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pollution in china. by pontiackid86
Started on: 10-28-2010 03:19 PM
Replies: 32
Last post by: Grandaddy84SE on 11-21-2010 10:16 AM
pontiackid86
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Report this Post10-28-2010 03:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pontiackid86Send a Private Message to pontiackid86Direct Link to This Post
This is really sad. And its even more sad that there goverment cant see what its doing to the people na dpossabley the planet.

(disturbing pics if you have a weak stomach dont click on the link)

http://www.chinahush.com/20...-pollution-in-china/
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Report this Post10-28-2010 03:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderDirect Link to This Post
It isn't that the government doesn't see it.... it doesn't care.
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Pyrthian
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Report this Post10-28-2010 03:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
well, it is what many want the USA to return to doing as well.....
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Report this Post10-28-2010 03:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for User00013170Send a Private Message to User00013170Direct Link to This Post
You see no pollution here, please come with us dear dissident, long car ride we have for you.
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pontiackid86
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Report this Post10-28-2010 03:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pontiackid86Send a Private Message to pontiackid86Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:

well, it is what many want the USA to return to doing as well.....



Hopefuly that never happens.

What a lot of that looks like is greed and cutting corners just to get things done the easy way. But the easy way is not always the best.
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Report this Post10-28-2010 03:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for User00013170Send a Private Message to User00013170Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by pontiackid86:
Hopefuly that never happens.

What a lot of that looks like is greed and cutting corners just to get things done the easy way. But the easy way is not always the best.


Its how we used to be.
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twofatguys
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Report this Post10-28-2010 03:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for twofatguysSend a Private Message to twofatguysDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:

well, it is what many want the USA to return to doing as well.....


 
quote
Originally posted by pontiackid86:
Hopefuly that never happens.


Apparently you guys do not get out much. Please travel across the country from New York/ New Jersey to California, with stops in Detroit, and several other places. Do no fly, drive from area to area. I think you will be surprised.
HERE is a list of places to visit on your way, don't go too slow, there are 1200 in that list alone.

Brad


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Pyrthian
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Report this Post10-28-2010 04:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by twofatguys:
Apparently you guys do not get out much. Please travel across the country from New York/ New Jersey to California, with stops in Detroit, and several other places. Do no fly, drive from area to area. I think you will be surprised.
HERE is a list of places to visit on your way, don't go too slow, there are 1200 in that list alone.

Brad


oh yes. I've been in the Detroit area my whole life.
I remember the 70's. The Detroit River. OMG - it was a sewer. It is 400% better now. The Rouge River. another one which was basicly turned to a slurry by Ford, back in the 60's & 70's. You can actually fish in it again. Gone thru Pittsburg several times as well, on my way to DC.

the refinery - still nasty. when going down I-75, the bridge near the refinery is "the Stink Bridge".


edit: that link - not a single thing in there is in Detroit. 2 are near. and I've actually done work on one of them.
most are on the west side of the state.

[This message has been edited by Pyrthian (edited 10-28-2010).]

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newf
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Report this Post10-28-2010 04:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for newfSend a Private Message to newfDirect Link to This Post
Good God... next the leftist communist socialist Government over there will be listening to the Greenies and try to mandate some kind of pollution control.
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Report this Post10-28-2010 04:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by newf:

Good God... next the leftist communist socialist Government over there will be listening to the Greenies and try to mandate some kind of pollution control.


Pollution control is good for everyone. Cap and Tax.... bad for everyone.
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newf
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Report this Post10-28-2010 04:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for newfSend a Private Message to newfDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jaskispyder:


Pollution control is good for everyone. Cap and Tax.... bad for everyone.


Yeah I really have to look at that whole cap and trade thing. I can't make judgements on it until I do. But yes pollution control is good.
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Report this Post10-28-2010 04:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderDirect Link to This Post
cap and tax is not about pollution.
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84fiero123
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Report this Post10-28-2010 04:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Direct Link to This Post
Personally I could care less about China killing off their people with their own pollution. I hope they do. They are digging their own graves and they disserve what they get.

They already know what they are doing is wrong, and so does the rest of the world. But corporations don’t care as long as they make their big bucks.

We can’t save the world.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

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Report this Post10-28-2010 04:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Doni HaganSend a Private Message to Doni HaganDirect Link to This Post
I was in Bejing for 3 days during the Olympics for a gig and have NEVER seen pollution that bad. People were walking round with dust masks like it was an everyday thing. After the 1st day of walking around, I blew my nose and dark grey stuff came out....

