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Obama Helping The Powerless To Overthrow The Powerful by Boondawg
Started on: 06-12-2011 09:48 AM
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Last post by: Doug85GT on 06-13-2011 09:10 PM
Boondawg
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Report this Post06-12-2011 09:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BoondawgSend a Private Message to BoondawgDirect Link to This Post
Let the spin begin.

*****************************
The Obama administration is leading a global effort to deploy “shadow” Internet and mobile phone systems that dissidents can use to undermine repressive governments that seek to silence them by censoring or shutting down telecommunications networks.

The effort includes secretive projects to create independent cellphone networks inside foreign countries, as well as one operation out of a spy novel in a fifth-floor shop on L Street in Washington, where a group of young entrepreneurs who look as if they could be in a garage band are fitting deceptively innocent-looking hardware into a prototype “Internet in a suitcase.”

Financed with a $2 million State Department grant, the suitcase could be secreted across a border and quickly set up to allow wireless communication over a wide area with a link to the global Internet.

The American effort, revealed in dozens of interviews, planning documents and classified diplomatic cables obtained by The New York Times, ranges in scale, cost and sophistication.

Some projects involve technology that the United States is developing; others pull together tools that have already been created by hackers in a so-called liberation-technology movement sweeping the globe.

The State Department, for example, is financing the creation of stealth wireless networks that would enable activists to communicate outside the reach of governments in countries like Iran, Syria and Libya, according to participants in the projects.

In one of the most ambitious efforts, United States officials say, the State Department and Pentagon have spent at least $50 million to create an independent cellphone network in Afghanistan using towers on protected military bases inside the country. It is intended to offset the Taliban’s ability to shut down the official Afghan services, seemingly at will.

The effort has picked up momentum since the government of President Hosni Mubarak shut down the Egyptian Internet in the last days of his rule. In recent days, the Syrian government also temporarily disabled much of that country’s Internet, which had helped protesters mobilize.

The Obama administration’s initiative is in one sense a new front in a longstanding diplomatic push to defend free speech and nurture democracy. For decades, the United States has sent radio broadcasts into autocratic countries through Voice of America and other means. More recently, Washington has supported the development of software that preserves the anonymity of users in places like China, and training for citizens who want to pass information along the government-owned Internet without getting caught.

But the latest initiative depends on creating entirely separate pathways for communication. It has brought together an improbable alliance of diplomats and military engineers, young programmers and dissidents from at least a dozen countries, many of whom variously describe the new approach as more audacious and clever and, yes, cooler.

Sometimes the State Department is simply taking advantage of enterprising dissidents who have found ways to get around government censorship. American diplomats are meeting with operatives who have been burying Chinese cellphones in the hills near the border with North Korea, where they can be dug up and used to make furtive calls, according to interviews and the diplomatic cables.

The new initiatives have found a champion in Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, whose department is spearheading the American effort. “We see more and more people around the globe using the Internet, mobile phones and other technologies to make their voices heard as they protest against injustice and seek to realize their aspirations,” Mrs. Clinton said in an e-mail response to a query on the topic. “There is a historic opportunity to effect positive change, change America supports,” she said. “So we’re focused on helping them do that, on helping them talk to each other, to their communities, to their governments and to the world.”

Developers caution that independent networks come with downsides: repressive governments could use surveillance to pinpoint and arrest activists who use the technology or simply catch them bringing hardware across the border. But others believe that the risks are outweighed by the potential impact. “We’re going to build a separate infrastructure where the technology is nearly impossible to shut down, to control, to surveil,” said Sascha Meinrath, who is leading the “Internet in a suitcase” project as director of the Open Technology Initiative at the New America Foundation, a nonpartisan research group.

“The implication is that this disempowers central authorities from infringing on people’s fundamental human right to communicate,” Mr. Meinrath added.

