the calipers were off the fiero anyway) and as I recall it the caliper would sit too far off the rotor (in the radial direction) such that part of the pad would likely sit outside of the rotor (which would be slightly dangerous). I'd love to be wrong on this though

quote Originally posted by PerKr: going with the vette upgrade on my car, but since I'm keeping the calipers in hope of getting to use them in a slightly different project later on... The one problem I see is this: the 84-87 caliper seems to have been designed exclusively for the 9,5" rotor. Does it actually sit properly on a 12"+ rotor?

I do not have my 12 3/4" mock up rotor yet, but here is a mock up on my 13" rotors used on the 88's. This rotor is a bit too large for the caliper and pad to sit perfect, but it is very close and I am hoping the 12 3/4" will be small enough. If not, the caliper could be clearanced slightly on the edges (black marker in the last pic) to allow it to sit closer to the rotor and bring the pad 100% onto the rotor. This portion of the caliper is pointed, so a little work with a file could get you the extra 1/16" that I think "might" be needed.





I am hoping the actual rotor for this kit will be here by the end of the week and I can verify fitment... but it looks promising based on what I have seen so far.

Will this help with braking performance or is it just for looks.

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Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.53@126.7

Appears to be mainly for looks, I don't think the 84-87 calipers are very good at all are they?

quote Originally posted by Justinbart: Will this help with braking performance or is it just for looks.

Going to the larger rotor will result in an approximate 35% increase in mechanical leverage, which should result in greater stopping performance and brake modulation at the limit. The larger mass and surface area will also reduce the tendency for brake fade (but not be as good in this regard as a vented rotor setup).

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: Granted doing this on an 84-87 would require keeping the solid rotors, but it should still provide close to a 35% braking improvement based on caliper location and the larger size/weight would also help reduce brake fade.

Morning bump!

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 11-16-2011).]

A little nudge right before the weekend!

Very interesting! Keep us posted.

Tony

Interested. I can modify my front rotors here, and buy the bigger rotors. So I guess I would just need a basic kit.

Thanks everyone for the interest in a solid rotor upgrade!

quote Originally posted by Fiero_Adam: I can modify my front rotors here, and buy the bigger rotors. So I guess I would just need a basic kit.

My brake kits are new designs and not a copy of any previous kit. As such, I am not sharing the source of my rotors and will not be selling a "basic kit" of just the brackets/rings. I am offering a $100 credit if you turn your own front hubs.

The rotor for the front is here... and it is quite larger compared to the stock rotors:




I might have some time to drill it with the 5x100 pattern and knock out the front bracket design on Sunday.

The rear needs a slightly different rotor that isn't as deep (unless I really want to cut the caliper mounting ears off and use the wheel bearing bolts for the caliper bracket) and I have a couple of options - one is slightly deeper than the stock rotor (similar depth to the LeBaron rotor) and one that is slightly shallower than the stock rotors. I need to check clearance between the caliper and the front face of the wheel to see how much clearance there is and if the shallower rotor would fit (it is the larger of the two).

I am very interested but I only have 16in wheels. Also do you think a S-10 break booster upgrade would also improve the stopping power?

quote Originally posted by fierogt27: I am very interested but I only have 16in wheels. Also do you think a S-10 break booster upgrade would also improve the stopping power?

This kit should fit under a 16" wheel, but I have not confirmed it yet (my 13" 88 kit fits under my 16" wheels though).

The S10 brake booster increases pressure at the calipers and will improve stopping power for a couple of hard stops or as long as the brakes stay cool. Once the stock 84-87 rotors get heated up and start to experience brake fade, then the added pressure of the S10 booster will not be of any significant benefit. It is a great upgrade for a commuter car but doesn't do much in regards to improving brake fade resistance.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 11-19-2011).]

What could be done to improve the pre 88 breaking system for say spirited driving? I like the idea of your kit being as cheap as it is, as well as being able to keep the e-break, but I do want "performance" breaks.

quote Originally posted by fierogt27: What could be done to improve the pre 88 breaking system for say spirited driving? I like the idea of your kit being as cheap as it is, as well as being able to keep the e-break, but I do want "performance" breaks.

There are quite a few options for a more performance oriented brake upgrades available from WCF and bmwguru is selling an C4 12" vented brake upgrade for the 84-87... might want to check them out.

Drilled the 12 3/4" rotor for the 5x100 pattern and started the mockup process. To get the pad fully seated on the rotor, I did have to take out a file and clearance the inside lip of the caliper about 1/8":



Now the pad can be fully seated on the rotor:



The bracket will need to connect the 4 bolt locations and position the caliper at the proper depth vs. the rotor.



