If anyone knows me, they know I don't talk about my feelings or about myself. On here or anywhere else, but this is something that has me so... bothered(?), not the right word, but it'll do, that I have to get it out.

I just started re-reading On The Beach by Nevil Shute. Written in 1957, it takes place approximately 1 year after WWIII in 1963 Australia. WWIII was contained north of the Equator, but the radioactive fallout and airborne particles remain aloft and are carried on the winds on a slow, yet steady course south. The book isn't a conflict and resolution format, where there's a winner and a loser, everyone in this book is a loser. Everyone dies in the end. That's not what is getting to me though, the part that is getting to me deals with how some of the characters deal with the knowledge that they are going to die. In particular one pair of characters, husband and wife Peter and Mary Holmes who have an infant daughter.. gods, I can't even type it..

quote Peter Holmes, who has a baby daughter and a naive and childish wife, Mary, who is in denial about the impending disaster. Because he has been assigned to travel north with the Americans, Peter tries to explain, to Mary's fury and disbelief, how to euthanize their baby and kill herself with the pill should he not return from his mission in time to help.

When I first read this book about 10 years ago, nothing in it bothered me, I read it as a good work of fiction and nothing more. I was young and naive(not that the naive part has changed, but I'd like to think I'm less so) and the character developments and struggles I didn't understand. I'm 28 now and I have a 7 month old daughter of my own, and I've found that it's a lot harder to just speed read past parts of books like this now. I was born an empath, and up to this point in my life, I've been able to put it on hold so I could read a book or watch a movie, since my daughter was born, I've lost that ability. I can't get past that specific dialogue and argument because I can't see the book for the tears in my eyes. I put myself in their shoes, I see myself as Peter trying to talk to my wife about possibly killing our daughter to spare her the horrific death that accompanies radiation poisoning. The specific dialogue I can't find to copy/paste because I can't stand to read it to type it, but it's emotionally charged and very thought provoking. The point is brought up that their daughter may outlive them and could lay in her own "muck" crying till she dies from radiation sickness.

With that, I ask you. If you had to, could you?

Yes, but only because my personal analysis is that it would be quicker and more humane than the final other alternative. Not a choice I hope to ever have to make.

Don't watch Sophie's Choice. That one did it for me.

Since I don't have children, I'm probably not qualified to comment.
I just hope that I'm never placed in a similar situation.

But then again, you're not in that situation either. Even you don't know how you'd react. (That was not meant to be inflammatory.)

Edit - I just re-read your post. You didn't take a position at all, which is quite reasonable, all things considered.

quote Originally posted by Rallaster: If anyone knows me, they know I don't talk about my feelings or about myself. With that, I ask you. If you had to, could you?

quote Originally posted by Radar: Edit - I just re-read your post. You didn't take a position at all, which is quite reasonable, all things considered.

He's asking 'us' to do what he's unable or unwilling to do.

Answer:
Could? Yes.
Would? probably not--for personal religious reasons and I won't comment further on the religious aspect of it so don't bother trying to goad me into it.

btw, it was also a movie--and a great one. Quite controversial at the time of it's release.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 06-22-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Rallaster: If anyone knows me, they know I don't talk about my feelings or about myself. On here or anywhere else, but this is something that has me so... bothered(?), not the right word, but it'll do, that I have to get it out. I just started re-reading On The Beach by Nevil Shute. Written in 1957, it takes place approximately 1 year after WWIII in 1963 Australia. WWIII was contained north of the Equator, but the radioactive fallout and airborne particles remain aloft and are carried on the winds on a slow, yet steady course south. The book isn't a conflict and resolution format, where there's a winner and a loser, everyone in this book is a loser. Everyone dies in the end. That's not what is getting to me though, the part that is getting to me deals with how some of the characters deal with the knowledge that they are going to die. In particular one pair of characters, husband and wife Peter and Mary Holmes who have an infant daughter.. gods, I can't even type it.. When I first read this book about 10 years ago, nothing in it bothered me, I read it as a good work of fiction and nothing more. I was young and naive(not that the naive part has changed, but I'd like to think I'm less so) and the character developments and struggles I didn't understand. I'm 28 now and I have a 7 month old daughter of my own, and I've found that it's a lot harder to just speed read past parts of books like this now. I was born an empath, and up to this point in my life, I've been able to put it on hold so I could read a book or watch a movie, since my daughter was born, I've lost that ability. I can't get past that specific dialogue and argument because I can't see the book for the tears in my eyes. I put myself in their shoes, I see myself as Peter trying to talk to my wife about possibly killing our daughter to spare her the horrific death that accompanies radiation poisoning. The specific dialogue I can't find to copy/paste because I can't stand to read it to type it, but it's emotionally charged and very thought provoking. The point is brought up that their daughter may outlive them and could lay in her own "muck" crying till she dies from radiation sickness. With that, I ask you. If you had to, could you?

