Last week Iran's ambassador to Lisbon, who in the past served as a diplomat in Poland, said in an interview on Portuguese radio that according to his calculations based on a visit to the camp, now a museum, it would have taken the Nazis 15 years to burn the corpses of 6 million people.
Although the number keeps on going up through the years. In the 1970's, it was 3 million, and they tend to add a half a million every 5 years or so. Last I check it is somewhere between 7 to 9 million that they speculate.
Although we tend to associate the holocaust with jews, it actually was much more than just them. Many Gypises, Turks, Arabs and plenty of soviets and their sympathisers were a part of the holocaust. It wasn't just jews.
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11:36 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 38048 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
Although we tend to associate the holocaust with jews, it actually was much more than just them. Many Gypises, Turks, Arabs and plenty of soviets and their sympathisers were a part of the holocaust. It wasn't just jews.
Wichita, perhaps "soviets and their sympathisers" covers it, but you neglected to mention the commies and the socialists they gassed. Maybe throw in homosexuals as well for good measure.
not every one was killed in one camp there were many camps many never made it to the camps but are still counted in the totals in the camp system about 12,000,000 died in the nazi terror some were shot on site, some died in transit, some in the camps about 1/2 were jews
WW2 killed about 20,000,000 russian civilians and about 10,000,000 troops mostly russian china also lost huge numbers of people to the japs
our bombing also killed millions
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 02-27-2006).]
It's not the number its the evil that matters. Evil like this is a stain on humanity and should never happen again. Like the A-bombs on Japan. Not rearly as bad in its motive but something that must never ever happen again.
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12:14 AM
Scott-Wa Member
Posts: 5392 From: Tacoma, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2002
Although the number keeps on going up through the years. In the 1970's, it was 3 million, and they tend to add a half a million every 5 years or so. Last I check it is somewhere between 7 to 9 million that they speculate.
Where did you get that from? The numbers are drawn right from German records, one thing they did that like no other was keep records. Incredibly detailed records. It wasn't like Laos, Cambodia, Turkey and other places with millions died and no one can document most of it. The Germans took movies, pictures, did accounting, inventories etc etc... The variations in count I've seen are mostly revisionist (Hey they didn't kill 6 million... it was ONLY 3 million, dang sneaky jews are bumping the numbers... yea... that's it, you'd think they'd get over it. /end sacracsm)
quote
Originally posted by Wichita: Although we tend to associate the holocaust with jews, it actually was much more than just them. Many Gypises, Turks, Arabs and plenty of soviets and their sympathisers were a part of the holocaust. It wasn't just jews.
Very true, invalids, mentally retarded, handicapped, gypsies, etc etc...
The surviving jewish population learned a lesson and they pound it in. "Never Forget" is the mantra of those who learned the hard way about how easy it is for a nation to turn bad and commit horrific acts. Those involved realise how easy it is to say "It could never happen here", most of them happened to say the same thing. Germany was the center of art and culture prior to the fascists.
This saying appears in many different forms, but the earliest version is probably that of the poet and philosopher George Santayana: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
One of the reasons I tend to jump in and speak up when I see people proposing the same things that led to the rise of fascism in europe. Why it bothers me that I'm seeing a lot of it already in place here in the US.
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01:37 AM
Patrick Member
Posts: 38048 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
Interestingly enough, I was just at the home today of a client of mine who is a survivor of one of the notorious death camps. He was an Austrian Jew who was taken away by the Germans as a teenaged boy. For quite a few years he's done talks to local school students about his horrible experiences there. Until recently he still had the tatooed number on his forearm from the camp.
It's unbelievable what "civilized" people can do to each other.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 02-27-2006).]
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01:52 AM
Notorio Member
Posts: 2992 From: Temecula, CA Registered: Oct 2003
Originally posted by Scott-Wa: The numbers are drawn right from German records, one thing they did that like no other was keep records.
And those records (and much more) were made possible by ... IBM, via its "independent" subsidiary Dehomag. If you have the time, there is a long but excellent book on the subject, IBM and the Holocaust, by Edwin Black, but here is a link to the author's summary. I read a lot of history and have to say it looked well researched to me, on top of being well written.
Doh! Forgot to include the original link, which I can't find now, so here is a new one ...
Originally posted by Patrick: It's unbelievable what "civilized" people can do to each other.