This is probably as far as I will get before thanksgiving...

pre xmas bump....any updates?

The rear set of calipers that MstangsBware donated to the project arrived today. Other than that, not much progress at this time.

Looks great Paul. Everyone's talking about this, there's probably two dozen pm's from random people in my inbox about the project. I'm hoping some of the people I don't like are going to buy them, install them, overload their tire's coefficient of grip with the additional weight, and die in a gasoline fire. Keep up the good work! :raisedbeer:

[This message has been edited by L67 (edited 12-19-2011).]

quote Originally posted by L67: Looks great Paul. Everyone's talking about this, there's probably two dozen pm's from random people in my inbox about the project. I'm hoping some of the people I don't like are going to buy them, install them, overload their tire's coefficient of grip with the additional weight, and die in a gasoline fire. Keep up the good work! :raisedbeer:

WOW now your wishing members buy the kit and injure or get killed thats pretty mean!!! The break kit has not been provin to be dangerous...... Are you qualified to prove to us without resonable doubt......you will have to explain that Bugatti Veyron brakes are very dangerous too....

EDITED: for not trashing this thread ....
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My Build Thread
http://www.tylerstoy.com
My LED marker kits for sale

[This message has been edited by Danyel (edited 12-20-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Danyel: The break kit has not been proovin to be dangerous......

I was talking about the brake kit. I'm sure a break kit would break. Paul build's excellent stuff, I don't think anything he's developing here would have any problems.

It's like saying, "I hope the person who installs that big engine drives the car off the road and hits a tree." *cough cough*. Not that anything's wrong with the engine or car, just that it requires more skill to handle.

L67 Does sound like your wishing harm to anyone who has big brakes and powerful engine !!! Even the BEST drivers can have a streak of BAD LUCK ..... NEVER WISH harm upon others for IT WILL HAPPEN TO YOU ....

merry christmas osticon !!!!!

Danyel

[This message has been edited by Danyel (edited 12-20-2011).]

You're right.. you're right...

WOW!!
death by fire...in a FIERO...no one would ever worry about that...lol
IT A FIERO.....I don"t really think the lack of driving ability, big brakes, high horse power motors or exceeding the tires limits of adhesion is going to cause that firey death!!!!
Then again the ford pinto was a car-b-que!!!! no one hopped them up so i guess one could say driving ability was the cause.... lol

You guys need to chill out and keep my thread focused on developing a new brake kit for the 84-87...

If this thread gets trashed, I will trash the project as well.

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: You guys need to chill out and keep my thread focused on developing a new brake kit for the 84-87... If this thread gets trashed, I will trash the project as well.

I'm one of the first in line once you get this done ... no issues with me ... I just dont get some people's trash posts as if your kit will cause deaths etc etc etc.

play nice folks... This kit is exactly what I need....

I have been watching and following this grow into something since Raydar first told me at our Nov. club meeting. I was all set to go with the fiero addiction style that bmwguru is making but the wife had a meltdown. The cost of the new calipers broke that idea. $ is just not justifiable when I have already dumped money into new stock calipers, master cylinder, prop valve, e-brake lines, stainless brake lines... Ugh... I was dumb and thought with each step this time it will fix it..... Yeah now I have a practically new brake system that does not like my new 18s... Lol...

ok so it retains the solid rotors.... That will work for now... Plus this kit I think I can get the wife on board for. I'm not autocrossing or racing this car. I just need a bit more out of the brakes. So perfect for me. I don't want this thread or especially this idea to not come to fruition. This is the planned use for my tax return...

Again... Please play nice for the sake of the folks that really can benefit from this kit. Thank you!

edit: plus its easier to go back "Indy" correct this way when the time comes...

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Rescued & resuscitated 1984 Indy Fiero SE Pace Car Replica #770 presently reversibly modified!
SE: Stormtrooper Edition


Everything is the Previous owners fault

[This message has been edited by redraif (edited 12-20-2011).]

I think I'll be interested in this at some point in the new year, I assume you'll have no issue with shipping to the UK?

quote Originally posted by Danyel: I'm one of the first in line once you get this done ... no issues with me ... I just dont get some people's trash posts as if your kit will cause deaths etc etc etc.

You say there are "no issues with me" but as they say "it takes two to tango".
Once you went on a tirade after the comment posted, you became an equal contributor to the degredation of this thread.

If someone wants to have a constructive discussion about unspring weight, I am all for having one. The final result of this design process will be a balance/compromize of cost, easy of install, performance and unsprung weight. Focusing solely on one aspect tends to drive one or more of the others to the extreme. I can make the brake kit super light, but it will cost significantly more. I can keep costs to a minimum using stock parts, but it will not be the lightest.