I know.....gross.

After that day, I never left the hotel without a wet face towel in a plastic bag.

[This message has been edited by Doni Hagan (edited 10-28-2010).]

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Report this Post10-28-2010 05:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for User00013170Send a Private Message to User00013170Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by twofatguys:



Apparently you guys do not get out much. Please travel across the country from New York/ New Jersey to California, with stops in Detroit, and several other places. Do no fly, drive from area to area. I think you will be surprised.
HERE is a list of places to visit on your way, don't go too slow, there are 1200 in that list alone.

Brad



Gary Indiana is always fun to visit.. if you are on the skyway looking down that is.
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Report this Post11-19-2010 11:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for newfSend a Private Message to newfDirect Link to This Post
BEIJING—Pollution in Beijing was so bad Friday the U.S. Embassy, which has been independently monitoring air quality, ran out of conventional adjectives to describe it, at one point saying it was "crazy bad."


http://www.boston.com/news/...uality_is_crazy_bad/
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Report this Post11-20-2010 02:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
No problem. When it gets bad enough, they will just take a break from it in their vacation country--the US.
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Report this Post11-20-2010 09:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for css9450Send a Private Message to css9450Direct Link to This Post
Nice to see that could lure Diane Sawyer over there for some "damage control" this past week. I didn't see the broadcast every night but the one where they talked about China's "green" industry made it appear the whole place smelled like roses.
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Report this Post11-20-2010 09:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lurkerSend a Private Message to lurkerDirect Link to This Post
it's my fault.

back in the late 70s several of my trilateralist illuminati friends stopped by my duplex and asked me what to do about this new world order thing. they said, "if you guys are going to be the world's police men, what are we going to do with all this heavy industry? you can't do both, and we can't take it in switzerland, it's too stinky and spoils our view of the alps". so i said "let china have the heavy industry and pollution", not thinking about the wealth distribution problem that would result from sending all the heavy industry overseas.

this is what happens when you focus on one aspect of the problem and don't look at the big picture.
sorry 'bout that, china.
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Report this Post11-20-2010 10:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for partfieroSend a Private Message to partfieroDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by newf:

BEIJING—Pollution in Beijing was so bad Friday the U.S. Embassy, which has been independently monitoring air quality, ran out of conventional adjectives to describe it, at one point saying it was "crazy bad."


http://www.boston.com/news/...uality_is_crazy_bad/


Kudos to Beijing: Gasoline & Diesel Prices Increased

Correction: Has hell frozen over? CELB has made an error. We have just emerged from a strenuous self-criticism session, and have agreed to forgo this afternoon’s fourth Diet Coke. In addition, we have been forced to correct our boo boo below. We are not entirely to blame. The Economic Observer Online (EOO) made a typographical error when it reported the new price of Grade 93 gasoline in Beijing after the recent price hikes. EOO reported 3.67 yuan/liter; the correct price (as we noted on our recent trip to Beijing) is 6.37 yuan/liter. Yes, the 3.67 price was significantly lower than the price for higher gas grades and diesel, but we assumed that was the result of heavy government subsidization. Of course we all know the wages of assumption. In any event, I’ve corrected the post below using exchange rates, etc. as of today: October 22, 2008.

Corrected Post:

The Beijing Development and Reform Commission (the local NDRC) is hiking gasoline prices. The Economic Observer Online reports that yesterday “the retail benchmark prices for gasoline and diesel” was “upped 200 and 290 yuan per ton respectively.” The increase was “meant to compensate the increased cost in processing cleaner fuels conforming to Euro IV standard, which leads to lower pollutant emission and more environmental friendly.”

The report notes that the government raised gasoline prices nationwide by 1,000 yuan/ton in June (discussed here) in a move to alleviate pressure on local refineries caused by “rising global crude oil prices.” With global oil prices now falling, one motivating force behind this move must be to increase the cost of driving a car in Beijing.

What does this move mean at the pump?

