Yep, now that I have your attention, it is true. There are prophecies that have been made that you can argue could have been fulfilled but very few that you can find proof for.

World War II is one where there is a wealth of information to confirm the facts. This isn't conjecture.

Here is the prophecy in question.

Revelation 6:7-8 (New International Version)

7When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" 8I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

When was a minimum of 25% of the landmass of the earth first affected by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts?

When could mankind have first known this? The first time there was communication around the Globe was after the advent of the printing press. Even up to World War II there were happenings in different parts of the Globe that were unrecorded and unknown until much later.

Second, it could be argued that armed conflict (sword), famine, plague (mass disease) and attacks by wild animals have been with mankind since the dawn of time. So when did this combination first reach a 25% reportable volume?

Let us look at the 4 separate elements separately first, assuming that all have been present in the world for many millennia.

1. Attacks by wild animals – This is ongoing and inseparable from the history of mankind all over the world.
2. Plague – This is a phenomenon known to mankind from today back certainly to the middle ages but also to prior civilisations on every continent, but has increased steadily
3. Famine – Once again we have frequent famines on all continents of the earth during all of man’s recorded history up to the 21st Century, and is with us today
4. Sword – Again, armed conflict has been with us for millennia, but, when can we say that the Sword, or Armed Conflict became global in application? We know it is with us today

The facts listed below are commonly available on the Web, from sources including the World Health Organization, United Nations, Wikipedia, and other common sources.

When was the earth first reported to have a World War? And did that World War cover 25% of the earth?

The First World War, often referred to as the “Great War” encompassed theaters of war in many countries but not 25% of the landmass of the earth

The information can be found in detail here:

http://www.historyonthenet....ar.htm#Western_Front

The armed conflict was confined largely to Continental Europe, Western Asia, and the Middle East. If one includes the oceans it could be stated that the area of conflict was much larger, however, the Prophecy does not take into account the sea, or bodies of water, only the “earth”.

We cannot say with any certainty that 25% of the landmass of the earth was in a state of armed conflict in 1914, however more than 25% of the landmass was represented by the countries who were active combatants. Therefore it can be argued that all of North America, all of Russia, Europe, Australia, and parts of South America were at war. But, there was not 25% of the land mass affected by war.

The Surface area of the earth 510,066,000 sq km
Total land area 152,196,921 sq. km.
(Not inclusive of small islands)

Now let's next consider World War II. If anything, World War II was the greater of the two wars. World War II encompassed active armed conflict in most of Asia, all of Europe, North Africa, plus other parts of the earth, and included massive tracts of ocean including all major oceans and most seas.

Consider the landmass of the following countries and regions, (as their names appear today). All of these countries experienced armed conflict on their soil from 1939 to 1945.

Please note: This is not a complete list

Russia 17,075,200.00 sq.km
China 9,596,960.00
Libya 1,759,540.00
Egypt 1,001,450.00
Turkey 780,580.00
Ukraine 603,700.00
France 547,030.00
Thailand 514,000.00
New Guinea 462,840.00
Sweden 449,964.00
Morocco 446,550.00
Japan 377,835.00
Germany 357,021.00
Finland 337,030.00
Malaysia 329,750.00
Norway 324,220.00
Poland 312,685.00
Italy 301,230.00
Philippines 300,000.00
United Kingdom244,820.00
Belarus 207,600.00
Cambodia 181,040.00
Tunisia 163,610.00
Greece 131,940.00
Liberia 111,370.00
Bulgaria 110,910.00
Iceland 103,000.00
Serbia& Mont. 102,350.00
Hungary 93,030.00
Austria 83,858.00
Czech Rep. 78,866.00
Total 37,468,845.00 sq.km.

or 25% of the world’s landmass

Of all the countries of the world in 1945, only Ireland, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, and Vatican City remained neutral.

For known plagues during the war, during the Sino-Japanese war from 1937 to 1945, the Japanese used biological warfare against the Chinese. These included plague fleas infected with Cholera and Anthrax. Typhus, a famous pandemic, is well documented during World War II, and was rampant throughout Europe during the war years.

Of course there are many other diseases which have been increasing since WWII. The WHO estimates that close to 50% of the Worlds population is directly affected by disease today, including many considered plagues.

Famine was well documented in Vietnam from 1944 to 1945 directly caused by the war.