In an anonymous office building on L Street in Washington, four unlikely State Department contractors sat around a table. Josh King, sporting multiple ear piercings and a studded leather wristband, taught himself programming while working as a barista. Thomas Gideon was an accomplished hacker. Dan Meredith, a bicycle polo enthusiast, helped companies protect their digital secrets.

Then there was Mr. Meinrath, wearing a tie as the dean of the group at age 37. He has a master’s degree in psychology and helped set up wireless networks in underserved communities in Detroit and Philadelphia.

The group’s suitcase project will rely on a version of “mesh network” technology, which can transform devices like cellphones or personal computers to create an invisible wireless web without a centralized hub. In other words, a voice, picture or e-mail message could hop directly between the modified wireless devices — each one acting as a mini cell “tower” and phone — and bypass the official network.

Mr. Meinrath said that the suitcase would include small wireless antennas, which could increase the area of coverage; a laptop to administer the system; thumb drives and CDs to spread the software to more devices and encrypt the communications; and other components like Ethernet cables.

The project will also rely on the innovations of independent Internet and telecommunications developers.

The cool thing in this political context is that you cannot easily control it,” said Aaron Kaplan, an Austrian cybersecurity expert whose work will be used in the suitcase project. Mr. Kaplan has set up a functioning mesh network in Vienna and says related systems have operated in Venezuela, Indonesia and elsewhere.

Mr. Meinrath said his team was focused on fitting the system into the bland-looking suitcase and making it simple to implement — by, say, using “pictograms” in the how-to manual.

In addition to the Obama administration’s initiatives, there are almost a dozen independent ventures that also aim to make it possible for unskilled users to employ existing devices like laptops or smartphones to build a wireless network. One mesh network was created around Jalalabad, Afghanistan, as early as five years ago, using technology developed at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

Creating simple lines of communication outside official ones is crucial, said Collin Anderson, a 26-year-old liberation-technology researcher from North Dakota who specializes in Iran, where the government all but shut down the Internet during protests in 2009. The slowdown made most “circumvention” technologies — the software legerdemain that helps dissidents sneak data along the state-controlled networks — nearly useless, he said.

“No matter how much circumvention the protesters use, if the government slows the network down to a crawl, you can’t upload YouTube videos or Facebook postings,” Mr. Anderson said. “They need alternative ways of sharing information or alternative ways of getting it out of the country.”

That need is so urgent, citizens are finding their own ways to set up rudimentary networks. Mehdi Yahyanejad, an Iranian expatriate and technology developer who co-founded a popular Persian-language Web site, estimates that nearly half the people who visit the site from inside Iran share files using Bluetooth — which is best known in the West for running wireless headsets and the like. In more closed societies, however, Bluetooth is used to discreetly beam information — a video, an electronic business card — directly from one cellphone to another.

Mr. Yahyanejad said he and his research colleagues were also slated to receive State Department financing for a project that would modify Bluetooth so that a file containing, say, a video of a protester being beaten, could automatically jump from phone to phone within a “trusted network” of citizens. The system would be more limited than the suitcase but would only require the software modification on ordinary phones.

By the end of 2011, the State Department will have spent some $70 million on circumvention efforts and related technologies, according to department figures.

Mrs. Clinton has made Internet freedom into a signature cause. But the State Department has carefully framed its support as promoting free speech and human rights for their own sake, not as a policy aimed at destabilizing autocratic governments.

That distinction is difficult to maintain, said Clay Shirky, an assistant professor at New York University who studies the Internet and social media. “You can’t say, ‘All we want is for people to speak their minds, not bring down autocratic regimes’ — they’re the same thing,” Mr. Shirky said.

He added that the United States could expose itself to charges of hypocrisy if the State Department maintained its support, tacit or otherwise, for autocratic governments running countries like Saudi Arabia or Bahrain while deploying technology that was likely to undermine them.

