I got a new home stereo for Christmas. A $200 RCA jobber, nothing fancy. On my old system, which is even cheaper than this one, I ran the speaker wires across the ceiling through these channels. Here's the question. As long as the gauge is the same, is there a reason to replace the existing wires? Just trying to save some time. I'm running up to the store now, I fully expect you guys to have this answered upon my return.

Jim

No reason to replace it. You might want to trim the old, oxidized ends back to fresh copper. But other than that, no.

Ya, as long as the wire isn't messed up, it's just wire.

As long as the wires are the proper gauge, and are in good condition, they should be fine.

unless there is a significant wattage increase - no - existing is good.

I'd expect if you go to audio websites, you can find a table for Guage/Watts

You need Audioqest Everest speaker cables with "Counter Spiralling Geometry" and "Spread Spectrum Technology".

Should only set you back about $21,000 for a 10-foot long run.

http://www.noiseaddicts.com...dioquest-audiophile/

You guys never let me down, piss me off sometimes, but never let me down. Thanks!

Jim

quote Originally posted by rinselberg: "Spread Spectrum Technology".

Yea ... 20 Hz to 20 KHz. (Chuckle)

To answer the original question ... No. Your existing speaker wires should be fully adequate as long as they are 16/18 gauge or larger. Even at very loud listening levels with inefficient speakers, the average power level being carried by the speaker wires is only a couple of watts. Just about the only thing that heavier gauge speaker wires get you is a higher damping factor. Ignore spurious advertising claims about "high purity copper" and the like.

In your case, no.

The expensive stuff should be considered for hobbyists. Unless you are really into it, you dont need it. Yes it makes a difference but for a $200 steroe, shouldn't matter.

Personally Id replace it all with wire coathangers, it was proven in a double blind audio test, audiophiles chose coathangers over $1,000 cables, so they have to be better than plain-jane wire!

quote Originally posted by Shill: In your case, no. The expensive stuff should be considered for hobbyists. Unless you are really into it, you dont need it. Yes it makes a difference but for a $200 steroe, shouldn't matter.

...the expensive stuff should never be considered period (unless you are the type that likes to brag about your $600 cables) - proper gauged stranded cable is all that is needed for the audio range of frequencies - anyone telling you different is blowing smoke up your...

Yes, better cable is needed at higher frequencies, but not in the range that the human ear (or dog for that matter) can hear.

It was all for nothing anyway. On the old speakers it was the type where the wire is inserted into the tab thingy, so I was thinking I could use that wire. On the new speakers the wire is permanent affixed to the speaker. So I just used some yarn when pulling out the old wire, and then fed the new speaker wire through using the yarn. At least I'm a little smarter for asking though.

Jim

+1 with above statements. One thing to consider however: twisting or twisted pair to cancel out interference, very effective. You can use a drill and twist em up.

[This message has been edited by LZeppelin513 (edited 01-05-2012).]

if you need a roll and havve a few days to spare. (for shipping)
monoprice.com has great prices. then you can pick up a few spare HDMI cables to sell your friends when they want to run to the store to over spend on one

quote Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: ...the expensive stuff should never be considered period (unless you are the type that likes to brag about your $600 cables) - proper gauged stranded cable is all that is needed for the audio range of frequencies - anyone telling you different is blowing smoke up your... Yes, better cable is needed at higher frequencies, but not in the range that the human ear (or dog for that matter) can hear.

There is a difference, just like removing that extra 5 lbs of dirt from your car will give a slightly faster 1/4

Once again there is a notable difference, will you be able to walk into someones house and tell they have nice wiring? Probably not unless many other factors are right. There are many factors that come into play when dealing with audio, the perfect system can all come down to the angle of the speakers, the type of paint on the walls, if there is an extra person in the room than the system was designed for. When you are an extreme hobbyist, the cabling will make a difference.

quote Originally posted by Shill: There is a difference ...

OK. What is this difference? Is it audible? And you know this ... HOW?

quote When you are an extreme hobbyist, the cabling will make a difference.