Holland had famine imposed on it as the Nazi’s stole their food and deliberately starved the people. It is worthwhile to note that thousands of Canadian soldiers liberated Holland and relieved the famine before the end of the war in Europe.

But, Famine has continued unabated since World War II.

The World Health Organization estimates that one-third of the world is well-fed, one-third is under-fed one-third is starving.

Now look at animal Attacks on Humans

The worst shark attack ever recorded took place from July 30th to August 5th 1945. During that week, sharks (including great whites, hammerheads, and tiger sharks) attacked and ate more then 750 of the US Naval officers and sailors that were stranded in the water after their ship, the USS Indianapolis was sunk while on a covert mission.

During the Battle of Ramree Island in Burma, on 19 February 1945, approximately 900 Japanese soldiers tried to escape capture through a mangrove swamp inhabited by salt-water crocodiles.
Only about 520 in total survived the night crossing. The Allied soldiers could hear the attacks during the night according to witness Bruce Wright, a British naturalist fighting with the Allies at that time. They later saw the vultures cleaning up the crocodiles’ leavings.

Wild Animal attacks are well documented even today.

So here is the thing. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and has feathers, it is likely a duck.

So it is with prophecy. Once it is fulfilled it is fulfilled.

As for the preceding prophecies in Revelation 6, there is information that they are open also, but, for this thread World War II is the subject.

I hope we have a discussion that is respectful of the Servicemen and Women who gave their lives, and the memoryof the millions of victims of World War II

Arn

Okay, I'm not up on my Bible prophecies and its been awhile since I read the "Left Behind" series but doesn't the Anti-Christ have to come to power before the events in Revelations can come to pass and before that the Rapture? Currently, there isn't anyone (not even Obama) in the global arena that might be a potential Anti-Christ and I know we haven't had a miraculous disappearance made up solely of believers.

Also, depending on how literally you take Revelations, all of the disasters, wars, famines, etc., take place within a seven year period. I would think the 7 years would have to be concurrent, not spread out over decades or even centuries.

Gary

I was always told that anyone that tries to make sense of revelations was a fool.

Just what I was told, but it makes sense.

I mean, have you actually read that stuff? It's an entire book of nonsense that can be bent to mean almost anything, the majority of the worlds kooks learned their "truth" from revelations.

Brad

quote Originally posted by G-Man: Okay, I'm not up on my Bible prophecies and its been awhile since I read the "Left Behind" series but doesn't the Anti-Christ have to come to power before the events in Revelations can come to pass and before that the Rapture? Currently, there isn't anyone (not even Obama) in the global arena that might be a potential Anti-Christ and I know we haven't had a miraculous disappearance made up solely of believers. Also, depending on how literally you take Revelations, all of the disasters, wars, famines, etc., take place within a seven year period. I would think the 7 years would have to be concurrent, not spread out over decades or even centuries. Gary

There is a school of theology that believes in what is called "post tribulation" doctrine. No, the Anti-Christ and the 7 years spoken about occur after the 7 Seals. In the 7th Seal the Church is seen in Heaven.

You also have to read what Jesus said about His Second Coming.

Here is the linkage between what Jesus described and the events in Revelation 6. Essentially the Apostle John sees what Jesus described in terms of the events surrounding His Return. This is spoken of in Revelation well before the rise of the Anti-Christ

Here is the information about the event itself according to Jesus Himself, as reported by His disciples.

Mathew 24: 29-30

“29. "Immediately after the distress of those days" 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
30. "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
31. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
32. "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.” “

Mark 13:24-29

“24."But in those days, following that distress," 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;
25. the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
26. At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
27And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
28. "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.
29. Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door.”


Luke 21:27-31

27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

29He told them this parable: "Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.


The Prophet John, in the Revelation later says this

Revelation 6:12-17

“12. I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13. and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14. The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place."

Notice the similarities. This occurs after the 4th Seal and 5th Seal, but before the Church is seen in Heaven

Hope this explains it some.

Arn

[This message has been edited by Arns85GT (edited 01-09-2011).]

The anti-chist is living with us today and its name is

Left Behind crossed my mind, too. I read the entire series. Every word.
But it is mistaken. Noone will be spared the 3.5 years of tribulation, save those who die before or during it, and likewise the following 3.5 years of great tribulation. The rapture follows the 7 years, rather than preceeding it.
Now, back to Arn's thread-starter.
Revelation 6 is a condensed version of Daniel 11. Which hasn't happened yet.
Further, while WW2 may fit as you described, nowhere do the scriptures say that those qualifications can't be fulfilled more than once.
And Arn, while you're reading, trying to prove prophesies fulfilled, also read:
Isaiah 2:2-3, 7-8
Isaiah 5:26-27
Isaiah 49:22
Isaiah 54:2
Daniel 2:44
I'm eager to read what you make of them.
BTW, I use the King James Version.

