Ok, I'm not one to post up these kind of thread, but Chris West of WCF has taken the word Bullsh!t to a new level.

To give you a little background on what has transpired, I will sum it up. I was testing Charlie's "Ultimate car buildoff swap" after we added more performance mods this year. Unfortunately, the engine output level exceeded the durability of the worn Getrag and the getrag blew into pieces.

Charlie wanted to eventually upgrade the transmission to a 6 speed, but after the issues we were having with another 3800/F40, I did not want to go that route until the bugs have been worked out with the clutch and axles.

Note: We could have purchased a used Getrag, sent it to be cyro treated and rebuilt and had the car back in Charlie's hands inside of a few weeks.

So, after speaking with Chris West of WCF, he told me that he sold quite a few F40/3800 kits and it would be easy....a 3 week turnaround and $3295.00 plus shipping. Charlie agreed. I asked specifically if he had issues with the clutch or the axles like I had before. Chris assured me that it was not a problem.

So in early May, the process began and I paid WCF in full.

Three weeks goes by and Chris said they were a few weeks behind waiting on the bushings to arrive. Not a big deal. I know delays happen. A few more weeks and still nothing. Finally, mounts arrive and my credit card is charged for the shipping. Not a big deal. But, only the mounts?????
A few more weeks go by. Emails are sent back and forth between me, Charlie and WCF. Then the shift cables arrive....and another shipping charge. Yay!

All during this, I am inquiring about the clutch. We initially paid for a twin disc clutch and aluminum flywheel. It was an extra $500. Then Chris wound up trying to fit a Porsche single disc clutch which didn't work. I said to him that we could use a Spec stage 3+ clutch and flywheel to make it easy. He said it would never hold the torque. We went back and forth for a few weeks about this matter. If he couldn't get a clutch, I wanted to use the Spec. Chris said he wouldn't let me use that because it wouldn't hold. I told him that it wasn't his concern and we installed a Stage 3+ behind a LS3 Fiero, a turbo 3800 and many other 3800s/c swaps with no issues.

By the time we hit 10 weeks past the promised time, I call Chris and I give some attitude. "Charlie would like to drive his car sometime this year. If I had known about the delay, we would have taken another route. Where are the parts?" Finally, last week after being promised that we would have the clutch and flywheel in our hands every Friday for three weeks, Chris says he needs another week. I let him know that is unacceptable and I will source my own clutch and flywheel. He says the axles are having issues as well and I tell him to cancel the order, refund my credit card for $2445.00 because he sent us $850 in parts.

Now it comes down to me calling my bank to do a chargeback on the credit card because he hasn't refunded the money. So, now we are out $2445 and three months of our time.

I don't know what the excuse is...nor do I really care at this point. The fact is, don't lie to me and tell me that you have the parts and you are shipping them to me overnight and not do it.....and make me call you to find out what is going on. Their complete lack of communication was horrible. Every time I called, they had no clue who I was. I used to tell everyone who called me looking for mounts and other Fiero specific parts to call WCF for them. Now I will never recommend them to anyone again.

I would go on about the nonsense and excuses, but I believe that I made my point. I have every email saved between WCF, Charlie and me. My shop's attorney that I keep on retainer has been briefed and my bank has been called. I should not have had to waste my time taking me away from my business to do this.

Dave

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www.hausofguru.com

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: So, after speaking with Chris West of WCF, he told me that he sold quite a few F40/3800 kits and it would be easy....a 3 week turnaround and $3295.00 plus shipping. Charlie agreed. I asked specifically if he had issues with the clutch or the axles like I had before. Chris assured me that it was not a problem.

Sorry about this man. I'm curious, if they've sold SO many of these combos, where are the finished 3800/F40 cars? I still haven't seen one that's near the stage mine is at. I think people are either lying about these being done, they're much further behind where people think they are, or everyone that's doing them is keeping it out of the forum.

Imagine my surprise.

Seriously, I have been reading posts like this about WCF for years. Good luck with your build.

It does seem a lot of builds aren't hitting the forum due lately. I haven't posted a thread yet for my orange and black GT Saab 2.8t swap yet.

One thing I left out....

Since I will have to source my own axles because WCF couldn't get a set made. I asked Chris what intermediate axle (jackshaft) they set their engine mount up for so that I can buy one. Chris told me a 2006 G6 with automatic transmission. Correct me if I am wrong, but the automatic doesn't use a jackshaft due to the transmission being the 4T65-e.