The horror is in the fact that it is compleatly believable in the madness men are capable of.
But it is just as horrorable that the possiable precursor to that very thing is happening today. It wears a different face, calls itself a different name, and declares it's nesessity in the name of freedom. And everyone I talk to is 100% for it.
Suspects being held without being charged. In secret prisons. By the U.S. In secret countries. That condone torture.
But it's always been that way. The rules of law & fairplay don't apply when it's in the name of making the World safe from undesirables.
The problem is, it's getting harder to tell just who the undesirables are. Oh, wait. Our masters will tell us what they think we need to know! See! The more things change, the more they remain the same!
Questions? I wouldn't.
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02:28 AM
PFF
System Bot
Fierochic88 Member
Posts: 4984 From: Staunton, VA Registered: May 2001
6 million easily - and that was only 6 million Jews...there were about 5 million others killed by the Nazis. These people were Gypsies, the handicapped, homosexuals, Jehovah's witnesses, political dissidents, and those of the Slavic Race (Poles, Russians etc.). The 6 million figure, like someone pointed out, was not entirely from the death camps. 1.5 million Jews were killed by the Einsatzgruppen, mobile killing squads that followed the German armies as they advanced in the Eastern front. These mobile killing squads would enter a town, round up the Jews and drive them to an area outside of the town where they would force them to dig a ditch and then summarily exectute the entire population, leaving only a few behind to cover up the ditch.
Many Jews also died in the ghettos. The first ghetto opened up in 1939 and conditions were highly unsanitary and resulted in a lot of deaths from typhus and/or malnutrition. The first concentration camp opened in 1933 (Dachau) and the first death/extermination camp (Chelmno) opened in 1941. Ironically the first actual gassing in Chelmno (the first gassing in a camp period) occurred on December 7, 1941. Many of the early victims were buried in pits, crematoriums didn't actually start operating until 1942. There were six actual "extermination camps" where killing Jews were a priority. There were several hundred "concentration camps" where Jews (and others) died as a result of forced labor, malnutrition and disease.
I mentioned this in another thread, but there is an excellent book called Denying History by Michael Shermer and Alex Grobman. It takes a look at the six main arguments that Holocaust deniers use and then breaks down how those arguments are definitely false. Even for someone who knows nothing about the Holocaust it would be a good read.
~ Jen
[This message has been edited by Fierochic88 (edited 02-27-2006).]
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09:51 AM
Wichita Member
Posts: 20688 From: Wichita, Kansas Registered: Jun 2002
Where did you get that from? The numbers are drawn right from German records, one thing they did that like no other was keep records. Incredibly detailed records. It wasn't like Laos, Cambodia, Turkey and other places with millions died and no one can document most of it. The Germans took movies, pictures, did accounting, inventories etc etc... The variations in count I've seen are mostly revisionist (Hey they didn't kill 6 million... it was ONLY 3 million, dang sneaky jews are bumping the numbers... yea... that's it, you'd think they'd get over it. /end sacracsm
Dude! You're so way off base on what you think I'm saying. This has nothing to do with revisionist theory, it's actually physical records and accounts. As you said. Documentation was one source of information.
I did some research in this area for a paper once. Yes! The Germans did keep meticulous records, but many of those records were destoryed when the Germans found out they were losing the war. We were only able to obtain some of them.
I checked out history books that where written about the holocaust in the 1970's. 3 Million was the number that they believed were killed. With technology, the iron curtain now down, and recent discoveries of new information and documents, they know that number to be much higher.
As of today, they ARE STILL finding more information about the holocaust, and to their horror, it was much larger than they previously thought.
If we knew the exact number, we would know down to the single person how many parished under the National Socialist German Workers Party, better known as the Nazi's.
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10:12 AM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
Last week Iran's ambassador to Lisbon, who in the past served as a diplomat in Poland, said in an interview on Portuguese radio that according to his calculations based on a visit to the camp, now a museum, it would have taken the Nazis 15 years to burn the corpses of 6 million people.
Revisionist crap! Why are you even paying attention to this horse **** ?
In the first place, they didn't burn them all. They shot and bured nearly half of the victims. In the second place let me simply point out that you have a choice between German Mathemeticians or Iranian Mathemeticians...tough choice.