The two large state-owned oil companies, Sinopec and PetroChina, are permitted to raise the retail price of gasoline by about 0.17 yuan/liter and diesel by 0.27 yuan/liter (Do both of these companies have retail outlets in Beijing? I thought they had, at least roughly, divided the country between them). Thus

* Grade 93 gasoline1: 6.37 yuan/liter
* Grade 97 gasoline: 6.78 yuan/liter
* Grade Zero diesel: 6.50 yuan/liter

For those of you more comfortable with, Euros, pounds, or dollars (and gallons rather than liters) I’ve provided a handy conversion guide. Beijing pump prices for Grade 93 in:

* Euros (€): .57/liter
* Pounds (£): .73/liter
* US Dollars ($)2: 3.53/gallon

Remember, of course, that gasoline prices in the US and Europe include a fairly significant tax component which is not added to the retail price in China.

For instance, the average US price for regular unleaded gasoline for the week ending October 20, 2008 was $ 2.91/gallon last week. Gasoline is taxed at both the state and federal level in the US, but the average tax burden is 47 cents per gallon. Thus, an apple to apples comparison would put US prices at $2.44/gallon vs. $3.53/gallon in China.
http://www.chinaenvironment...el-prices-increased/

China’s Blacklisted Cities

Think it’s bad where you are? It could be worse. The following Chinese cities have been singled out for disapprobation by the Ministry of Environmental Protection (MEP) regarding their environmental records:

Bad Air:

* Bayannur and Ulanqab, Inner Mongolia
* Baiyin, Gansu
* Urumqi, Xinjiang
* Huanggang, Hubei

Bad Water:

* Hengshui and Cangzhou, Hebei
* Linfen, Shanxi
* Fuyang, Anhui
* Tongchuan, Shaanxi
* Wuwei, Gansu

If you’d like to know where these cities are, click the map markers below:
View Larger Map.

Curiously, however, the cities with the worst “public satisfaction” rates in terms of local environmental protection efforts are not on the lists. They are:

* Datong, Shanxi
* Hezhou, Guangxi

Are there any bright spots? Actually based on the survey results that accompanied the name and shame announcement things are generally getting better in terms of wastewater treatment and solid and hazardous waste disposal. But MEP called on cities to “further improve their sewage-handling and recycling capabilities, and develop effective ways to treat sludge and hazardous liquids produced by sewage and garbage disposal plants.”

The cities with the highest “public satisfaction” rates (in excess of 90%) are

* Linyi, Dongying, Rizhao and Yantai, Shandong Province
* Daqing, and Heihe, Heilongjiang Province
http://www.chinaenvironment...-blacklisted-cities/

China’s Environmentally Satisfying Cities
My last post focused on those Chinese cities blacklisted for poor environmental performance, but it also mentioned several cities where 90%+ of the population was “satisfied” with the local environmental protection efforts. These cities belong on the gold star list.

They were concentrated in two provinces Shandong and Heilongjiang. We’ll look at the Shandong cities today: Dongying (东营), Linyi (临沂), Rizhao (日照), and Yantai (烟台). Here’s a map showing their locations:

View Larger Map

Dongying (东营)

It’s hard to find a lot of specifics on what Dongying has done to satisfy its citizens as to its environmental protection efforts. It has clearly attempted to establish itself as an “ecological city,” but then so have many other cities in China, but perhaps not so early or so eloquently as Dongying

With people much more deeply understanding sustainable development, the problems about ecological environment are taken seriously by them. In the light of the fact that the ecological environment is flimsy and the soil resources are abundant, the city development goal of Dongying is put forward, which is to establish outstanding ecological city.

Dongying efforts to make itself more environmentally friendly began at least 4 years ago. A 2004 article noted that Dongying “is shifting from chasing mere growth to balancing eco-environmental construction with economic development.” The then mayor (not sure if he’s still there) said: “Our goal is to turn Dongying into a modern economic centre of the Yellow River Delta area, as well as a pivotal ecological urban centre of the Pacific Rim by 2020.”

Dongying’s rating is especially surprising because it sits atop the country’s second largest oilfield, Shengli Oilfield.

Though dubbed one of the country’s major petroleum-related industrial cities, Dongying has received honourable environmental protection and city construction titles in recent years. The awards have covered areas such as water and soil safeguarding.

Despite its oil resources, Dongying is the site of a new 48 megawatt windfarm.

The 2004 mayor explained that the local government “will brand ecological culture into people’s minds.” If nothing else, it appears its mind branding efforts have been successful.