In February 2009, Richard C. Holbrooke and Lt. Gen. John R. Allen were taking a helicopter tour over southern Afghanistan and getting a panoramic view of the cellphone towers dotting the remote countryside, according to two officials on the flight. By then, millions of Afghans were using cellphones, compared with a few thousand after the 2001 invasion. Towers built by private companies had sprung up across the country. The United States had promoted the network as a way to cultivate good will and encourage local businesses in a country that in other ways looked as if it had not changed much in centuries.

There was just one problem, General Allen told Mr. Holbrooke, who only weeks before had been appointed special envoy to the region. With a combination of threats to phone company officials and attacks on the towers, the Taliban was able to shut down the main network in the countryside virtually at will. Local residents report that the networks are often out from 6 p.m. until 6 a.m., presumably to enable the Taliban to carry out operations without being reported to security forces.

The Pentagon and State Department were soon collaborating on the project to build a “shadow” cellphone system in a country where repressive forces exert control over the official network.

Details of the network, which the military named the Palisades project, are scarce, but current and former military and civilian officials said it relied in part on cell towers placed on protected American bases. A large tower on the Kandahar air base serves as a base station or data collection point for the network, officials said.

A senior United States official said the towers were close to being up and running in the south and described the effort as a kind of 911 system that would be available to anyone with a cellphone.

By shutting down cellphone service, the Taliban had found a potent strategic tool in its asymmetric battle with American and Afghan security forces.

The United States is widely understood to use cellphone networks in Afghanistan, Iraq and other countries for intelligence gathering. And the ability to silence the network was also a powerful reminder to the local populace that the Taliban retained control over some of the most vital organs of the nation.

When asked about the system, Lt. Col. John Dorrian, a spokesman for the American-led International Security Assistance Force, or ISAF, would only confirm the existence of a project to create what he called an “expeditionary cellular communication service” in Afghanistan. He said the project was being carried out in collaboration with the Afghan government in order to “restore 24/7 cellular access.”

“As of yet the program is not fully operational, so it would be premature to go into details,” Colonel Dorrian said.

Colonel Dorrian declined to release cost figures. Estimates by United States military and civilian officials ranged widely, from $50 million to $250 million. A senior official said that Afghan officials, who anticipate taking over American bases when troops pull out, have insisted on an elaborate system. “The Afghans wanted the Cadillac plan, which is pretty expensive,” the official said.

Broad subversive effort
In May 2009, a North Korean defector named Kim met with officials at the American Consulate in Shenyang, a Chinese city about 120 miles from North Korea, according to a diplomatic cable. Officials wanted to know how Mr. Kim, who was active in smuggling others out of the country, communicated across the border. “Kim would not go into much detail,” the cable says, but did mention the burying of Chinese cellphones “on hillsides for people to dig up at night.” Mr. Kim said Dandong, China, and the surrounding Jilin Province “were natural gathering points for cross-border cellphone communication and for meeting sources.” The cellphones are able to pick up signals from towers in China, said Libby Liu, head of Radio Free Asia, the United States-financed broadcaster, who confirmed their existence and said her organization uses the calls to collect information for broadcasts as well.

The effort, in what is perhaps the world’s most closed nation, suggests just how many independent actors are involved in the subversive efforts. From the activist geeks on L Street in Washington to the military engineers in Afghanistan, the global appeal of the technology hints at the craving for open communication.

In a chat with a Times reporter via Facebook, Malik Ibrahim Sahad, the son of Libyan dissidents who largely grew up in suburban Virginia, said he was tapping into the Internet using a commercial satellite connection in Benghazi. “Internet is in dire need here. The people are cut off in that respect,” wrote Mr. Sahad, who had never been to Libya before the uprising and is now working in support of rebel authorities. Even so, he said, “I don’t think this revolution could have taken place without the existence of the World Wide Web.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id...-the_new_york_times/
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Report this Post06-12-2011 10:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsDirect Link to This Post
My only words of caution to Sec. of State Clinton is, be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

------------------
Ron

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Report this Post06-12-2011 10:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for User00013170Send a Private Message to User00013170Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:

My only words of caution to Sec. of State Clinton is, be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.



