This was interesting. I marked the topic Politics but did consider marking it Fun Stuff. Larry A reporter volunteered to undergo Waterboarding stating a set of pre-conceived ideas and beliefs.
This was interesting. I marked the topic Politics but did consider marking it Fun Stuff. Larry A reporter volunteered to undergo Waterboarding stating a set of pre-conceived ideas and beliefs.
Yeah, I saw that video a year or so ago... seems a bit dramatic, but they guy doesn't get at all physically hurt, so I see no big deal.
Speaking of, I've been trying to find the video... has anyone seen the episode of It's Sunny in Philidelphia where the guys waterboard their female friend in the urinal... it's friggin hilarious.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Yeah, I saw that video a year or so ago... seems a bit dramatic, but they guy doesn't get at all physically hurt, so I see no big deal.
Speaking of, I've been trying to find the video... has anyone seen the episode of It's Sunny in Philidelphia where the guys waterboard their female friend in the urinal... it's friggin hilarious.
as fun as it is to torture the enemy, the reality is waterboarding, gitmo, and other BS did NOTHING to find Osama, did it? Osama had been sitting the exact same spot for 7-8 years, and not one waterboarded person gave him up. He was found thru classic investigation/police work.
torture & torment are more a control to instill fear in both your people and the enemy, than they are a information tool. and, in history, make the people who use it "the bad guys". Gitmo and the others will NEVER be justified in history. Especially in light of the facts that they NEVER led to the capture of either Saddam or Osama. Not even a spec. Tho, I expect the chistians will do all they can to pretend it didnt happen. And, funny how that works out, isnt it?
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11:25 AM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
as fun as it is to torture the enemy, the reality is waterboarding, gitmo, and other BS did NOTHING to find Osama, did it? Osama had been sitting the exact same spot for 7-8 years, and not one waterboarded person gave him up. He was found thru classic investigation/police work.
torture & torment are more a control to instill fear in both your people and the enemy, than they are a information tool. and, in history, make the people who use it "the bad guys". Gitmo and the others will NEVER be justified in history. Especially in light of the facts that they NEVER led to the capture of either Saddam or Osama. Not even a spec. Tho, I expect the chistians will do all they can to pretend it didnt happen. And, funny how that works out, isnt it?
We will never know what information they got out of Gitmo, you can say that it didn't do anything, but that would be false, just as to say it lead to captures... we just don't know.
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11:40 AM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Originally posted by jaskispyder: We will never know what information they got out of Gitmo, you can say that it didn't do anything, but that would be false, just as to say it lead to captures... we just don't know.
so, you will speculate in favor of torture? we have seen what led to the captures - and none of it leads back to torture. In fact - just the oppostie - it shows torture DOESNT work.
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11:45 AM
jaskispyder Member
Posts: 21510 From: Northern MI Registered: Jun 2002
so, you will speculate in favor of torture? we have seen what led to the captures - and none of it leads back to torture. In fact - just the oppostie - it shows torture DOESNT work.
I won't say either way, as I do not have access to classified information.
That's why it's not a good idea to torture someone for a confession. Torture only works to get information you can verify if it's accurate or not. i.e., ask someone for the combination to a safe. It's pretty easy to tell if they give you the right info or not.
As has been said, it has been proven over and over and over that ALL you get from torture, reliably.. is the person will tell you anything you WANT Tot hear to stop!!
As for this show Sunny in Philly.... WOW! Sure glad I have better taste than to watch that show! That description of the urinal water-boarding sounds down right disgusting and degrading!
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01:27 PM
TommyRocker Member
Posts: 2808 From: Woodstock, IL Registered: Dec 2009
Originally posted by 8Ball: WOW! Sure glad I have better taste than to watch that show! That description of the urinal water-boarding sounds down right disgusting and degrading!
Idk, Danny DeVito is hilarious in that show. Not for everyone I guess, but its in my top 3 television series.