[This message has been edited by Isolde (edited 01-09-2011).]

There is nothing wrong with the KJV and I learned on it as a child. I currently use the NIV for more uptodate wording.

From my reading, there are 3 separate returns of Jesus, not one.

There is the "rapture"
There is the "triumphant return" prior to the Millenial reign
and there is Armageddon.

What we are talking about is the first return. It is all well and actually good to discuss the merits of the pre-tribulation and post-tribulation doctrines, but that is not the intent of this thread. The intent is to look at the 20 Century evidence that supports the belief that the 4th seal prophecy has been fulfilled.

When John reports seeing the people dressed in white in the 7th Seal, he refers to them as having come out of great tribulation, not "the" great tribulation"

So let's see if that could be the case today.

The World Health Organization reports that 1/3rd of the world's people are in some degree of starvation.
Around 1/2 of the world is directly affected by disease
If we look at the history of the last 50 years, there has been much suffering in the world. In fact, we don't hear about most of the press releases about Christians being butchered in parts of the world. There have been millions killed in the 20 Century by Communists, Nazi's and extremist Muslims.

Check out this overview of the 20 Century, and compare it against the first 4 Seals

Looking at the British Empire, it was the first World Empire, circumnavigating the world with the intention of World Domination. This was closely followed by the writing of the Communist Manifesto in 1847 which lead to Bolshevik Revolution in Russia in 1917. World War I started in 1914 but, in particular, the Communist Manifesto penned in 1847 was a document intended to lead to World Conquest. (Seal 1)

The countries of the Allies tried to prevent further World War by instituting the Covenant of the League of Nations in 1919. This effort to promote World Peace failed. Conflict and the horrors of the Stalinist purges prevailed. (Seal 2)

Soon the World suffered the Great Depression, the great dust bowl, etc. Starvation and hardship followed for 10 years, and culminated in World War II. (Seal 3)

In North America we are blessed. We do not see the suffering of humanity on a daily basis as we go to work and play. The fact is that much of the Christian world is in serious tribulation today.

When Jesus returns, if you believe the "pre-tribulation" theology, the Christians will leave the earth and create a political vacuum which will be filled by the anti-Christ. Israel will go ahead and build the temple which will spark conflict with its neighbors. Jesus will indeed return after the Temple is rebuilt, and will start his Millenial Reign.

For now though, I believe the evidence supports the belief that the 4 Seals are open. Interesting stuff the more you look into it. It is not only interesting, but, as we study what our fathers did during WWII and the events leading to the re-establishment of Israel, it gives us pause to appreciate all the sacrifice by our fore fathers.

Arn

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: There is nothing wrong with the KJV and I learned on it as a child. I currently use the NIV for more uptodate wording. Arn

I hope you realize there are over 30 verses missing from the NIV version along with words that have been completely altered to the point of having alternate meanings.
just saying.

To the original post... though Adolf Hitler, and WWII were close... it still isn't the time... trust me.

If you read what I have written, I have not mentioned Adolf Hitler. He is one of the players, and he was the architect of the circumstances leading to the re-establishing of the State of Israel, but, he was not the Anti-Christ, and was not the major player in the opening of the seals.

I don't see him as that important in terms of the opening of the seals, although he was an integral player in the outcome.

The fallacy of our age is to believe that the prophecies are going to come at some future date, to our children's children, and not to us. From what I have read, we close our eyes to recent history at our peril.

With regard to the KJV vs. the NIV, if you read the scriptures I have quoted, either version will tell you the same thing. I don't intend to argue the merits of either. That is a whole separate discussion.

Is there any denying that 25% of the surface of the earth was involved in World War II? Is there any denying that the British Empire sought to dominate the whole globe, or that Marxism was intent on Total World Domination? And is there any doubt that millions of people have starved to death in the past century, been killed by violence, killed by disease and wild animals?

I reiterate. If it walks like a duck..........