And if another country did that to us we would call foul and that they were violating our right of being sovereign.

But its ok if we do it?
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Report this Post06-12-2011 10:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BoondawgSend a Private Message to BoondawgDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by User00013170:


And if another country did that to us we would call foul and that they were violating our right of being sovereign.

But its ok if we do it?


Actually, we would try to get the discription 'terrorist network' to stick to them.
It frees up resources to persue them & squashes rights that might protect them.

"They are spreading Democracy and must be stopped!"

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 06-12-2011).]

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Report this Post06-12-2011 10:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for User00013170Send a Private Message to User00013170Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Boondawg:


Actually, we would try to get the discription 'terrorist network' to stick to them.
It frees up resources to persue them & squashes rights that might protect them.

"They are spreading Democracy and must be stopped!"



All joking aside, who gives us the right to impose democracy on an independent nation? Just because we feel its the right way of doing things doesn't mean they do. ( and vice versa if they want to impose their ways onto us )

if we use any 'scare tactics' ( even if they are psychological in nature ) in what we do to 'persuade' others, ya we are terrorists too. Technically.

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Report this Post06-12-2011 11:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for partfieroSend a Private Message to partfieroDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Boondawg:

"They are spreading Democracy and must be stopped!"



Sure this reporter would be calling this program "forcing our will on sovereign countries" if HIS man wasn't sitting in the big chair playing with the red phone.
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Report this Post06-12-2011 11:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
"Who gives us the right...?"

No one--they don't have to. It's the rock upon which the premise of our form of democracy and human rights beliefs are founded, and has been from the very beginning. I find it utterly amazing that so many people scream about their own rights, never understanding or declaring that those few words also apply--just as it is written below, to ALL men (and women), wherever in the world they may be. It doesn't say 'All American men--All white anglo men--All men of our religion--it says ALL men, and means exactly that. Who would we be, if we declared our rights to be so important and so precious when applied to ourselves, but ignored the rights and plights of those elsewhere around the world---talk about the pinnacle of hipocrasy--there, it would be.

 
quote
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 06-12-2011).]

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Report this Post06-12-2011 11:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BoondawgSend a Private Message to BoondawgDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:


"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."


No one--they don't have to. It's the rock upon which the premise of our form of democracy and human rights beliefs are founded, and has been from the very beginning. I find it utterly amazing that so many people scream about their own rights, never understanding or declaring that those few words also apply--just as it is written below, to ALL men (and women), wherever in the world they may be. It doesn't say 'All American men--All white anglo men--All men of our religion--it say ALL men, and means exactly that. Who would we be, if we declared our rights to be so important and so pecious for ourselves, and ignored the rights and plights of those around the world---talk about the pinnacle of hipocrasy--there, it would be.




But there are those here that have said that the protections provided by our Bill Of Rights should not apply to non-U.S. citizans.
But the words of our Declaration of Independence should?
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Report this Post06-12-2011 11:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for User00013170Send a Private Message to User00013170Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:

"Who gives us the right...?"

No one--they don't have to. It's the rock upon which the premise of our form of democracy and human rights beliefs are founded, and has been from the very beginning. I find it utterly amazing that so many people scream about their own rights, never understanding or declaring that those few words also apply--just as it is written below, to ALL men (and women), wherever in the world they may be. It doesn't say 'All American men--All white anglo men--All men of our religion--it says ALL men, and means exactly that. Who would we be, if we declared our rights to be so important and so precious when applied to ourselves, but ignored the rights and plights of those elsewhere around the world---talk about the pinnacle of hipocrasy--there, it would be.




So another country does not have the right to be independent and follow what their core values are beacuse you don't approve of them? I guess that means they have a right to impose their way of life on us then too. Anything less would be the term you used, 'hyprocracy'.

Same problem with religion .. who says YOUR god is right and not mine?

The only right answer is not to impose your relative views on someone else.

[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 06-12-2011).]