Linyi (临沂)

Its even harder to find specifics on what makes Linyi so green, but fortunately we have Shanghai Scrap’s Adam Mintner who has toured and reported on Linyi China Electronic Recycling Center (go read the whole post and see the pictures). As Adam noted in a comment on my previous post:

Linyi’s been a laboratory for the development of recycling and solid waste methods for several years now. In a decade, when people think of “e-scrap” and “China,” they won’t be thinking of the environmental catastrophe in Guiyu, they’ll be thinking about the innovations and partnerships in Linyi.

Good luck Linyi.

Rizhao (日照)

There is no shortage of information on Rizhao’s environmental credentials. As you would expect from a city named sunshine:

The city of Rizhao combines incentives and legislative tools to encourage the large-scale, efficient use of renewable energy, especially solar energy. 99% of Rizhao’s households use solar water heaters. In the suburbs and villages, more than 30 percent of households use solar water heaters, and over 6,000 households have solar cooking facilities. Almost all traffic lights, street lights and park illuminations are powered by photovoltaic solar cells.

Widespread use of solar energy has reduced the use of coal and helped to improve the environmental quality of Rizhao. The vision was to enhance environment thus helping the city’s social, economic, and cultural development in the long run. Solar energy is seen as a starting point to trigger this positive cycle. And after 15 years of promoting solar energy this has proven effective. In 2007 the city is attracting a rapidly increasing amount of foreign direct investment. According to city officials, environment is one of the key factors bringing these investors to Rizhao.

Rizhao’s own promotional materials boast that in 2005 “Rizhao was awarded the title of ‘National Model City of Environmental Protection.’”

Yantai (烟台)

Yantai doesn’t appear to have a single strong suit like Rizhao’s solar energy; it just appears to be an all-around good place to live. Here’s the German Chamber of Commerce on Yantai:

Yantai has a temperate climate with an average annual temperature of 11.8°C and humidity of 68% in YHDZ . It is nestled between the mountains and the sea with a coastline of 21.5 km. Forty-one percent of the district is covered in trees, plants and flowers. It has excellent air quality, is cool in summer and warm in winter. In this zone, there is an excellent living environment with well equipped cultural, sports and entertainment facilities. In 2005 Yantai was granted the “UN Habitat Scroll of Honor Award”. If Yantai is such a city of this award, then YHDZ is the most representative. Yantai has been granted the following awards:

* The U.N. Best Living Environment Award (in 2005)
* National Excellent Tourism City
* National Garden City
* National Hygienic City
* International Vine and Wine City
* National Model City for Environmental Protection
* National Top 50 Cities in Terms of General Strength
* National Top 40 Cities in Terms of Investment Environment
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newf
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Report this Post11-20-2010 10:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for newfSend a Private Message to newfDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by partfiero:


Kudos to Beijing: Gasoline & Diesel Prices Increased...
* National Top 40 Cities in Terms of Investment Environment


What's the point here?
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Report this Post11-20-2010 11:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for partfieroSend a Private Message to partfieroDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by newf:


What's the point here?


There are always two sides to a coin if you dare turn it over!
Did you read the whole thing, or just the one line you posted?
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yellowstone
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Report this Post11-20-2010 12:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for yellowstoneSend a Private Message to yellowstoneDirect Link to This Post
Sure it is. Behind it is the thinking that if you put a price on something (as opposed to the "tragedy of the commons", look it up) there will be less of it. It's an alternative to prohibit and police and an attempt to put market forces to work. It's much more in tune with capitalism than making laws that prohibit things.

 
quote
Originally posted by jaskispyder:

cap and tax is not about pollution.


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Report this Post11-20-2010 12:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tbone42Send a Private Message to tbone42Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by yellowstone:

Sure it is. Behind it is the thinking that if you put a price on something (as opposed to the "tragedy of the commons", look it up) there will be less of it. It's an alternative to prohibit and police and an attempt to put market forces to work. It's much more in tune with capitalism than making laws that prohibit things.



Wow Yellowstone, thats thebest way I have ever heard it explained. So it can be good for business.. whats the downside? No one can 'pollute all they want' without paying a hefty fee?
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Report this Post11-20-2010 01:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for newfSend a Private Message to newfDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by partfiero:


There are always two sides to a coin if you dare turn it over!
Did you read the whole thing, or just the one line you posted?


I agree that there are two sides but to deny one is silly.