And finally, whether the tally is 6 million or 6 doesn't change the horror of the act or lessen the culpability of the perpetrators.
I dont buy it one bit. Though I am not doubting a good number of them died in the camps it was no where near 6 million. Some of those camps had as little as 20 nazi gaurds. Thousands of jewish civilians could have overthrown guards no problem. The number grows every year and so does the cash flow. A jewish man from a research center was talking about how he wanted to use the money for the families who died in the holocaust to ease there pain in anyway possible. Oh really? i guess cash should be given out to thousands of black slaves and every other culture who has been through these types of things.
rense.com, once a site similar to Art Bell's UFO and Bigfoot fun and games, has in the years since 9/11 turned into a "I hate America" propoganda outlet for Bush bashers and Islam's appologists. As a matter of fact, I think I believe the UFO and Bigfoot stories on that site are more reliable than any political articles. Hollocost denial has been one of the big stories on that site for years, along with "Bush faked 9/11" stories, American agents and Jews are the insurgency in Iraq stories, America caused the Tsunami stories, and the usual crackpot conspiracy stories.
I swear, the crazy Iranian president gets his info straight from rense.com!
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06:50 PM
pokeyfiero Member
Posts: 16203 From: Free America! Registered: Dec 2003
I dont buy it one bit. Though I am not doubting a good number of them died in the camps it was no where near 6 million. Some of those camps had as little as 20 nazi gaurds. Thousands of jewish civilians could have overthrown guards no problem. The number grows every year and so does the cash flow. A jewish man from a research center was talking about how he wanted to use the money for the families who died in the holocaust to ease there pain in anyway possible. Oh really? i guess cash should be given out to thousands of black slaves and every other culture who has been through these types of things.
Funny you should mention just twenty guards. I saw a PBS documentary where they had a survivor who actually was in the line to the ovens. They were told many things like they were showers or other such excuses and he also said that at any time they could have overthrown their guards as there so very few. His explanation to this was terror. They held such a grip on them. Any one getting out of line and they shot the group with machine guns.
Sounds silly that these people walked to their deaths but the Germans had a plan and it worked.
As far as the rest of your disbelief rant I will say that nothing like this has happened in a civilized world and in such a short time frame before. So I can't see you comparing it to anything.
That dosen't change the fact that there is NO hard evidence of 6 million dieing. All we have is postwar testimony, mostly of individual "survivors" of the massacure. Alote of them died from causes of the war , many moved to america , middleast ,etc. Look at how much germany has shelled out to israel and individual survivors. Not to mention the fund raiseing campaigns for it till this day. There was also major fuel shortages during WWII germans did not have access to such amounts of fuel for the so called (burning pits) in which case you cannot completely dipose of that many bodys in a pit because of the lack of Oxygen. Many many jews died in the holocaust but not six million.
As far as the rest of your disbelief rant I will say that nothing like this has happened in a civilized world and in such a short time frame before. So I can't see you comparing it to anything.
how about the massacure that turks pulled? by slaugtering 100 of thousands of armenians? They were almost wiped out.
[This message has been edited by STIFFLER (edited 02-27-2006).]
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09:45 PM
sanderson Member
Posts: 2203 From: corpus christi, texas, usa Registered: Sep 2001
That dosen't change the fact that there is NO hard evidence of 6 million dieing. All we have is postwar testimony, mostly of individual "survivors" of the massacure. Alote of them died from causes of the war , many moved to america , middleast ,etc. Look at how much germany has shelled out to israel and individual survivors. Not to mention the fund raiseing campaigns for it till this day. There was also major fuel shortages during WWII germans did not have access to such amounts of fuel for the so called (burning pits) in which case you cannot completely dipose of that many bodys in a pit because of the lack of Oxygen. Many many jews died in the holocaust but not six million.
Go visit the Dachau or Anne Frank museums and you'll realize how horrific the Nazis were and why debating whether there is an accurate head count is meaningless. The Nazis were arrogant racists who viewed everyelse as subhuman.
Go visit the Dachau or Anne Frank museums and you'll realize how horrific the Nazis were and why debating whether there is an accurate head count is meaningless. The Nazis were arrogant racists who viewed everyelse as subhuman.
without a doubt.. that is not my argument. Im just stateing that 6 million is over estimated.