Yea ... to your wallet.

With respect to wire diameter, I remember once in high school when I replaced some really thin cheapy wire (not much thicker than what you'd see on a pair of headphones) with some actual run-of-the-mill speaker wire from Radio Shack... and it made a huge difference in sound.

quote Originally posted by Shill: There is a difference, just like removing that extra 5 lbs of dirt from your car will give a slightly faster 1/4 Once again there is a notable difference, will you be able to walk into someones house and tell they have nice wiring? Probably not unless many other factors are right. There are many factors that come into play when dealing with audio, the perfect system can all come down to the angle of the speakers, the type of paint on the walls, if there is an extra person in the room than the system was designed for. When you are an extreme hobbyist, the cabling will make a difference.

I'm not so extreme as to worry about the italicized stuff....

Yes, better wire makes a difference, but the question is, does it make a difference to you? My system (for now, explained parenthetically):

Harman Kardon PM640 (Being replaced by an Arcam Alpha 8 - Thanks Audiogon!)
Panasonic DMPBD75
Pro-Ject Debut III/Audio Technica AT440MLa
Paradigm Studio 20 V3
Panamax PM5400

I recently biwired my speakers, just so you know how nuts I am. So, some notes from my perspective:

Wire guage: Not just important for power, but for distance. The greater resistance of smaller cable means less signal gets to your speakers - not just frequency, but impact. Music is dynamic, otherwise, it would be just a tone. 18 gauge lamp cord is OK for most lower end setups, but consider 16 gauge wire for longer distances.

Copper purity: Again, resistance. Copper has several thousand grains per foot, and electrons "jump" from grain to grain, eliciting signal loss over longer runs. Oxygen in wire exacerbates this, plus it encourages corrosion. Oxygen Free Copper means that you won't need to replace wire as often. Linear Crystal OFC means that you now have about four grains per foot - less resistance. Pure Copper Ohno Continuous Casting (PCOCC) is one grain spread to over forty feet.

Other concerns: Really just one. If you are running wire in the wall, look for a CL rated "plenum" cable (CL2, CL3). Some states require it. Basically, the jacket resists burning, so your wire doesn't become a wick, transporting flame from one section of the house to another.

Recorded music, if it is done well, offers more than frequency response. Dynamics, air, imaging and life come from a good recording on a good stereo. While I can't tell you what type of sound deadening that they used in studio, I do appreciate when it sounds like a snare or a piano (or Mariah) is in the room with me.

Wow, I really opened Pandora's box didn't I? Did anyone notice I have already hooked up my theater, and everything is working fine? Go back to your audiophile argument.

Jim

quote Originally posted by jimbolaya: Wow, I really opened Pandora's box didn't I? Did anyone notice I have already hooked up my theater, and everything is working fine? Go back to your audiophile argument. Jim

Yes, i noticed, how do you like it so far? Even if you used nice wire i doubt it wouldve mattered in your case.
Anyways, for the average joe venturing into high end stereo really doesnt need to worry about much when it comes to cabling maybe the biggest factors for them would be if it is shielded, or is the wireis vacuum sealed which doesnt let air or moisture in to corrode the wires, which helps prolong them.

Using plenum rated cable in a non-plenum area is just a waste of money.

Riser (CMR) rated cable is rated not to 'wick' fire and is less expensive. It is the standard for use in floor to floor cabling to prevent fire from following the cable.

Plenum rated cable is designed for use in an air handling plenum.

Not a tantrum:

quote Originally posted by Shill: I've heard stereos that would make people cry. You could hear the faintest things like elton johns fingertips as he hit the keys, the humming of amplifiers, repositioning of feet as they are singing. Stuff that youd never thought youd hear from old vinyl recordings...

You're underrating vinyl. With a good table and needle, you can hear those things, with more life and air than a CD player can muster.

"Late at night, I listen to vinyl, because that is the only way to know what the artist was feeling." Carlos Santana.

I understand that some don't care as much as me about the quality of sound that they're listening to. Some are freakishly obsessive. Like with anything.