I sincerely hope China gets a handle on the terrible smog and pollution problems in their bigger centers.
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NickD3.4
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Report this Post11-20-2010 01:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NickD3.4Send a Private Message to NickD3.4Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:

well, it is what many want the USA to return to doing as well.....


No, we want to go back to being industry like we ere. You can be an industrial power and be environmentally responsible as well. China simply chooses not too. No one is saying we should trash everything.
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Report this Post11-20-2010 05:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for newfSend a Private Message to newfDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by NickD3.4:


No, we want to go back to being industry like we ere. You can be an industrial power and be environmentally responsible as well. China simply chooses not too. No one is saying we should trash everything.


It would be nice, unfortunately companies know where the cheap labour and lax regulations are and aren't likely to change their ways.
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Report this Post11-20-2010 09:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for normsfClick Here to visit normsf's HomePageSend a Private Message to normsfDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Doni Hagan:

I was in Bejing for 3 days during the Olympics for a gig and have NEVER seen pollution that bad. People were walking round with dust masks like it was an everyday thing. After the 1st day of walking around, I blew my nose and dark grey stuff came out....

I know.....gross.

After that day, I never left the hotel without a wet face towel in a plastic bag.



Hello all that and yet the Chinese stopped factories and traffic in the area for 3-4 weeks before the games in an effort to clean up the air so as to make it look like to westerners as yourself that it wasnt to bad, Fail. Detroit is cleaner today partly to cleaner EPA standards, but mostly because of the lack of heavy industry which has moved to China.

[This message has been edited by normsf (edited 11-20-2010).]

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Report this Post11-21-2010 12:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for tbone42Send a Private Message to tbone42Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by User00013170:


Gary Indiana is always fun to visit.. if you are on the skyway looking down that is.


I grew up 12 miles away from there. I could tell you some stories.
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Report this Post11-21-2010 01:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Marvin McInnisClick Here to visit Marvin McInnis's HomePageSend a Private Message to Marvin McInnisDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by yellowstone:

Behind [Cap and Trade] is the thinking that if you put a price on something (as opposed to the "tragedy of the commons", look it up) there will be less of it. It's ... an attempt to put market forces to work. It's much more in tune with capitalism than making laws that prohibit things.



Well said! The "Tragedy of the Commons" reference is especially appropriate.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 11-21-2010).]

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Report this Post11-21-2010 04:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tbone42:


Wow Yellowstone, thats thebest way I have ever heard it explained. So it can be good for business.. whats the downside? No one can 'pollute all they want' without paying a hefty fee?


Exactly. It's kinda like justice--you can have all one can afford.
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tutnkmn
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Report this Post11-21-2010 07:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for tutnkmnSend a Private Message to tutnkmnDirect Link to This Post
America being "clean" and not polluting is solving what when other countries are doing this level of polluting? We have "climate change" propoganda shoved up our ar$es in the west. Does anyone think the wind does not blow across the face of the entire planet?

America and Europe have simply shifted their industrial activity to Asia. Not intentionally of course. Companies are just chasing cheap labour and governments with lax environmental laws.

Wake the #$%^ up Al Gore!

I feel shame when forced to buy Chinese made products knowing that they (and by extention myself) are contributing to this level of pollution and suffering. Nothing can be done about it though as long as we all want our CHEAP products and are not willing to pay more for things made in the States which are subject to laws created to protect the environment and prevent things like the Cuyahoga river from catching fire again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuyahoga_River

Where is that guy (on here) who thought Communist China was so great????

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Edit to add: China had the nerve to sign the Kyoto Accords! Right!

[This message has been edited by tutnkmn (edited 11-21-2010).]

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Report this Post11-21-2010 10:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Grandaddy84SESend a Private Message to Grandaddy84SEDirect Link to This Post
You flocked to Walmart to by the cheap goods produced in China, this ruined the American economy and now that's all you can afford. Buy Union made, Buy American made, impose and enforce strict standards and tariffs on imports, if you can't import it cheaply someone in America will make it and turn a profit, will pay taxes and start pulling your country out of the hole you dug for it. And make no mistake, it is everyones fault, including you. If the Chinese refuse to meet you standards for production and quality, keep their products out, the success of China's economy is based on flooding the American market with cheap products, based on the model of Japan in the 70's. It can be stopped but it mean a temporary drop in your precieved standard of living until American made products are available.
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