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11:10 PM
ltlfrari Member
Posts: 5356 From: Wake Forest,NC,USA Registered: Jan 2002
It wouldn't have done the Jews much good to overthrow the guards, which in most camps numbered far more than twenty. Most of the townspeople were against them and any escapees were quickly caught and sent to their deaths immediately.
As far as the number, I'll get back to you on that tonight.
~ Jen
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09:56 AM
Scott-Wa Member
Posts: 5392 From: Tacoma, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2002
That dosen't change the fact that there is NO hard evidence of 6 million dieing. All we have is postwar testimony, mostly of individual "survivors" of the massacure. Alote of them died from causes of the war , many moved to america , middleast ,etc. Look at how much germany has shelled out to israel and individual survivors. Not to mention the fund raiseing campaigns for it till this day. There was also major fuel shortages during WWII germans did not have access to such amounts of fuel for the so called (burning pits) in which case you cannot completely dipose of that many bodys in a pit because of the lack of Oxygen. Many many jews died in the holocaust but not six million.
Wow, what would you consider hard evidence? They made movies, took pictures, kept records that still exist. Yet you say NO hard evidence. You have the testimony of the survivors (Why did you quote that... you question if they went through what they claimed?) and the testimony of the guards.
How much money has Germany shelled out to Israel and individuals? What fund raising campaign? A fuel shortage is why you think it didn't happen?
If you really question the holocaust there is plenty of evidence out there to prove it to yourself. If you have reasons for not wanting to look at the tons of "hard evidence" you claim doesn't exist, so be it. One of the photos on that page I linked is a document from a camp commander reporting his capacity to burn bodies. There are photos of the burnt bodies, the mass graves etc etc... inventories of the shoes, eyeglasses, even hair and skin taken from the victims. The victims of these camps that survived still have the tattoos used to document and track them. Unlike the Turkish armenian slaughter the Germans were meticulous record keepers.
There are over 3800 videos at Yale alone of interviews with survivors... is that part of a jewish conspiracy?
Your idea that they couldn't have killed 6 million jews and millions of others because of a fuel shortage doesn't match the facts, it's an interesting idea if you could back it up with some of those hard facts. They shot them and left them in ditches, buried them, gassed them, incinerated them... the mobile killing units were stopped because it cost to much in ammunition and manpower to shoot all the people they wanted dead, along with the disposal problems. The camps were an answer to the logistical problem of how to house and dispose of massive numbers of people you wanted eliminated. Germans have always tended to be efficient, and they got very good at what they did.
You don't even need to leave your computer to answer your own question... all the evidence needed to prove to yourself it happened is a google search away. I'm curious what hard evidence your missing, along with what motivates the question... in Iran's case the motivation is pretty obvious.
[This message has been edited by Scott-Wa (edited 02-28-2006).]
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11:51 AM
Scott-Wa Member
Posts: 5392 From: Tacoma, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2002
Interesting article of the issues surrounding the holocaust, demonization of jews and Israel, anti-sematic issues, reparation payments etc.
One difference between reparartion payments for WWII victims and slavery victims... the WWII victims can through records tell you pretty much what was stolen, where it went.. there is a trail of goods and money. That doesn't apply well to descendants of slaves where you'd have to quantify what the loss was in financial terms for stolen freedom, and many generations later... who gets what and who pays? If you are the descendant of a slave owner who was sleeping with his slaves do you pay or recieve or both? Do we really want to start defining people like that, where the government decides what percentage slave you are? I understand the concept of us as a country paying for someones loss but who are we paying and why? I think the people interned by the US in detention camps deserve restitution for the loss of their homes and property. Again, this is something tangible... we as a nation took someone's property and can document the losses in financial terms. Businesses closed, homes lost, goods... much like an insurance case it is calculatable. If the people are still alive that it happened to they can be compensated (financially). If not where did their estate go...