Sidenote, in the episode "Frank Gets An Intervention" the shirt that Charlie is wearing is what my school's Pep Band wore during my sophomore year. Its crazy because we're just a small school in rural SE MN with 500 kids. The best part is that no one knows how they got a hold of one.
Waterboarding is know to be very effective. In fact if it "wasn't that scary" I doubt it would be used.
Those that are saying it doesn't look that bad should make their own videos and post them here to see how well they fare.
Come on...man up, state a time you think you can last, let us get someone carry out the waterboarding, see if you can make it.
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Waterboarding can cause extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints, lasting psychological damage and, if uninterrupted, death.[4] Adverse physical consequences can manifest themselves months after the event, while psychological effects can last for years.
Jumping from the 50th floor of the towers is like a walk in the park, no torture there. Waterboard then if there is a 1% chance you can keep more spattered blood and brains from having to be cleaned from the sidewalk.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Yeah, I saw that video a year or so ago... seems a bit dramatic, but they guy doesn't get at all physically hurt, so I see no big deal.
.
I'd love to have 24 hours of your time, and I guarantee you won't be at all "physically hurt", as you put it. At the end of that 24 hours I'll have you saying whatever I want you to say, even admitting having necrophiliac relations with a dead relative. It's amazing what people will say to make pain stop, even pain that doesn't cause physical damage.
Of course, I'd need you to sign a binding release of liability, including any claims for psychological damage, PTSD, depression, nightmares, insomnia, etc. None of those are physical, of course.
so, you will speculate in favor of torture? we have seen what led to the captures - and none of it leads back to torture. In fact - just the oppostie - it shows torture DOESNT work.
But you're wrong, torture DOES work! It works perfectly for sadists looking to get confessions, as proven by the KGB (which is where much of our tort...er...enhanced interrogation techniques derive from) for decades. It's also great for people who get their rocks off on pain, and it's great for inflicting vengeance for hurts, perceived or otherwise.
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06:37 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Jumping from the 50th floor of the towers is like a walk in the park, no torture there. Waterboard then if there is a 1% chance you can keep more spattered blood and brains from having to be cleaned from the sidewalk.
1%? So in your scenario 99% of the people that you would have tortured were innocent?
I wonder if it is easier to torture someone who looks like Osama Bin Laden then someone who looks like Robin Willams?
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 07-19-2011).]
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06:54 PM
Jul 20th, 2011
partfiero Member
Posts: 6923 From: Tucson, Arizona Registered: Jan 2002
1%? So in your scenario 99% of the people that you would have tortured were innocent?
I wonder if it is easier to torture someone who looks like Osama Bin Laden then someone who looks like Robin Willams?
Where did I say that Mr. Carnac? First of all how many people were waterboarded out of all that were captured? Second, the grunts have no info that is worth much. But I have no problem waterboarding someone captured because their position tells you they know enough, if extracted, that it may save American lives. And frankly your last statement is absurd. Why do you libs use the race card in your arguments, and it always seem to come as the parting shot. I don't give a crap if they look like you or me, if they are our sworn enemies, waterboard them.
[This message has been edited by partfiero (edited 07-20-2011).]
Then by definition you have no problem with our captured troops being waterboarded...
If they only got waterboarded, that would be a lot better than how they are treated now. Our captured troops are beaten, raped, bones broken and killed.
Only 3 prisoners were ever waterboarded under President Bush and I wish that those three had more done to them than just waterboarding. I don't miss one second of sleep on those three slime bags.
doesnt matter. you think torture is A-OK, and THAT is what really matters.
I don't think that torture is "A-OK". I have a specific definition of torture which matches the unidentified man's definition in the video.
You can't seem to even define the word so I have no idea what you mean by "torture". Would taking away Friday night pizza in Juvenile Hall be "torture" in your book?
Originally posted by Doug85GT: I don't think that torture is "A-OK". I have a specific definition of torture which matches the unidentified man's definition in the video.