I'm not 100% certain about that yet, but I am confused if he is trying to send me on a wild goose chase or if my local sources are incorrect about the jackshaft.

Dave

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: It does seem a lot of builds aren't hitting the forum due lately. I haven't posted a thread yet for my orange and black GT Saab 2.8t swap yet. One thing I left out.... Since I will have to source my own axles because WCF couldn't get a set made. I asked Chris what intermediate axle (jackshaft) they set their engine mount up for so that I can buy one. Chris told me a 2006 G6 with automatic transmission. Correct me if I am wrong, but the automatic doesn't use a jackshaft due to the transmission being the 4T65-e. I'm not 100% certain about that yet, but I am confused if he is trying to send me on a wild goose chase or if my local sources are incorrect about the jackshaft. Dave

Have you looked into the Cobalt SS turbo axles yet? From what other people were saying, they might be an option?

My plan is to get the jackshaft installed and then measure for custom axles from there, but I'm not sure of what jackshaft the WCF is set up for.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Imagine my surprise. Seriously, I have been reading posts like this about WCF for years. Good luck with your build.

Same here.

I generally do not like to join in on a negative topic, but like another member has mentioned; These threads have been popping up on PFF for many, many years. As long as I have been on PFF I have found these threads made on a pretty regular basis. You can almost verbatim cut and paste your description (only changing the name of the parts) and the text would be interchangable with every other complaint thread on the forum.

One thing I would mention that I have noticed in nearly 10 years. These complaints about WCF seem nearly 100% confined to out of state customers. I have met quite a few local folks here in CA who have had nothing but good things to say about them. I would hazzard a guess that this fact is directly related to the ability of these local guys to take a not much more than 2-4 hour drive to actually walk in to the shop.

There is nothing worse in car hobby than being excited about a purchase, getting screwed, and the whole debacle souring your project you were previously jazzed about.

Good luck to you

Maybe WCF doesn't understand that I am the type of person to get on a plane, visit WCF in person and then take the rest of my 4 day weekend hitting the beach.

Dave

I would not not yet put West Coast Fieros in the same catagory as Fast Fieros. Loyde Roscoe is an outright theif who blatantly ripped dozens of Fiero owners off. My friend Onix lost something like $12,000 + shipping (both ways) for a 3800SC swap that was not even begun. He was lucky to even get his car back
Chris West may be a man who may be somewhat lackadaisical about things. Either he has lower prorities, just cannot keep up or manage his business well enough to deliver everything in a timely and efficient manner. Remember Ryan Markowich??? It took WCF 8 months to deliver a set of SS headers to him. He didn't rip off Ryan but the service and delivery time on those headers was abysmal. On the other hand WCF has delivered parts to me in 2 weeks. Go figure!
WCF delivers promptly on some products while others can go on for months and months. Whether or not WCF will become the next Loyde of Fast Fieros remains to be seen but three months and no product delivery is just plain unacceptable. Promising something that cannot be realisitically be built and shipped will get you into trouble every time.
Hope that you get your $2445 back. I cannot see WCF contesting the charge back and I hope that this is the case. As for the G6 axles I would locate a set and check them out before buying. Local Salvage yards might even have them. If you are a subscriber to Alldata, something might be listed there. Good luck and keep us posted.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

I still think this is the Car Gods saying Charlie needs to get a F23

Its funny as mentioned above, with all of the supposed business, I have seen only 1 car from them and that is Chris West's Fiero with the plexiglass plenum cover. I have NEVER seen another car that he has done. It's like the car gets built, given to the owner, and then hidden away. From what I have read in multiple threads, even the coilover kits don't fit correctly and people have a struggle just to get information from WCF and/or modify the kits themselves. Hopefully he is not going the the Loyde direction and if it is the "local pickup" issue, he shouldn't even be in business if he has a communication issue with other people who are not local in California.

[This message has been edited by IMSA GT (edited 08-04-2012).]

Dave - PM sent...

A lot of the frustration stems back to the lack of communication and unwillingness to take advice. I made it quite clear in the very beginning that time was a crucial factor. If the kit could not be completed in the timeframe promised, then we wouldn't purchase it. Secondly, when Chris ran into trouble with the clutch, I told him that I was fine with the Spec clutch and he could work on the axles and leave the clutch to me....just refund the portion for the clutch and flywheel.