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Report this Post06-12-2011 11:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for User00013170Send a Private Message to User00013170Direct Link to This Post

User00013170

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quote
Originally posted by Boondawg:


But there are those here that have said that the protections provided by our Bill Of Rights should not apply to non-U.S. citizans.
But the words of our Declaration of Independence should?


Neither should if you ask me. Our house, our rules. Their house, their rules.

( now im not talking about someone committing genocide and such which of cousre is wrong and we should step in.. im being more generic in the concept of sovereignty here )

The last time i read the Constitution here on my wall it did start with 'We the people of the united states..', not 'We the people of Earth'... Perhaps i was reading the wrong document all along?

[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 06-12-2011).]

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Report this Post06-12-2011 12:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by User00013170:


So another country does not have the right to be independent and follow what their core values are beacuse you don't approve of them? I guess that means they have a right to impose their way of life on us then too. Anything less would be the term you used, 'hyprocracy'.

I never said that, and in fact said the opposite.
Of course they have the full 100% right to self determination--"they" meaning the people--not neccessarily the govt in power.

 
quote
Same problem with religion .. who says YOUR god is right and not mine?

The only right answer is not to impose your relative views on someone else.


I never said or implied we should force our views or beliefs uopn any peoples--I implied we have a responsibility--if we truly belief what our Declaration says--that includes helping ALL peoples have a right to the basic rights and freedoms spelled out in those opening lines.

No where, did I mention a specific religion or god, or our own constitution. That, is up to the people of any emerging political and religious nature once they've thrown off the yoke of tyranny--with or without our assistance.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 06-12-2011).]

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Report this Post06-12-2011 12:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for User00013170Send a Private Message to User00013170Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:

I never said that, and in fact said the opposite.
Of course they have the full 100% right to self determination--"they" meaning the people--not neccessarily the govt in power.

I never said or implied we should force our views or beliefs uopn any peoples--I implied we have a responsibility--if we truly belief what our Declaration says--that includes helping ALL peoples have a right to the basic rights and freedoms spelled out in those opening lines.

No where, did I mention a specific religion or god, or our own constitution. That, is up to the people of any emerging political and religious nature once they've thrown off the yoke of tyranny--with or without our assistance.



To me by saying our way of life is the only 'right' one and that we can run around and 'give' people the same rights we have, you have in effect said that other countries don't have the right to independence beacuse OUR belief in rights trump theirs. I don't separate a 'people' from their 'government' in general, as they are one in the same. Even the wackos that get power are still 'of the people', or they wouldn't get into power and have been dismissed ( or killed off ) without a % of populace support.

No, you didn't mention god/religion/etc. i was just using that as an example of the hypocrisy of people claiming their way is the only way. Religion is the ultimate example as its the pinnacle of blind hypocrisy and intolerance of opposing view points.

The constitution, while you may not have invoked it directly, to me as its the foundation of our country and our belief system of what is right and wrong so it was applicable in the discussion ( yes i know it goes beyond that and spells out the basic structure of our government, but its still an expression of our 'way of life' ).

Now, don't anyone misunderstand, i also disapprove personally of a lot of things other countries do to their citizens and also feel we are 'right', but i also wont for a second think i have any right to intervene in their internal affairs..



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Report this Post06-12-2011 12:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WhiteDevil88Send a Private Message to WhiteDevil88Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by User00013170:


Neither should if you ask me. Our house, our rules. Their house, their rules.

( now im not talking about someone committing genocide and such which of cousre is wrong and we should step in.. im being more generic in the concept of sovereignty here )

The last time i read the Constitution here on my wall it did start with 'We the people of the united states..', not 'We the people of Earth'... Perhaps i was reading the wroong document all along?



Well, if you stop reading after that clause, you are reading it wrong. Didn't anyone else have to diagram sentences in fifth grade? "We the people of the United States of America" is not a complete sentence. It is just the "Subject". We must have an action."hold these truths," is the action and object of the sentence. Which truths? "That all men are created equal".