Arn

has anyone watch jack van impe tv show its about the end times, scares the **** out of me because it makes sense and fallow the bible word for word and is stuff that is happening this very day. they have a website too its jvim.com. and their is only a couple prophecies yet to come. Arns hope u look into it. peace.

quote Originally posted by farming for fieros: has anyone watch jack van impe tv show its about the end times, scares the **** out of me because it makes sense and fallow the bible word for word and is stuff that is happening this very day. they have a website too its jvim.com. and their is only a couple prophecies yet to come. Arns hope u look into it. peace.

Jack Van Impe is a very credible teacher of prophecy. Another is Irvin Baxter. He is currently teaching a series about the end times, the anti-christ and his relationship with religion on the Daystar Network.

Two things that WWII did were to place a larger percentage of the world's population under one government (communism) by placing eastern Europe under the control of Russia. China was made vulnerable for communist takeover by Japan. When Japan surrendered, most of Mao's work was done. By 1949, 50% of the world's population was under communism.

Prophecy teaches that peoples under the emblem of the bear (Russia?) and the "Kings of the East" will join battle at Armageddon. China is searching for oil in every corner of the world and Israel has just discovered a huge deposit of natural gas.

A good read on the alliance of these two adversaries.

Another
China and the Kings of the East

Secondly, the affects of WWII on Europe's Jews brought about the founding of a homeland for them. Jesus' statement about the fig tree, in Matthew 24, was sets the time (season) when these things begin to happen and that the witnessing generation would not pass until "all these things be fulfilled".

quote 32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

We are very near!

[This message has been edited by texasfiero (edited 01-10-2011).]

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[This message has been edited by Doni Hagan (edited 01-10-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Doni Hagan: ......Mister Rogers.

No, that guy's no longer with us - the TRUE antichrist is this guy:
<--- note: he is hidden, it may be best NOT to click on him, it only gives him more power!!!

[This message has been edited by FieroRumor (edited 01-10-2011).]

Allot of us view Preachers of one stripe or another as having the answer. They may or may not. What most of us do not do is think for ourselves. We read something and think "that sounds about right" and hang our hat on it.

There are few of us who independently study and form independent opinions.

What I am posting is not main stream in nature. It is an observation that I have not taken from Preachers I have heard. However, I had a hunch about something and followed up on it. I found out that the more I looked the more my hunch was proving correct.

When Prophecies are fulfilled, they aren't fulfilled numerous times. In the case of the Seals, once open, they are active. This is the reason that when you confirm that WWII fulfilled all the requirements of the 4th Seal for the first time in history (about 2000 years) it falls to reason to look at what has transpired in the past century.

There is little doubt that the World, before 1917, had never seen anything like Communism. Fascism largely was a reaction to Communism, and the Nationalism of Germany was a reaction to their humiliation in 1918. You really cannot take a local war on its own to prove a world prophecy.

If you look at the great conquerers of mankind, including Alexander, Gengis Khan, Napolean, and Hitler, none of them were a world movement. Certainly Alexander and Gengis didn't know about North America, let alone have aspirations to dominate it.

It was not until the Marxist Crede that you see a world movement with world wide aspirations, apart from the British Empire with its "the sun never sets on the British Empire" point of view.

What is clear though, the world had not been free of war since the end of the 19th century. We also know that the percentage of the world in dire straights is high. And none of us can go to bed at night being totally satisfied that nothing bad is going to happen. There is no such thing as World Peace.

The next big thing we are going to see, in my view, is not World War III or nuclear war. It is the sky darkening and world wide earthquakes with meteor showers coming down. That will herald the 6th seal. I've tried to show that the 4th Seal is open. The return of Jesus is in the offing. IMHO.

Arn

So, are you expecting December 21, 2012 to be the big deal that the I-Ching and the Mayan long-count calendar both suggest?

Nope.

Arn

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: Nope. Arn

you know I really really wish all the christians would go away
that would be real neat
but this fairy tale is not cumming true
and just like david K and his machine gun branch
fools who believe this are a clear and present danger both to themselves and others
look how the study of the seals ended for david K and his cult
get a safer hobby like street racing

Ray, you are going to love the antichrist. He will share your desire to make christians disapear in the name of peace and love. Classic liberalism.

Page 3 is mine this means the end of the thread! (Page 3 of the mobile version anyhow.)

[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 01-12-2011).]