When you say "empath" do you mean like Whoopie Goldberg on Star Trek the Next Generation, or do you mean as in, you have empathy and have the ability to imagine / feel the same feelings that others have. A lot of us have that. But one of the things that greatly affects people is when they have their own child. I go through this same thing day in and day out. EVERY SINGLE DAY, there is a new story about a child who is killed, either from abuse, or an accident. I always read them, and it doesn't help me in any way. I don't know why I continue to read them, but it's always equally devestating. For example, this morning, I told myself I wasn't going to read them, and just found an article on Fox News (at the bottom) about a baby who was killed in a microwave. Then, as is in typical fashion, they link all previous stories and give us statistics on how many babies have died in microwaves over the past few years.

It hurts. Part of having a child for most normal people is the emotional impact it has on you. Stories and movies that you might have seen before (involving children getting hurt) have far more impact after you have your own child, than they did before you had kids.

I haven't read the book... but if they were going to die anyway, why would they need to kill themselves ahead of time? Sounds like an interesting book though...

quote Originally posted by maryjane: btw, it was also a movie--and a great one. Quite controversial at the time of it's release.

What was the name of the movie, and can I ask... was one of the starring actors Kurt Douglas? hehe...

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 06-22-2011).]

No, it wasn't the one with the steamy "Kirk" Douglas beach scene. Wrong war. May have been Hugh O'Brien that had the beach scene I'm thinking of "In Harm's Way".

quote In 1959, Stanley Kramer directed On The Beach, based on the novel by Nevil Shute and starring Gregory Peck and Ava Gardner

Re made in the early 2000s for television, but I can't remember who was in that one.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 06-22-2011).]

I'm not so sure if I could or not. The Tao Te Ching says not to kill. It doesn't separate killing for merciful purposes from killing for any other reason. That when we kill, we are interfering with the natural unfolding of events and denying the other person(s) of the experiences they are supposed to have. Now, not that I'm some kind of saint who manages to live entirely by the Tao, but I certainly give it a try. It would not be an easy decision, that's for sure.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: I'm not so sure if I could or not. The Tao Te Ching says not to kill. It doesn't separate killing for merciful purposes from killing for any other reason. That when we kill, we are interfering with the natural unfolding of events and denying the other person(s) of the experiences they are supposed to have. Now, not that I'm some kind of saint who manages to live entirely by the Tao, but I certainly give it a try. It would not be an easy decision, that's for sure.

It says not to kill, but does it say what not to kill? Killing goes beyond human-on-human variety. When I swat a fly, I kill it. Do you observe at that level, or just humans, and why?

I COULD EASILY DO THIS ,BUT IVE SEEN MORE SUFFERING THAN MOST
I have grown mellower with old age, I now would have trouble blowing my own brains out
I was in a group where a suffering man ask to be killed,I was senior man & afraid if I did the deed others would squeel,
another just pulled the trigger,never a 2nd thought,& walked away,HE MANED UP
YOU HAVE TO LEAD SOMETIMES ,OUR SOCIETY HAS WOMANIZED US..SO SENSITIVE

quote Originally posted by tbone42: It says not to kill, but does it say what not to kill? Killing goes beyond human-on-human variety. When I swat a fly, I kill it. Do you observe at that level, or just humans, and why?

I'll swat fly, flush a tick, or spray a spider or a hornet. Like I said, I don't live by it absolutely, I don't know if anyone could. I can't say there's any "line" as far as if it has fur I won't kill it, but if it flies and stings I will. I also can't say that there aren't times when I might kill something that I don't feel remorse afterward. I have a lot of conflicting feelings about this sort of thing, especially when it comes to the prospect of killing another human being. I think I could, and most certainly would in the right situation. In fact, who's to say that when living by the Tao, when it says that you are depriving the other being of fulfilling its experience, who's to say that being killed (by me or anyone/anything else) isn't actually the experience it's *supposed* to have? Dunno...

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: When you say "empath" do you mean like Whoopie Goldberg on Star Trek the Next Generation, or do you mean as in, you have empathy and have the ability to imagine / feel the same feelings that others have. A lot of us have that.