Unless you are a slave, of course.
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Report this Post06-12-2011 12:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoondawgSend a Private Message to BoondawgDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:

yoke of tyranny


Determined by who?
The people, yes, of course, but which party, of those vying to overthrow the 'old guard' & start their own particular 'free' brand of government?

Are WE still under the 'yoke of tyranny', just to a different degree?
If some underground U.S. student dissidents here request help from........eh, let's say the Taliban........request assistance in overthrowing the U.S. Government, are they just seeking "freedom from oppression", or are they traitors & terrorists?
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Report this Post06-12-2011 01:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for User00013170Send a Private Message to User00013170Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Boondawg:


Determined by who?
The people, yes, of course, but which party, of those vying to overthrow the 'old guard' & start their own particular 'free' brand of government?

Are WE still under the 'yoke of tyranny', just to a different degree?
If some underground U.S. student dissidents here request help from........eh, let's say the Taliban........request assistance in overthrowing the U.S. Government, are they just seeking "freedom from oppression", or are they traitors & terrorists?


Only people that are truly free either live in anarchy or in a commune.


You can take the 'request assistance' a bit further.. Lets talk about our civil war. .what if one side or another asked and got help from outside sources enough to tip the balance of the war.. What if the south won due to it? Who was right, who was wrong? Its good example of why we should never get involved in internal issues.

"the prime directive" comes to mind
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Report this Post06-12-2011 01:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierobearSend a Private Message to fierobearDirect Link to This Post
Will the system work here? It is looking like we're going to need it.
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Report this Post06-12-2011 01:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for User00013170Send a Private Message to User00013170Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierobear:

Will the system work here? It is looking like we're going to need it.


Unless 'we the people' are broadcasters, which is highly restricted even now, anything electronic can be blacked out. And really even that could be eliminated, but it may not be practical as it would interfere with 'official' propaganda broadcasts too.

[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 06-12-2011).]

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Report this Post06-12-2011 01:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post
Don't confuse the Constitution with the Declaration of Independence.

The Constitution is a document setting up our own government where the power is vested in the people.
The Declaration of Independence is a letter to King George explaining why we were breaking away from the Crown. It has no bearing on the U.S. government as established under the Constitution. It is a list of grievances and reasons for our revolt, listing among them that ALL MEN have certain rights, and that is independent of any form of government, including the U.S. government.

If you haven't read them in a while, I recommend a refresher. We talk of our rights, but you should know where your rights come from, and our founding documents make it clear that they do not come from government.

The Declaration of Independence

Constitution of the United States

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Report this Post06-12-2011 02:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoondawgSend a Private Message to BoondawgDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:

Don't confuse the Constitution with the Declaration of Independence.



I do not.
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User00013170
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Report this Post06-12-2011 02:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for User00013170Send a Private Message to User00013170Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:

We talk of our rights, but you should know where your rights come from, and our founding documents make it clear that they do not come from government.



Its the government job to protect those rights..
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ray b
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Report this Post06-12-2011 05:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ray bSend a Private Message to ray bDirect Link to This Post
truly scary how the right lines up behind dictators

I think the time has come to end all non-democratic government world wide
start small with punks like daffy and work slowly up ward
barain and saudi should be on the list later
I see little diff in dictators or kings
or rigged elections like iran had
death to tyrants
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Report this Post06-12-2011 06:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for User00013170Send a Private Message to User00013170Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ray b:

truly scary how the right lines up behind dictators


People in general do, regardless of their political leanings. Most people need to be led. They are sheep.
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Formula88
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Report this Post06-12-2011 07:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ray b:

I think the time has come to end all non-democratic government world wide


Yeah, cuz a Democrat is in office. If it were Bush's idea you'd be screaming about empire building, conquest, blah, blah, BIG LIE, blah.
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dfinn
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Report this Post06-12-2011 07:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dfinnSend a Private Message to dfinnDirect Link to This Post
with all the time spent bitching on this forum about politics, you think someone would be able to dig up a qualified human being with a brain to actually run for office, instead of watching people who deem themselves worthy of such positions **** up the nation
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Boondawg
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Report this Post06-12-2011 07:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoondawgSend a Private Message to BoondawgDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dfinn:

with all the time spent bitching on this forum about politics, you think someone would be able to dig up a qualified human being with a brain to actually run for office, instead of watching people who deem themselves worthy of such positions **** up the nation


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Report this Post06-12-2011 08:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for User00013170Send a Private Message to User00013170Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dfinn:

with all the time spent bitching on this forum about politics, you think someone would be able to dig up a qualified human being with a brain to actually run for office, instead of watching people who deem themselves worthy of such positions **** up the nation


That isn't how politics works.
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maryjane
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Report this Post06-12-2011 08:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Boondawg:


Determined by who?
The people, yes, of course, but which party, of those vying to overthrow the 'old guard' & start their own particular 'free' brand of government?


Are WE still under the 'yoke of tyranny', just to a different degree?
If some underground U.S. student dissidents here request help from........eh, let's say the Taliban........request assistance in overthrowing the U.S. Government, are they just seeking "freedom from oppression", or are they traitors & terrorists?[/QUOTE]

Losts of questions directed at me.
Pick whichever answer(s) you think most applicable, believable, and/or most awsome sounding..

a. I don't have time for this. (but I DO contribute--I pay my taxes and vote)

b. I have no opinion(s) whatsoever on any of the above.

c. I always leave stuff like this up to people smarter than myself.

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Report this Post06-12-2011 09:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Boondawg:


Determined by who?


By the victors, of course.


 
quote
Originally posted by Boondawg:
If some underground U.S. student dissidents here request help from........eh, let's say the Taliban........request assistance in overthrowing the U.S. Government, are they just seeking "freedom from oppression", or are they traitors & terrorists?


John Hancock, Samuel Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, and the other 52 people who signed the Declaration of Independence were all terrorists and traitors to the Crown as far as King George III was concerned. Had we lost the Revolutionary War, they'd simply be known as rebels and traitors, much like the leaders of the Confederacy are not looked upon as patriots by the Union.
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Report this Post06-12-2011 09:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierobearSend a Private Message to fierobearDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ray b:

truly scary how the right lines up behind dictators


Really? Care to elaborate on that?

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partfiero
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Report this Post06-12-2011 09:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for partfieroSend a Private Message to partfieroDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ray b:

truly scary how the right lines up behind dictators

I think the time has come to end all non-democratic government world wide
start small with punks like daffy and work slowly up ward
barain and saudi should be on the list later
I see little diff in dictators or kings
or rigged elections like iran had
death to tyrants


We overthrew a small little dictator and his people hung him.
How many lives and how much $ did that cost us?
Oh wait we are still there and the cost is adding up every day, borrowed money as well.
How much $ and men we will have to spend to do what you are saying is really scary.
We can borrow the $, but not the men.
Sure you would be the first to sign up to give your life for your plan, otherwise you would be the same hypocrite as the politicians you often complain about.
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ray b
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Report this Post06-12-2011 11:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ray bSend a Private Message to ray bDirect Link to This Post
what I would have had done

afgan first hit them hard and with massive troop levels
seal the borders , hunt and kill their leadership both of the taliban and al-kiddies

wait until that mess is done
then pull out
BUT promise to be back with more hurt
if they let the nuts back in power

next if goddamm insane is a real problem kill him and his kids
but not while still hunting ben forgotten
get those who attacked us on 9-11 FIRST
and evidence points to iraq being unnecessary anyway
and just a big waste of time and effort

but I think the real root and cause is the saudi wasapies
as that is where the leadership, the funding and nuts on the aircraft all came from
when japs bombed pearl we did not attack peru
but that is exactly what we did in invading iraq and not saudi
and the wasapies are still a big problem and unpunished for 9-11 today

if the rug heads want to fight each other
the USA or nato or who every else should step back and watch
maybe pick off the leaders of the worst faction with drones or bombers
but certainly NOT put our troops in the middle of a religious war


I would ask/TELL Egypt and Tunisia go help your neighbor
do the same thing you just did, get the pig out of power
ESP if you want the USA to send more aid to you ever again

maybe we should start a free democratic mini UN
excluding all the dictators and kings ect
and knock out tyrants one by one world wide

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 06-12-2011).]