Getting rid of all Christians? In the middle East, where they do violence in the name of religion, yes. But it seems to me that 99% of other Christians aren't doing any real harm. How about we get rid of all the people who prefer Coke over Pepsi? Makes about as much sense as getting rid of all the Christians.

quote Originally posted by ray b: you know I really really wish all the christians would go away that would be real neat

don't worry, your wish will most likely come true.

David Koresh was a nut. A dangerous one at that. When Jesus returns, it won't be about drinking the cool-aid.

Arn

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: The next big thing we are going to see, in my view, is not World War III or nuclear war. It is the sky darkening and world wide earthquakes with meteor showers coming down. That will herald the 6th seal. I've tried to show that the 4th Seal is open. The return of Jesus is in the offing. IMHO. Arn

So, you believe there are ACTUAL 'seals'?

The Apostle John saw something he called Seals which he said were opened as he watched. That is all he said.

There is an open question as to the nature of the Seals. What do they seal? A box? We don't know. And, I certainly could only speculate.

We can only say for certain what we see. The rest is a matter of faith.

We know that a quarter of the earth's land mass was involved in WWII. I am convinced that around that time the number of people affected by plague and famine reached that level. It is now closer to 50% of the earth.

I am convinced that a movement called the Communist System tried unsuccessfully to take over the world.

I am told that the majority of Christians in the world live in a state of uncertainty, threats to their health and well being, in famine conditions, etc. and that large numbers have been murdered in the past century.

These are all a matter of public record. It is not even debatable unless you really do believe that the world can be viewed through rose colored glasses and that everything is gladness and light.

We have Holocaust deniers today, even though there is photographic evidence posted on the Net. We have folks who do not know aboout Mao, Stalin, and Hitler. Some folks don't care to know and some folks don't bother to find out. I guess some of us are not in that group.

Arn

http://www.revelationbiblep...org/revelation6.html

Revelation 6:7-8 “And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. 8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell [Hades] followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.”

Fourth beast say, come and see - When Christ opens the fourth seal, once again one of the Cherubim from around the throne of God, invites John to come and see what is to take place under this seal.

A pale horse - Once again we have a different coloured horse and thus a different type of warfare. The word pale comes from the Greek word ‘chloros’, which means green or greenish. This colour is deadly as it is the colour that is the token of the approach of death. This is a good description of the time period of papal supremacy (when they had gained full supremacy of the stately/political power in 538 A.D.) until the reformation begun in 1517. It was sickly and repulsive.

Death and hell - The word hell means the grave. During this time when the apostate church was supreme, there were over 5,000,000 of the true and faithful believers slaughtered. And it was during this time that the inquisition was set up. Spiritual death came from the suppression of the scriptures, and literal death came to those that opposed the apostate church.

Fourth part of the earth - It is said that the Papacy ruled a quarter of the then known world.

Kill...sword, hunger, death, beasts of the earth - Here is outlined how the faithful were persecuted. Whether it be by the sword, starvation, the sentence of death, or the beasts of the earth, the papacy used all to accomplish its objective. This was repulsive in the eyes of God.

Time period for the pale horse 538-1517 A.D.

[This message has been edited by Gokart Mozart (edited 01-11-2011).]

there were 4 john's
john the B who wrote NOTHING we have today
john of the letters who may be a follower of JC
the gostic gospel writer who is not the same writing style as the letter writter
and who's gospel contradicts the other 3 gospels in event order and timing
and who's religion is not the same as the paulists
and was the last to be written at around 90 ace

and finally john of patmos who's writing style does not match the letters or the G writers
and who's book is written about 130 ace much too late to be a real time follower of JC

The Vatican could be said to control 1/4 of the known world, although Constantinople was pretty big, and the Catholic countries had kings. The Chinese Dynasty probably controlled as much or more.

The Revelation does not talk about the known world. It talks about the earth. That is understood to be the land mass, and not the seas. Alexander conquered most of the known world, but he did not know about most of China, Russia, and the America's, let alone the extent of Africa.

When you start talking symbolism instead of fact, you get into problem territory. Symbols can be argued ad nosium. The facts are much harder to argue.

For instance, if you talk about the whole earth, the only war event that encompassed 1/4 of the land mass of the earth was World War II.

When allot of the Bible commentary was written, even in the 1800's, the writers relied on interpretation, symbols, and the like because they did not have a historical context to understand the issues. They had not yet seen the struggle for World Domination by Communism or even global Islam. Sure there were wars, and continental wars at that, but not a world wide cataclysm like occurred in the 1940's.