And, for all you LS Fiero guys, why not put $30 tires on stock rims? I mean, who'll notice any difference in ride quality? Or stopping distance. A great stereo with crappy wires is not going to sound like you put the money into it. And decent wire allows a good stereo to sound up to its potential.

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: A great stereo with crappy wires is not going to sound like you put the money into it. And decent wire allows a good stereo to sound up to its potential.

Well said. It's just one link in the chain. If it's not the weakest link, you won't notice a difference. If it is, you might (if you have the ear for it).
That was something that amazed me as I was building my new home system. As I improved components, they really showed me how much other stuff sucked - but I couldn't tell before.

quote Originally posted by Shill: Yes, i noticed, how do you like it so far?

It's great, thanks for asking? I'm not an audiophile. I just want a little more oomph in the sound when watching action movies, and it delivers adequately.

Jim

quote Originally posted by jimbolaya: It's great, thanks for asking? I'm not an audiophile. I just want a little more oomph in the sound when watching action movies, and it delivers adequately. Jim

May I suggest some Spice Cake? I promise you, you'll forget about this wire thing.

------------------
Ron
The key thing is to wake up breathing! All the rest can be fixed. (Except Stupid - You can't fix that)

quote Originally posted by blackrams: May I suggest some Spice Cake? I promise you, you'll forget about this wire thing.

Wires, what wires?

Jim

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: Wire guage: Not just important for power, but for distance. The greater resistance of smaller cable means less signal gets to your speakers - not just frequency, but impact. Music is dynamic, otherwise, it would be just a tone. 18 gauge lamp cord is OK for most lower end setups, but consider 16 gauge wire for longer distances. Copper purity: Again, resistance. Copper has several thousand grains per foot, and electrons "jump" from grain to grain, eliciting signal loss over longer runs. Oxygen in wire exacerbates this, plus it encourages corrosion. Oxygen Free Copper means that you won't need to replace wire as often. Linear Crystal OFC means that you now have about four grains per foot - less resistance. Pure Copper Ohno Continuous Casting (PCOCC) is one grain spread to over forty feet. Recorded music, if it is done well, offers more than frequency response. Dynamics, air, imaging and life come from a good recording on a good stereo. While I can't tell you what type of sound deadening that they used in studio, I do appreciate when it sounds like a snare or a piano (or Mariah) is in the room with me.

This sounds just like the info companies like Monster use to convince costumers to throw away money.

Reminds me of when I went to radio shack to pick up a High Def antennae. They pushed the more expensive one because it had gold plated terminals and fancy wires/ insulation. Are you kidding? the signal just traveled miles through thin AIR, but yet a fancy wire is going to make the DIGITAL signal more crisp? lol.

quote Originally posted by Shill: When you are an extreme hobbyist, the cabling will make a difference.

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: Yea ... to your wallet.

Agreed, Marvin. Its just another way to make money off public ignorance and desire to have the newest cool stuff.

[This message has been edited by LZeppelin513 (edited 01-05-2012).]

quote Originally posted by LZeppelin513: This sounds just like the info companies like Monster use to convince costumers to throw away money. ... Agreed, Marvin. Its just another way to make money off public ignorance.

Wait. Let me cancel my Arcam and pick up an Emerson stereo, instead. Physics lie. It's all the same, anyways. I can see where you're coming from; Zep was never recorded very well, anyways.

So, what kind of spark plugs do you use?

[This message has been edited by Patrick's Dad (edited 01-05-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: So, what kind of spark plugs do you use?

Heh...

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: Wait. Let me cancel my Arcam and pick up an Emerson stereo, instead. Physics lie. It's all the same, anyways. I can see where you're coming from; Zep was never recorded very well, anyways. So, what kind of spark plugs do you use?

Every good snake oil has some truth behind it.

Sure, a very small amount of the signal is converted to heat as it passes over the wire.

But there's a point of diminishing returns. Our brain will not interpret a difference between a typical in home high end system set up with "normal" wiring compared to the same system with 1000% more expensive "high quality" wiring.