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Grandaddy84SE
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Report this Post06-13-2011 08:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Grandaddy84SESend a Private Message to Grandaddy84SEDirect Link to This Post
The point is this. In a democracy every action of every level of government can be held up for public scrutiny. Those in power, from Police Chiefs to Presidents and Prime Ministers, don't like it and try to dodge scrutiny, intimidate the public and change the rules, but in the end they are not above the law and therefore find it easier to compromise and negotiate their way out of trouble. Very few people remain in power for long in a democracy because they can't order the police to kill anyone who opposes them, so Obama is at the mercy of the electorate in 2012 and has no way around it. It's called self determination and allows the majority of those who bother to vote to work collectively to direct the course of their country. It's like herding cats through a lemming migration but it keeps the country on a more or less steady course. Any other system, monarchy, communism, theocracy, allows leaders to force the people to accept their authority, on pain of death if necessary, because the authority comes from an outside source, usually God or The Party. In a democracy the authority to govern comes ultimately from the people who bother to vote, if you start killing them they will vote you out of office. The ability to communicate with the outside world to publicize government violence against it's people, or for dissidents to communicate with each other, is the single most powerful tool for destroying a dictator. That's what this shadow internet provides. China is going to hate this.
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Pyrthian
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Report this Post06-13-2011 10:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
yes, the way Egypt "fell" was mighty strange. tho - still havent seen what will emerge. who is the new Egypt?

anyways - the middle east is certianly "changing" - and there are actual signs of "hope". always great to see the people prevail over the _____. but, I expect, as always - a few will think of themselves as more important than the others. thinking they are "Atlas", holding up the whole earth - and it will all start over again......

our founding fathers TRIED to put systems in places to keep these kinds from growing into entities which eventually hold the nation hostage to their interests - but - as we see today - not enough......

can anyone hear anything when everyone has a voice? learn to listen.

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Report this Post06-13-2011 08:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for avengador1Send a Private Message to avengador1Direct Link to This Post
This is a double edged sword in the wrong hands.
CIA Chief Leon Panetta: Cyberattack Could Be 'Next Pearl Harbor'
http://www.huffingtonpost.c...7Csec1_lnk3%7C215888
 
quote
Appearing before the Senate Armed Services Committee for a confirmation hearing for his appointment as the secretary of defense, Leon Panetta warned that the U.S. could face cyberwarfare in battles to come.

“The next Pearl Harbor we confront could very well be a cyber attack that cripples our power systems, our grid, our security systems, our financial systems, our governmental systems,” Panetta said.

Though he talked on subjects ranging from Libya, to withdrawing troops from Afghanistan, to the war on terrorism, Panetta highlighted his concerns regarding the U.S.'s preparedness for cyberattacks.

“This is a real possibility in today’s world,” he said. “As a result, I think we have to aggressively be able to counter that. It is going to take both defensive measures as well as aggressive measures to deal with it.”

The Obama administration recently unveiled its proposal for both global cybersecurity. Statements from the Pentagon have also indicated that the government will consider cyberattacks originating from foreign countries to be equivalent to acts of war meriting military response.


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Doug85GT
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Report this Post06-13-2011 09:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Doug85GTSend a Private Message to Doug85GTDirect Link to This Post
I am all for this. This is taking Radio Free Europe one step further.

During the Cold War, the US and our allies broadcast anti-communism radio programs across boarders into communist countries. This is just the same thing using today's technology.

.
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