Third, when Chris said that the axles weren't working out for him. I told him that I used V8 Archie's axles last time and they had an interference issue with the oil filter housing. Archie warned me of that up front and we modified the housing to clear the axle. I asked Chris if he was running into the same issue and he claimed he was working with Empi to have "on the shelf" axles made for it.
I didn't see a valid reason for that concidering the extended timeframe. I had my VR6 Fiero axles made at the driveshaft shop in 10 days. If they have issues, I can buy either Fiero ends or VW ends and fix it....or if the axles shaft itself fails, I order another.

Dave

I'm sorry Dave, this whole thing is my fault. If I would have gotten that getrag to you, you wouldn't have had to go thru any this. -Jason

This makes me sad. I have been around since Phil Huff & FOCOA. I knew Lloyd through the AAFO in San Antonio & NTFC in Dallas. I haven't bought much from them in the past, but probaly will not buy from them any at all now. It is hard for people to make a living completely off Fieros. However there is nothing wrong with branching out like Rodney, TLG, The Fiero Factory, Mr. Mike's & Russ Wormuth. People just need to tell the truth. It has worked for Archie, because he is honest and straight foward.

I wish you the best.

Mike Parker

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: My plan is to get the jackshaft installed and then measure for custom axles from there, but I'm not sure of what jackshaft the WCF is set up for.

If it can help at all, I have a 2007 Chevy Cobalt SS intermediate axle shaft that I can measure up for you... that's what I'm using on my N*/F40 combination.

quote Originally posted by Fierofreak00: I'm sorry Dave, this whole thing is my fault. If I would have gotten that getrag to you, you wouldn't have had to go thru any this. -Jason

Jason,

This has nothing to do with that Getrag I want from you. That Getrag is for my personal car. Charlie's car has been down for weeks prior to us talking.

Dave

This is nothing new and this issue has been going on with WCF for the last 10 years. A little search of the Forum would have shown this same issue coming up over and over. WCF is known for not being able to deliver parts on time and poor communication. A little research would have saved you 10 months of downtime and all this trouble that you are now going thru. I hate to say it but this is just not a WCF issue either it is a common issue among several Fiero vendors that are trying to make it.

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: Maybe WCF doesn't understand that I am the type of person to get on a plane, visit WCF in person and then take the rest of my 4 day weekend hitting the beach. Dave

When I read your first post in this thread, I remember thinking, "Awshit. This is gonna be interesting."

Hell he was a dick with me back in 2004 so I have never bought again from there nor told anyone to . He argued a incorrect part he made then chewed me out when I tried to explain to him what was wrong. I emailed him pictures but he would never get them so I realized he was yanking my chain. I had a witness to all the phone conversations and he is not a pleasant guy to deal with at all. I don't care if he was selling gold at half price I wouldn't attempt to be screwed with again. Rick B

Someone should compile all the WCF rip-off threads and we can sticky that thread at the top of general chat as a warning.
I know I had one myself in the early 2000's where their mounts didn't fit at all.
.

Seems to me this forum (hey Cliff!) could maybe use some moderators or some kind of panel to resolve issues between vendors and forum members. There's always two sides to every story (Although Lloyde may be an exception), and sometmes it doesn't take a giant effort to resolve issues that seem serious to one party or the other. The Corvette Forum does this and it works pretty well.

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87 GT, Ramjet 350 SBC, 6-Spd
Melbourne, FL