My empathy is at the upper end of human average. If I'm close enough to someone that is recently injured, I feel their pain. To slightly less degree, but I do feel it. If someone is in distress, I feel their distress, and have the same physical reaction they do. When I was a kid, it was something akin to autism, in that I was always bombarded with information, I couldn't keep it out, no way to block it. When I did learn to block it, I locked it up and buried it. I didn't just dull it down, I blocked off as much of it as I could, I wanted nothing to do with it. As a result, I developed a stoic lifestyle, letting nothing get to me. I blocked as much emotion as I could, from others as well as myself. I didn't discriminate, I blocked happiness, sadness, anger, depression, all of it, as much as I could. I also never talked about myself to others, which is something that hasn't changed. For me to open up like this is extraordinarily rare. I have only talked about myself or my feelings to anyone a handful of times EVER.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: I'll swat fly, flush a tick, or spray a spider or a hornet. Like I said, I don't live by it absolutely, I don't know if anyone could. I can't say there's any "line" as far as if it has fur I won't kill it, but if it flies and stings I will. I also can't say that there aren't times when I might kill something that I don't feel remorse afterward. I have a lot of conflicting feelings about this sort of thing, especially when it comes to the prospect of killing another human being. I think I could, and most certainly would in the right situation. In fact, who's to say that when living by the Tao, when it says that you are depriving the other being of fulfilling its experience, who's to say that being killed (by me or anyone/anything else) isn't actually the experience it's *supposed* to have? Dunno...

I myself try to kill intentionally as little as possible. Can't go a day in the spring, summer, or autumn without unintentionally killing bugs with my car at least, I heard that is why some Hindus dont even drive.
Some are all on about snakes and spiders, but I have no problem with them. In most cases, you leave them alone, they leave you alone.. but a couple years ago a snake made an "appearance" at my family reunion, and some "woman" on my Dad's wife side of the family was screaming for someone to kill it. All it was doing was sunning itself on some rocks by the pool. So I asked her how she would feel if when she was laying out tanning (which she appeared to do OFTEN) someone came by and took her head off with a shovel. Still, she tried to get her husband to get a shovel and whack it. I told him to leave it alone or he messed with me next. A minute later, the snake went down a hidey hole and got on with its life. Hurting no one.

I like spiders too... they are artists and make beautiful webs. People who want to kill animals and insects based solely on irrational fear or want of entertainment are the lowest form of human, in my opinion.

quote Originally posted by tbone42: I myself try to kill intentionally as little as possible. Can't go a day in the spring, summer, or autumn without unintentionally killing bugs with my car at least, I heard that is why some Hindus dont even drive. Some are all on about snakes and spiders, but I have no problem with them. In most cases, you leave them alone, they leave you alone.. but a couple years ago a snake made an "appearance" at my family reunion, and some "woman" on my Dad's wife side of the family was screaming for someone to kill it. All it was doing was sunning itself on some rocks by the pool. So I asked her how she would feel if when she was laying out tanning (which she appeared to do OFTEN) someone came by and took her head off with a shovel. Still, she tried to get her husband to get a shovel and whack it. I told him to leave it alone or he messed with me next. A minute later, the snake went down a hidey hole and got on with its life. Hurting no one. I like spiders too... they are artists and make beautiful webs. People who want to kill animals and insects based solely on irrational fear or want of entertainment are the lowest form of human, in my opinion.

Could not agree more. I hate snakes and spiders but that does not justify ending their life because of my fears.

If my kid comes home with one more ticket he won't live long enough to have to worry about nuclear fall out!

quote Originally posted by Rallaster: My empathy is at the upper end of human average. If I'm close enough to someone that is recently injured, I feel their pain. To slightly less degree, but I do feel it. If someone is in distress, I feel their distress, and have the same physical reaction they do. When I was a kid, it was something akin to autism, in that I was always bombarded with information, I couldn't keep it out, no way to block it. When I did learn to block it, I locked it up and buried it. I didn't just dull it down, I blocked off as much of it as I could, I wanted nothing to do with it. As a result, I developed a stoic lifestyle, letting nothing get to me. I blocked as much emotion as I could, from others as well as myself. I didn't discriminate, I blocked happiness, sadness, anger, depression, all of it, as much as I could. I also never talked about myself to others, which is something that hasn't changed. For me to open up like this is extraordinarily rare. I have only talked about myself or my feelings to anyone a handful of times EVER.

Its an interesting and different problem. Burying or blocking emotion can be something that will build up and cause problems. Its good to be more open. I'm glad you can sometimes. You seem to recognize blocking yourself from feeling is not good. Continuing to try to work around the problem seems a good idea. Hope things continue to go better for you.

quote Originally posted by tbone42: ...a couple years ago a snake made an "appearance" at my family reunion, and some "woman" on my Dad's wife side of the family was screaming for someone to kill it. All it was doing was sunning itself on some rocks by the pool. So I asked her how she would feel if when she was laying out tanning (which she appeared to do OFTEN) someone came by and took her head off with a shovel. Still, she tried to get her husband to get a shovel and whack it. I told him to leave it alone or he messed with me next.