I don't really like using analogies but I will anyway:
If I made a V6 Fiero air intake duct from the filter box to the TB with a quality insulating polymer covered in high polished aluminum to reflect 99% of all infrared radiation, yeah I could give you solid physics showing that it will reduce intake temperatures thus making the car faster. I could then sell this for a premium to Fierophiles across America. AND the owners of this shiny new product who just shelled out big bucks for it would all claim their car is now faster and can feel the difference...

But in reality, the product would never make a significant difference, even though its backed by proven physics and has a bunch of fans claiming to have a faster car.

And I would be rich and happy.

Edit to add, and I am really getting off topic here, but: Do you know why zeppelin was recorded poorly? There were other bands, like pink floyd making music around the same time with much better quality sound.. Everything I read says how when Page was producing their stuff he was such a perfectionist...?

[This message has been edited by LZeppelin513 (edited 01-05-2012).]

Check your local building codes as well . i do know that in Canada(this for sure means your codes might differ) that is you are running wires in your house in the walls ,ceiling or base boards that if they are not approved double shielded that in case of fire if it is found that you have regular wire your house insurance may be revoked and or cancelled

quote Originally posted by jimbolaya: I got a new home stereo for Christmas. A $200 RCA jobber, nothing fancy. On my old system, which is even cheaper than this one, I ran the speaker wires across the ceiling through these channels. Here's the question. As long as the gauge is the same, is there a reason to replace the existing wires? Just trying to save some time. I'm running up to the store now, I fully expect you guys to have this answered upon my return. Jim

besides that in most cases double shielded wire is less expensive and better quality than regular speaker wire

[This message has been edited by timmer (edited 01-05-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Shill: In your case, no. The expensive stuff should be considered for hobbyists. Unless you are really into it, you dont need it. Yes it makes a difference but for a $200 steroe, shouldn't matter.

What he said.

I used old phone wire cuz I have a3000' roll of it.

FWIW, in a former life I was a broadcast and recording engineer. (My last big broadcast TV project received an Emmy for "engineering achievement" in 1992.) I also designed and built custom broadcast and commercial sound and video systems for several years. Through the 1970s the company I owned was a factory-authorized service station for Sony, Panasonic, and JVC professional audio and video equipment. Finally, I was an amateur musician ... so I at least knew what good-quality live music was supposed to sound like, even if I couldn't make it myself.

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: Yes, better wire makes a difference ... Wire guage: Not just important for power, but for distance. The greater resistance of smaller cable means less signal gets to your speakers - not just frequency, but impact.

The only three electrical characteristics that mean anything for speaker wires are: DC resistance, capacitance, and inductance ... and resistance is the only variable that is likely to be significant under typical home audio conditions. Less signal to your speakers? Just turn up the volume control slightly; that's what it's for. Resistance affects frequency response? No. Resistance affects dynamic range ("impact")? No. As I've already said, damping factor is the only potentially-audible characteristic that is affected by speaker wire resistance.

quote 18 gauge lamp cord is OK for most lower end setups, but consider 16 gauge wire for longer distances.

I agree. A corollary is that using 2 gauge "oxygen-free" copper welding cable ... or anything similar ... for speaker wiring is a huge waste of money.

quote Copper purity ...

Wire made from "impure" copper may indeed have 2% higher resistance than the same gauge wire made from pure Unobtanium. So what? If you're worried about it, just increase the size of wire you're using. Problem solved. If you're truly obsessed with conductivity I would suggest using pure silver, which has significantly lower resistance than copper. The total resistance of the speaker wire run is all that matters, not the particular material that the wire is made from.

quote If you are running wire in the wall, look for a CL rated "plenum" cable (CL2, CL3). Some states require it. Basically, the jacket resists burning, so your wire doesn't become a wick, transporting flame from one section of the house to another.