Bottom line is Chris never had this kit, but convinced us he had already sold several of these kits. He was more than happy to take the full charge up front on May 4th, but when we started asking questions in June about missing his promised 3 week production time...we kept getting excuses about waiting for bushings, then waiting for mounts, then waiting for parts. It wasn't until the end of June that he finally shipped the mounts then at the beginning of July shipped the cables. In my email exchanges with him he could tell I was pissed about his delays. When I did talk to him he told me he was working out the issues with the clutch and that he didn't have the axles either. When questioned about why he failed to deliver in 3 weeks as he promised he threw tech BS at me, but it was easy for me to see it for what it was...BS. When Dave contacted him on July 12th to find out what the status was Chris claimed he was still "working out issues with the clutch" and still didn't have the axles started. Dave and I discussed the fact that he clearly didn't have this kit and kept giving us excuses so he could develop a kit he was marketing that he had not sold, developed, or tested as he alleged on his website. Dave emailed Chris on July 13th cancelling the items not delivered, but Chris ignored that and promised Dave he would have the clutch ready on the following Friday. That Friday (July 20th) came and went...and no response from Chris regarding where the clutch was. When Dave spoke to him on Monday the 22nd Chris promised he would have the clutch in Dave's hands by Friday the 27th. Dave...after numerous attempts got thru to him on the 26th and Chris claimed to have a clutch in hand. When Dave told Chris to overnight it since Chris promised it would be in Dave's hands by the Friday the 27th...he quickly backpedaled and said he couldn't overnight it. When Dave questioned him regarding why not if he did have the clutch in hand as he claimed Chris stated the clutch wouldn't work and needed more time. Dave knew I was tired of the lies and BS back in June so now that he finally had Chris on the phone he cancelled the undelivered parts and demanded the refund. Chris promptly hung up on him. Sounds alot like someone else that started off making promises to people after taking their money...making excuses for why he didn't provide what was paid for up front...requesting more time. For Dave to have to call his bank to initiate the chargeback because Chris is avoiding him and has failed to refund the money shows his intent. A crook is a crook! I'll never order from Chris again. I've missed Carlisle, Pete's cruises, and numerous other Fiero gatherings because WCF chose to lie about a product the didn't have, hadn't produced, and clearly had no clue how to produce it. After 3 months of "we're working on it" and "we're waiting for parts" the BS meter was shorted out. Dave was able to get a clutch meeting our specifications within a week and a half from Spec. The axles can be done in about the same time from the vendor that made his axles for his VR6 drivetrain. Both the clutch and axles will still be far less expensive than what WCF had charged. I've had my Forgelines in my shed and the tires at the shop since May.

quote Originally posted by Charlie64: Bottom line is Chris never had this kit, but convinced us he had already sold several of these kits. He was more than happy to take the full charge up front on May 4th, but when we started asking questions in June about missing his promised 3 week production time...we kept getting excuses about waiting for bushings, then waiting for mounts, then waiting for parts. It wasn't until the end of June that he finally shipped the mounts then at the beginning of July shipped the cables. In my email exchanges with him he could tell I was pissed about his delays. When I did talk to him he told me he was working out the issues with the clutch and that he didn't have the axles either. When questioned about why he failed to deliver in 3 weeks as he promised he threw tech BS at me, but it was easy for me to see it for what it was...BS. When Dave contacted him on July 12th to find out what the status was Chris claimed he was still "working out issues with the clutch" and still didn't have the axles started. Dave and I discussed the fact that he clearly didn't have this kit and kept giving us excuses so he could develop a kit he was marketing that he had not sold, developed, or tested as he alleged on his website. Dave emailed Chris on July 13th cancelling the items not delivered, but Chris ignored that and promised Dave he would have the clutch ready on the following Friday. That Friday (July 20th) came and went...and no response from Chris regarding where the clutch was. When Dave spoke to him on Monday the 22nd Chris promised he would have the clutch in Dave's hands by Friday the 27th. Dave...after numerous attempts got thru to him on the 26th and Chris claimed to have a clutch in hand. When Dave told Chris to overnight it since Chris promised it would be in Dave's hands by the Friday the 27th...he quickly backpedaled and said he couldn't overnight it. When Dave questioned him regarding why not if he did have the clutch in hand as he claimed Chris stated the clutch wouldn't work and needed more time. Dave knew I was tired of the lies and BS back in June so now that he finally had Chris on the phone he cancelled the undelivered parts and demanded the refund. Chris promptly hung up on him. Sounds alot like someone else that started off making promises to people after taking their money...making excuses for why he didn't provide what was paid for up front...requesting more time. For Dave to have to call his bank to initiate the chargeback because Chris is avoiding him and has failed to refund the money shows his intent. A crook is a crook! I'll never order from Chris again. I've missed Carlisle, Pete's cruises, and numerous other Fiero gatherings because WCF chose to lie about a product the didn't have, hadn't produced, and clearly had no clue how to produce it. After 3 months of "we're working on it" and "we're waiting for parts" the BS meter was shorted out. Dave was able to get a clutch meeting our specifications within a week and a half from Spec. The axles can be done in about the same time from the vendor that made his axles for his VR6 drivetrain. Both the clutch and axles will still be far less expensive than what WCF had charged. I've had my Forgelines in my shed and the tires at the shop since May.

Sounds like WCF wants its customers to fund its R & D on new products. Again there is NO excuse for taking seveal thousand dollars for a product that doesn't yet exist, then delivering it whenver you feel like it. I know a guy who waited 8 months for a set of WCF 3800 SS headers. Sure WCF delivered but the delivery time was abysmal.. Perhaps its best to order only products from WCF that they have delivered time and time again.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

"Perhaps its best to order only products from WCF that they have delivered time and time again"


Or how about not at all?