One of those things... if you find out a painting worth millions in your family was stolen by your grandfather... is it yours or does it belong to the family from whom it was stolen? The only way I know it can be yours was if the stolen painting was bought from an airline lost goods warehouse who somehow got law made where they can sell stolen goods and the original owners lose all rights to those goods.
it is 10 pages of different numbers from different places
there are many ways to count some inc only those killed in a camp [ie gassed] others died of disease, were shot in the field, died in transit ect
BTW the camps and gettoes were run with inmate guards [mostly other race crimminals] called capo or even jewish commitie members and jewish police forces in the gettoes so a pure german guard count is meaningless and many extra nongerman guards were used and extra troops were brought in as needed or moved from one part of a camp to another
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
Two thoughts come to mind. Somewhere around 20 million Soviets died during WWII too and then we get all boggled by the fact that the U.S.S.R. wanted control over Eastern Europe after the war. Can't imagine why after Napoleon and WWI!! The other thing is "Never Again!" Genocide happens regulalrly in African civil wars as tribes try to wipe each other off of the face of the Earth. And, is that where Iraq is heading in the very near future?
[This message has been edited by carnut122 (edited 02-28-2006).]
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08:19 PM
Mar 1st, 2006
Scott-Wa Member
Posts: 5392 From: Tacoma, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2002
Two thoughts come to mind. Somewhere around 20 million Soviets died during WWII too and then we get all boggled by the fact that the U.S.S.R. wanted control over Eastern Europe after the war. Can't imagine why after Napoleon and WWI!! The other thing is "Never Again!" Genocide happens regulalrly in African civil wars as tribes try to wipe each other off of the face of the Earth. And, is that where Iraq is heading in the very near future?
Rowanda, Bosnia, Bangladesh, Cambodia, Sri Lanka... it continues to this day at various levels and most of us just sit ignorant to it even happening. It's usually been referred to as "unrest", or some other name that doesn't convey the attempt to wipe a people out of existance. The jews as a people are smart enough, literate enough, and have enough resources to continue to make a stink about the attempts against them as a group. Those who demonize jews as a group for whatever dark reasons attempt to deny that or twist it into whining.... "It didn't happen", "It wasn't THAT bad", "It was a long time ago.. get over it".
While the #1 priority is to ensure it doesn't happen to them as a people again, (and it's happened over and over and over), many jews join others battles against discrimination and such attempts. They feel they must try to keep the climate from swinging that way yet again. Usually end up getting persecuted, blamed, and attacked by those they attempt to help.
In the US we find it acceptable that 100K+ Iraqi civilians are estimated to have died since we invaded since we are in the right and got rid of a ruthless dictator... Shiites, Sunnis, Kurds and the rest are still trying to wipe each other out and since we got rid of the guy who was holding all the factions in check, the slaughter has gone wholesale. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Genocides Sad that this link has 41 pages of info on the subject.
If anyone is interested in a viewpoint that is mostly incomprehensible to the average US citizen, watch "Hero". A beautiful Chinese martial arts film where the hero is an assassin who goes to kill a leader like Saddam Hussien who wiped out his people. I won't say more and ruin it for anyone that hasn't seen it. The film is worth watching... incredible photography, great fight scenes, love stories, honor and a grand vision of the world.
[This message has been edited by Scott-Wa (edited 03-01-2006).]
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01:21 AM
lurker Member
Posts: 12355 From: salisbury nc usa Registered: Feb 2002
I dont buy it one bit. Though I am not doubting a good number of them died in the camps it was no where near 6 million. Some of those camps had as little as 20 nazi gaurds. Thousands of jewish civilians could have overthrown guards no problem. The number grows every year and so does the cash flow. A jewish man from a research center was talking about how he wanted to use the money for the families who died in the holocaust to ease there pain in anyway possible. Oh really? i guess cash should be given out to thousands of black slaves and every other culture who has been through these types of things.
You're an ignorant ******* . I can see it now, a thousand emaciated jews, who can barely stand, rushing the machine gun nests...only to be stopped by dogs, barbed wire, and the entire German Army outside. Yeah, that makes sense. Go back and try your math again. MORON!
You're an ignorant ******* . I can see it now, a thousand emaciated jews, who can barely stand, rushing the machine gun nests...only to be stopped by dogs, barbed wire, and the entire German Army outside. Yeah, that makes sense. Go back and try your math again. MORON!
Really? were you there did you see these things or did you base your opinions on the jewish produced schindlers list? MANY ppl escaped some hid in knee deep piss and **** others hit in attics and in walls. Funny how when anyone even questions the fact that maybe it wasent 6 million that died all hell breaks loose. When I mention armenians being slaughterd nobody seems to comment. The great world of zions.