I agree, but plenum-rated cable isn't required in all walls ... just in spaces (like dropped ceilings) that are part of the building's HVAC air handling system. The jacketing of plenum-rated cable doesn't release toxic gases (e.g. cyanides) when heated ... unlike ordinary vinyl-jacketed cable.

quote Recorded music, if it is done well, offers more than frequency response. Dynamics, air, imaging and life come from a good recording on a good stereo. While I can't tell you what type of sound deadening that they used in studio, I do appreciate when it sounds like a snare or a piano (or Mariah) is in the room with me.

Again, the total resistance of the speaker wire run is all that matters ... and the reason is its effect on the damping factor. I agree that for a good system you have to pay equal attention to the appropriate quality of each component chosen. $500 speaker wires made of pure Unobtanium will do nothing to improve the sound of an otherwise-crappy system.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 01-06-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: Again, the total resistance of the speaker wire run is all that matters ... and the reason is its effect on the damping factor.

Interesting. That makes sense plus your extensive background is good enough for me.

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: FWIW, in a former life I was a broadcast and recording engineer. (My last big broadcast TV project received an Emmy for "engineering achievement" in 1992.) I also designed and built custom broadcast and commercial sound and video systems for several years. Through the 1970s the company I owned was a factory-authorized service station for Sony, Panasonic, and JVC professional audio and video equipment. Finally, I was an amateur musician ... so I at least knew what good-quality live music was supposed to sound like, even if I couldn't make it myself.

Acknowledged. My history doesn't read quite as accomplished; Managed a stage production (Illusionist) for eight years, sold high end audio for three (did loudspeaker repair on the side during this time), sold professional A/V equipment for six, and have run professional light and sound for a stage production each year for the past twenty two (takes one week out of my year).

quote Again, the total resistance of the speaker wire run is all that matters ... and the reason is its effect on the damping factor. I agree that for a good system you have to pay equal attention to the appropriate quality of each component chosen. $500 speaker wires made of pure Unobtanium will do nothing to improve the sound of an otherwise-crappy system.

Damping factor is the ability of the amplifier to control the motion of the driver(s) in the speaker system. If the amplifier can't control the drivers as well, then the result is poor imaging and loss of detail in the musical passage. Agreed that a crappy amplifier won't be helped by good wire, but good wire should not be discounted for a good system.

In Zep's analogy, there are many other factors that would make his V6 intact duct matter: plenum volume, head porting, cam specs, valve diameter and back cut, exhaust design, etc. Will swapping the one piece result in faster 1/4 mile times? If nothing else has been done to the drive train, likely not. If other parts of the engine have been modded, then this may squeak that nth bit more performance from the system.

A Radio Shack receiver and TDC speakers (Old Tech HiFi house brand, reportedly stands for "Take Da Cash") will not care much beyond 18 gauge wire. My H/K and Paradigms have seen improvement - audible - with better wire and biwiring. Has the frequency range been extended? Not within my ability to hear. What has changed is the space around each musician, and the ability to resolve more complex information. It sounds more real. I expect that the Arcam amp that I should have in hand next week will improve the system even further. I'll let you know.

As a side note, some years ago, I ordered half a dozen interconnects (2m RCA stereo) from different manufacturers. I now sell at an appliance/electronics store to make my mortgage, and I wanted to upgrade what we had (RCA brand....). My stereo consisted of an Onkyo DVD player, a Van Alstine hybrid tube preamp, and Adcom MOSFET amp and Paradigm Monitor series speakers. I spent a night connecting and reconnecting the DVD player to the preamp, playing the same passage (about 30 seconds, but no more than a minute) through each. The side benefit is that I drove my wife crazy, if just for a night. From this, I made a decision as to the brand interconnect that we would carry. I did not choose the most expensive. I did not choose the best. I chose the best interconnect for the price that would be paid.

And yes, each of the interconnects sounded different. IIRC, I tested Ethereal, Monster, NXG, Phoenix Gold, Comprehensive and for the life of me, I can't remember the other one.

You guys are entertaining.

Jim

quote Originally posted by jimbolaya: You guys are entertaining. Jim

I charge for that.

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: I charge for that.

But you'll have to go start your own thread.

Jim