If you look at something like Matthew Henry's commentary, (I own a set) you will see that although he was very knowledgeable, the era in which he wrote did not afford him the historical information he needed to understand future events that our parents have witnessed first hand.

This is also the reason I don't comment on the later chapters in Revelation. When the times unfold the folks in those times will understand it. Example the Anti-Christ; I don't think we'll be able to identify him until after Jesus returns.

We know that Israel was re-constituted in 1948. That was a fulfilled prophecy
We know that Israel has plans to reconstruct the Temple but has not done so due to fear of Muslim reprisal
We know that World War II encompassed 1/4 of the earth, but also a huge area of the oceans and seas.
We know that starting early in the century at least 1/4 of the earth was being affected by famine and disease

I chose not to visit the interpretations of the past that chose to view the Pope, or Charlemagne, or any other ancient leader as the Anti-Christ or the Beast. What I am saying is that if you read the description of the 4th seal, you see it fulfilled in it's entirety in the 1940's.

Either way, if either is correct, the outcome is the same. Jesus is returning soon. Thanks for the discussion

Arn

quote Originally posted by ray b: you know I really really wish all the christians would go away that would be real neat

You will get your wish soon, ray, but you won't find the circumstances afterward to be neat.

quote Originally posted by Isolde: But it is mistaken. Noone will be spared the 3.5 years of tribulation, save those who die before or during it, and likewise the following 3.5 years of great tribulation. The rapture follows the 7 years, rather than preceeding it.

The Rapture has to take place before the Great Tribulation starts. See Lot and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Genesis 19:22
New International Version (©1984)
But flee there quickly, because I cannot do anything until you reach it." (That is why the town was called Zoar.)

The angels could not destroy Sodom while Lot was there. Lot was a righteous man, so he was not to be punished with the wicked. Same with the Rapture and Tribulation. Our sins have been judged in Jesus at Calvary. We will not be judged and punished for them ever again. Since the Tribulation is God's judgement of the people on earth for rejecting Him, the Christians will not be here. Rapture first, then the revealing of the Antichirst, then the Great Tribulation.

If you talk about World War II as having fulfilled the 4th seal, it stands to reason that the 3rd seal is open too.

The 3rd Seal talks about "A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!"

The common interpretation of this passage speaks generally to world hunger while luxuries abound. It is therefore arguable that in Asia, Africa, and parts of North and South America, hunger and want abound often in the midst of plenty.

Today our world is home to 6.6 billion people. The World Health Organization estimates that one-third of the world is well-fed, one-third is under-fed and one-third is starving. Further information is available on the websites of the WHO, Unesco, World Vision, and other organizations which confirms this information

"The world produces enough food to feed everyone. World agriculture produces 17 percent more calories per person today than it did 30 years ago, despite a 70 percent population increase. This is enough to provide everyone in the world with at least 2,720 kilocalories (kcal) per person per day (FAO 2002, p.9). The principal problem is that many people in the world do not have sufficient land to grow, or income to purchase, enough food.

http://www.worldhunger.org/...r%20facts%202002.htm

Of course World data is hard to come by from the "dirty 30's" but we know that there was massive world hunger at that time also. There is a good read though at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression but a search on the Great Depression gives a wealth of data which, when referenced, paints a picture of massive hunger and starvation at that time.

The thing about the Seals prophecy is that it is linear and continuous in nature. There is no ending shown of the seal once it is open. The world we live in is a testament to all the Seals predict. The closer you look the more it is obvious.

Arn

quote Originally posted by heybjorn: The Rapture has to take place before the Great Tribulation starts. See Lot and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Genesis 19:22 New International Version (©1984) But flee there quickly, because I cannot do anything until you reach it." (That is why the town was called Zoar.) The angels could not destroy Sodom while Lot was there. Lot was a righteous man, so he was not to be punished with the wicked. Same with the Rapture and Tribulation. Our sins have been judged in Jesus at Calvary. We will not be judged and punished for them ever again. Since the Tribulation is God's judgement of the people on earth for rejecting Him, the Christians will not be here. Rapture first, then the revealing of the Antichirst, then the Great Tribulation.

There can't be any rapture before the tribulation, because scripture tells us that none can escape. Now, which verse was that in? I'll have to go look.

Quite correct that none can escape the Tribulation, however, we are told of those who will be protected by God.