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05:34 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 38048 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
For me, it matters not if it was 6 or 6,000,000. Anytime someone sets out to exterminate an entire race, weather it is found out in the beginning or in the end, it not only speaks volumes about the perpitrators, but also about those who would turn a blind eye, in the belief that it has little effect on their lives and/or does not concern them.
The camps were left standing, that we may never forget.
But the very thing we should never let happen again, is still happening around the world. And we, as a country, won't even impose sanctions on countries that are known to dabble in genocide, for fear of dissrupting trade!
Money talks, troublemakers walk. How sad.
Oh, we haven't forgot the horrors of the past. There's just no money in preventing it!
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06:09 PM
Mar 2nd, 2006
Scott-Wa Member
Posts: 5392 From: Tacoma, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2002
Really? were you there did you see these things or did you base your opinions on the jewish produced schindlers list? MANY ppl escaped some hid in knee deep piss and **** others hit in attics and in walls. Funny how when anyone even questions the fact that maybe it wasent 6 million that died all hell breaks loose. When I mention armenians being slaughterd nobody seems to comment. The great world of zions.
Zions... gee and I thought they were jews of a multitude of nationalities... jewish produced Shindler's List... well that debunks it right there doesn't it, just like "The Passion of the Christ" can be ignored since it was produced by a christian. We tried to allow another explanation besides you being a racistat but you apparently aren't going to take the out.
I think we did comment about armenians... several of us, along with other genocides. You didn't ask for replies abour armenian massacres though and I didn't see anyone question the number of their dead did you? What was your point in making the original post? That it's a conspiracy of jews making things up about the holocaust to try and make you feel uncomfortable about being a racist? What is it your really wanting to discuss? Too many jews in to many high places? I can link you to David Duke's website for the standard list used... even though it's stupid and just plain inaccurate.
On the Armenian issue... unlike in Austria and Germany, the Turkish government issued revisionist laws making it a crime to insult a Turk by talking about it. Here is a big snip from Wikipedia
"Turkey
On May 24, 1915, the Allied Powers, Britain, France, and Russia, jointly issued a statement explicitly charging for the first time ever another government of committing "a crime against humanity". This joint statement stated:
"[i]n view of these new crimes of Turkey against humanity and civilization, the Allied Governments announce publicly to the Sublime Porte that they will hold personally responsible for these crimes all members of the Ottoman Government, as well as those of their agents who are implicated in such massacres"[7].
On 15 September 2005 an United States Congressional resolution on the Armenian Genocide "Calling upon the President to ensure that the foreign policy of the United States reflects appropriate understanding and sensitivity concerning issues related to human rights, ethnic cleansing, and genocide documented in the United States record relating to the Armenian Genocide, and for other purposes." found that:
* "The Armenian Genocide was conceived and carried out by the Ottoman Empire from 1915 to 1923, resulting in the deportation of nearly 2,000,000 Armenians, of whom 1,500,000 men, women, and children were killed, 500,000 survivors were expelled from their homes, and which succeeded in the elimination of the over 2,500-year presence of Armenians in their historic homeland." * "The post-World War I Turkish Government indicted the top leaders involved" and that "officials of the Young Turk Regime were tried and convicted, as charged, for organizing and executing massacres against the Armenian people". The chief organizers were "Minister of War Enver, Minister of the Interior Talaat, and Minister of the Navy Jemal were all condemned to death for their crimes, however, the verdicts of the courts were not enforced." * and "The Armenian Genocide and these domestic judicial failures are documented with overwhelming evidence in the national archives of Austria, France, Germany, Great Britain, Russia, the United States, the Vatican and many other countries, and this vast body of evidence attests to the same facts, the same events, and the same consequences."[6]
The Turkish Government disputes this interpretation of events and in an attempt at political historical revisionism has drafted laws like Article 301 that state "A person who explicitly insults being a Turk, the Republic or Turkish Grand National Assembly, shall be imposed to a penalty of imprisonment". This law has been used to bring charges against Orhan Pamuk for stating that "Thirty thousand Kurds and a million Armenians were killed in these lands and nobody but me dares to talk about it"[8]."
I'll stay civil, but if there is a jewish conspiracy, send me some of the money I'm supposed to be controlling since my mother is jewish. Half the richs will do since my father is presbeterian. Now where did I put my bag of gold...
[This message has been edited by Scott-Wa (edited 03-02-2006).]