What is it with shops these days? Make me sick. A promise is a promise, a deal is a deal. No matter what you do once its broken, the trust will never be there again.

My advice, if you can do it yourself, do it. I had my own dealing with WCF back in 2001. It didn't end well.......

I would remind everyone here , no one takes the time to post how awesome or great there experiences are with vendors normally. Since everyone will take the time to Bash a Vendor , I will take the time to say Chris has always come through for me .

Sorry things didn't workout for the OP, hope your new setup works out.

I had ordered a center console subbox from them, and they took forever to make it. I had to email several times to check in after weeks had gone by, and when it arrived it was thrown together and didnt fit properly. Couldnt even shift, becuase the holes had been cut wrong.

quote Originally posted by Kemp3: I would remind everyone here , no one takes the time to post how awesome or great there experiences are with vendors normally.

There are TONS of threads with people simply stating how awesome Rodney Dickman and his parts are. Occasionally some others, like Mr. Mike's. There are good and great Fiero vendors out there.

I'll also add, my one and only dealing so far with V8 Archie was awesome, I called their number and spoke with him directly, I recognized his voice immediately from the V8 install video. He was willing to talk to me to place a measly $45 order for a battery box, got it shipped out right away, came well packaged with good instructions, very nice product.

I order parts from Rodney all the time. Archie has always been good to me too. I just ordered a part for Charlie's F40 off him and hetold me it would be a few days before he could get the parts and ship them. The next day, I am emailed a tracking number.
When I developed my brake kit, I didn't take any money until I tested the product and had them ready to ship. The second batch I let everyone up front that there would be a wait.

If Chris let me know on day 1 that it would be more than 6 weeks to have a completed kit in my hands, I would have said "no thanks" and went a different route. I was very clear about the timeframe I am working with in every conversation with him.

Dave

When they blame the customer for their sorry ass work is when I say enough.Oh and the delays
Never went back,never will.

Well that kinda sums up BOTH !

quote Originally posted by Kemp3: I would remind everyone here , no one takes the time to post how awesome or great there experiences are with vendors normally. Since everyone will take the time to Bash a Vendor , I will take the time to say Chris has always come through for me . Sorry things didn't workout for the OP, hope your new setup works out.

And you live how far away from WCF?

That was one of the points made in this thread. If you live close enough to drive to WCF without a lot of trouble, you're more likely to get good service.
People farther east, however...

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 08-05-2012).]

I'll put up $10 for your ticket to West Coast! These unreliable vendors need to be taught a lesson!

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It's a CAR, now drive it!!

http://community.webshots.c...rx32?vhost=community

Any chance you can post actual proof rather than hearsay? I really like to see both sides to every story before I jump on the "hes a thief, hang him" band wagon.

I have read on here that WCF is pretty much a part time activity and not their main line of business. I don't think that's an excuse for a bad attitude but it may explain the 'slowness'.
I know that when I had phoned in the past the response on the phone really was pretty much "yeah, waddya want!?". How hard is it to tell your employes that if you pick up the phone you at least try to act like a business (and don't answer the phone if you can't).
The clutch and engine mounts I ordered from them came pretty quickly so maybe I was lucky or maybe it's because this was a few years ago. Only issue I had was that a nut on one of the bolts was not the correct nut for the bolt thread. Maybe a minor thing but how hard is it to know that the nut is the wrong one. Whilst overall everything was fine, stupid little things like that make me wonder about overall quality control and 'attitude' towards making sure thing are right before they go out the door. (This in not the only Fiero related vendor I have 'quality control' issues with either but that's a different story).

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Anything I might say is probably worth what you paid for it, so treat it accordingly!

Dave

www.ltlfrari.com

The way to rectify all of this is very simple but for some reason vendors shy away from simply being honest. A disclaimer on the main page of his website stating that "All parts are made to order and are not currently in stock with up to a 4 month waiting period." Thats what I do when I make carbon fiber parts for people. I warn them that it may take me up to a year to make the part, I take NO money up front, and I also inform them that my real job takes up 99% of my time. I can only work on a part in my VERY limited free time. It seems to have worked out fine for me all these years. Yes, it does bring a little frustration on the part of the customer but it is better than taking their money, lying, and giving them some shitty part 6 months to a year later.