And, they are not "escaping" they are,however, protected. As Heybjorn pointed out, the principle is the same as the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. The wrath of God comes directed not at the followers of Christ who have been removed, but at those who are on the earth at the time.

However, read the 7th Seal. The church, seen before the throne of God is referred to as having come out of tribulation. They have suffered.

Hope this clarifies.

Again, though, remember the point of the discussion is the historical evidence to support the belief that the 4th Seal prophecy has been fulfilled in the events of the 1940's.

Arn

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: Quite correct that none can escape the Tribulation, however, we are told of those who will be protected by God. And, they are not "escaping" they are,however, protected. As Heybjorn pointed out, the principle is the same as the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. The wrath of God comes directed not at the followers of Christ

Agreed.

quote Originally posted by Isolde: There can't be any rapture before the tribulation, because scripture tells us that none can escape. Now, which verse was that in? I'll have to go look.

there canNOT be a rapture before after or during a made up non event that will never happen

that is too bad as disappearing christians would be a good thing
esp the nuts who believe this foolishness
and if they take the nut believing jews and moslems with them so much the better

a quick study finds many date setters from JC 's ''own many in this generation ''
to others in the very resent past
but not even a false hope like this one will go away
each time they just push back the date, and when their new dates fails again and again
they just say comming soon

Ok then Ray, you've read the prophecy quoted above, and you've read the description of World War II as it relates to the specifics of the prophecy.

So if it is all bunk, what part of that prophecy has not been fulfilled?

Arn

quote Originally posted by ray b: there canNOT be a rapture before after or during a made up non event that will never happen

Then why does it bother you, ray? Why do you put time and effort into something you are sure doesn't exist?

Oh, for fracks sakes..........

Pick any religion, any belief system you want........

And google "failed prophesies" and "failed predictions" when it comes to the end. EVERY SINGLE ONE

They all have one thing in common......even those from thousands of years before christianity......

FAIL......they all fail.

Beleive what you want in your own life...but based on evidence, historic fact, and the fact that God didnt kill Jim Baker--I call bullshit on prophesy

Several hundred billion people over thousands of years have gone to thier graves believing and waiting on prophesies that didnt happen......yet not one ever thought to question thier gods and thier priests and thier books.

[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 01-15-2011).]

the key is be as vague as possable
set no date
give no exact discription

kill by sword hardly a minor cause of death in WW2
a real prediction would have bombs and artillery not swords
swords are so tooo many centurys ago
famine and plague people always starve and get sick in wars
but little mass starvation or no real plague in WW2 like a black death
not feeding people in camps is NOT famine
nor is disease in camps a general plague
ww1 was worse with the spanish flu
and many more were hungry POST WW2 then during [germany]

and crocks and sharks are water animals not of the earth
and again a few minor cases not wide spread

in general close but no cigar

quote Originally posted by ray b: the key is be as vague as possable set no date give no exact discription

The 25% figure has not been achieved in close to 2000 years. And the first time it is achieved, within a matter of 3 years, Israel is re-constituted, also fulfilling a long standing prophecy. Doesn't kind of defy coincidence?

quote kill by sword hardly a minor cause of death in WW2 a real prediction would have bombs and artillery not swords swords are so tooo many centurys ago

Being killed by the sword, in their term of reference was to be killed by any weapon. It referred to warfare, not the weapon

quote famine and plague people always starve and get sick in wars but little mass starvation or no real plague in WW2 like a black death

Absolutely true, and true enough in the 1940's also.

During the Sino-Japanese war from 1937 to 1945, the Japanese used biological warfare against the Chinese. These included plague fleas infected with Cholera and Anthrax. Typhus, a famous pandemic, is well documented during World War II, and was rampant throughout Europe during the war years.

quote not feeding people in camps is NOT famine nor is disease in camps a general plague ww1 was worse with the spanish flu and many more were hungry POST WW2 then during [germany]

You refer to the black death as a plague, but, most plagues are not black death. The fact is that plagues did occur during WWII and have been increasing since. For instance, aids, and dengue fever

quote and crocks and sharks are water animals not of the earth and again a few minor cases not wide spread

The prophesy does not say that 25% of the earth is affected by each thing separately, it speaks of the factors in combination reaching 25%. While it is true a shark is a fish, a croc is a mammal. Wild animal attacks have been around before during and since WWII, but, they were present during WWII as always.

quote in general close but no cigar

You can disregard the facts if you like. That is your prerogative.

Arn