You can't seem to even define the word so I have no idea what you mean by "torture". Would taking away Friday night pizza in Juvenile Hall be "torture" in your book?
it either is or it aint. above you seem to imply that it is. is it? or aint it?
and, for the friday pizza - if that is all the food they will get for the week - yes - that is torture. tho - it is cute to watch you try and "clinton out". calling for definitions, so you can try and find squiggle room. how about we skip "torture", and just stick to waterboarding? are you OK with it? you have said no, and implied yes - which is it? is waterboarding A-OK?
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03:21 PM
Doug85GT Member
Posts: 9704 From: Sacramento CA USA Registered: May 2003
it either is or it aint. above you seem to imply that it is. is it? or aint it?
and, for the friday pizza - if that is all the food they will get for the week - yes - that is torture. tho - it is cute to watch you try and "clinton out". calling for definitions, so you can try and find squiggle room. how about we skip "torture", and just stick to waterboarding? are you OK with it? you have said no, and implied yes - which is it? is waterboarding A-OK?
I am actually capable of answering questions:
Yes, I am "A-OK" with waterboarding.
It is not torture. Using fear to get compliance from a prisoner is not torture.
Originally posted by Pyrthian: you know damn well it is torture, and you are just trying to justify it.
Since you can't define what torture is, then this discussion isn't going to get very far. It is not torture according to my definition. You have no definition so torture can be anything.
Then by definition you have no problem with our captured troops being waterboarded...
Do you read? Go back and see what I said about grunts. They should be treated differently than the higher-ups. Any of our troops who is not an officer has nothing to offer, except to be used as propaganda, then later found in the road decapitated.
Our guys get treated way worse then the other way around. And officers have always known that when captured they will not be treated too kindly. And kissing both sides of the enemy's butt, will never change anything.
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04:00 PM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Originally posted by Doug85GT: Since you can't define what torture is, then this discussion isn't going to get very far. It is not torture according to my definition. You have no definition so torture can be anything.
but, here are several definitions, all of which include waterboarding as torture, and all recognized worldwide.:
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1. Part 1, Article 1 and the US Reservations of the UN Convention Against Torture:
The term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
2. The US Reservations for the UN Convention Against Torture: In order to constitute torture, an act must be specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering and that mental pain or suffering refers to prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from (1) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering; (2) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality; (3) the threat of imminent death; or (4) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality.
3. Article 32 of the Fourth Geneva Conventionany measure of such a character as to cause the physical suffering or extermination of protected persons in their hands. This prohibition applies not only to murder, torture, corporal punishments, mutilation and medical or scientific experiments not necessitated by the medical treatment of a protected person, but also to any other measures of brutality whether applied by civilian or military agents.
4. Article 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention: torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments, willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health
5. Article 7(2)(e) of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court"Torture" means the intentional infliction of severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, upon a person in the custody or under the control of the accused; except that torture shall not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to, lawful sanctions.
6. Inter-American Convention to Prevent and Punish Torture For the purposes of this Convention, torture shall be understood to be any act intentionally performed whereby physical or mental pain or suffering is inflicted on a person for purposes of criminal investigation, as a means of intimidation, as personal punishment, as a preventive measure, as a penalty, or for any other purpose. Torture shall also be understood to be the use of methods upon a person intended to obliterate the personality of the victim or to diminish his physical or mental capacities, even if they do not cause physical pain or mental anguish.The concept of torture shall not include physical or mental pain or suffering that is inherent in or solely the consequence of lawful measures, provided that they do not include the performance of the acts or use of the methods referred to in this article.
7. 18 United States Code Title 18, §2340(2) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control
(2)“severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—
(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
(C) the threat of imminent death; or
(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality;
I find it disgusting that you go to such lengths to attempt to justify torture.
edit: and, just for my own satisfaction - are you a christian?
[This message has been edited by Pyrthian (edited 07-20-2011).]
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04:06 PM
Doug85GT Member
Posts: 9704 From: Sacramento CA USA Registered: May 2003