Right on!

quote Originally posted by tbone42: I myself try to kill intentionally as little as possible. Can't go a day in the spring, summer, or autumn without unintentionally killing bugs with my car at least, I heard that is why some Hindus dont even drive. Some are all on about snakes and spiders, but I have no problem with them. In most cases, you leave them alone, they leave you alone.. but a couple years ago a snake made an "appearance" at my family reunion, and some "woman" on my Dad's wife side of the family was screaming for someone to kill it. All it was doing was sunning itself on some rocks by the pool. So I asked her how she would feel if when she was laying out tanning (which she appeared to do OFTEN) someone came by and took her head off with a shovel. Still, she tried to get her husband to get a shovel and whack it. I told him to leave it alone or he messed with me next. A minute later, the snake went down a hidey hole and got on with its life. Hurting no one. I like spiders too... they are artists and make beautiful webs. People who want to kill animals and insects based solely on irrational fear or want of entertainment are the lowest form of human, in my opinion.

I don't go out of my way to kill things, however... At one of the job sites I work on there are rattlesnakes. Now there are several small children and pets that are out and about on these lots. I do alot of maintenance on these lots. When I see a poisonous snake, I kill it. It's not a fear thing, I'm not afraid of them. It's not a sadistic pleasure thing, I don't take pleasure in it. It is a protecting myself, my family, the children that play in thr area and the pets. If I were to get bit, that would be financially devastating to my family (I'm the soul wage earner). If one of the children or pets were bit, I would feel some responsibility for allowing it to live and endager them. Over the almost 5 years I've been up there I have killed roughly 10 rattlesnake (only 2 of them old enough to have a rattle, the rest were babies with only a button which makes them much more dangerous as they give no warning of impending strike and are small enough to hide in place people wouldn't expect them).

Now there are also garter snakes, blow snakes and blue racer snakes. Those I will go out of my way to keep from injuring. I will capture them and walk them into the brush and release them if they are in danger of being ran over by one of the tractors I use.

Honestly, aside from hitting a cat accidentally with my car those are the only animals I can remember killing, and I was in the F.F.A. in highschool. I raised pigs and rabbits for slaughter, but I was not the one that slaughtered them.

I will not apologize for killing those snakes. They are a danger to the people that live there and the people that go there.

As to the O.P. question, I don't know if I could do that. I can't even think of killing any member of my family, it goes against every fiber of my being.

[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 06-23-2011).]

I don't know if I could do it, but I do know that I wouldn't do it. There are too many unknowns there for me to make such a big decision.

I would keep thinking "What if after I pass, a stranger comes and takes in my daughter as his own and raises her?"
Like I said.. too many what ifs.

As to spiders and snakes... I'll kill a snake that gets in my way and makes itself a threat, but not another. I kill spiders or insects on most occasions.

[Rallaster

I'm asking, if a situation like this did occur, where you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you and your family were going to die within the next year from a sickness that has no cure and is as gruesome as you can possibly imagine, could YOU step in and save you and your family from the suffering when the disease set in? How would your personal morals and ethics play into a situation like this?

quote Originally posted by tbone42: People who want to kill animals and insects based solely on irrational fear or want of entertainment are the lowest form of human, in my opinion.

quote Originally posted by Khw: I don't go out of my way to kill things, however... [snip] It's not a fear thing, I'm not afraid of them. It's not a sadistic pleasure thing, I don't take pleasure in it. It is a protecting myself, my family, the children that play in thr area and the pets.... [snip] I will not apologize for killing those snakes. They are a danger to the people that live there and the people that go there.

heh.. no, you're good. Neither fear nor sick entertainment behind your actions.
Getting sued sucks, you are doing the only thing you can.

quote Originally posted by theBDub: I don't know if I could do it, but I do know that I wouldn't do it. There are too many unknowns there for me to make such a big decision. I would keep thinking "What if after I pass, a stranger comes and takes in my daughter as his own and raises her?" Like I said.. too many what ifs. .

I think these views reflect mine as well.

Related: ever seen Stephen Kings, The Mist?

quote Originally posted by 2.5: I think these views reflect mine as well. Related: ever seen Stephen Kings, The Mist?

Nope, but I thought about reading it. I don't like Stephen King's writing style, but I've heard that once you get used to it, you love it, so that was on my list of future reads.