Cliff, that is bad We are at 1.55euros a litre, which hurts too but 2 euros a litre? We were at 87 cents a litre not that long ago..nearly doubled in 3 years But can you clarify one thing? Is this as a result of Government tax increases on fuel...or simply the Fuel Companies setting a level to collect as much revenue over the Summer season as possible? Seasonal prices are becoming the norm here too, and hurts our economy more than anything
IP: Logged
10:26 AM
avengador1 Member
Posts: 35467 From: Orlando, Florida Registered: Oct 2001
This makes our $4 a gallon price seem cheap, but we will catch up to Europes prices real quick if the present administration has it's way. There are things going on in our country that will get us there pretty quickly. Here is an email I received today on this subject.
quote
This comes from a retired oil executive who spent some 40 years in the industry.
Mass Exodus US Oil Refineries.
The Closure Of The U.S.Oil Refinery Industry In The Past 2 Years
In 2010, there were 149 operable U.S.refineries with a combined capacity of 17.6 million barrels (2,800,000) per day. Something odd started happening in late 2010-early 2011. The USoil refinery industry quietly announced the closure of numerous USoil refineries. Many are completely unaware the USships oil overseas to be processed. We do so as we do not have enough refineries to process the vast amounts here, and we are barred from building anymore refineries. All refineries perform three basic steps: separation, conversion, and treatment. Pretty simple.
Several reasons include technical and economic factors as to why we ship it overseas to be processed.
1. The crude petroleum is sold to the highest bidder, NOT the nearest bidder
2. There are different kinds of crude oil, such as sweet/light and dark/heavy. They have different applications and uses.
3. Different kinds of refining processes are needed to make different products from the crude oil. Petroleum is processed to make lots of products other than gasoline, like plastics and asphalt.
4. Politics, unions and the "environmentalists"
How many of you are aware Sunoco, Conoco Phillips and The HESS Corp are all closing USoil refineries? Not many, as the media refuses to give this HUGE story coverage. My guess is that if Americans understood the complete truth to how we are being sold out, and enslaved there just might be the much needed revolution to turn this country around.
Last September, both Sunoco & Conoco Phillips announced plant closings, effecting thousands of workers. Sunoco announced they are completely getting out of the oil industry. Closing up shop. They are done with the US oil industry.
Sunoco is closing it's 2 oil refineries in July 2012 in Philadelphiaand Marcus Hook, Pa. Those 2 facilities alone process over 500,000 barrels a day.
Also announced last year, ConocoPhillips announced 2 plant closing for sure in Trainer, PA and Bayway, NJ., the other 3 plants are undecided as of today.
Just a week ago, the US3rd largest oil refinery owned and operated by The HESS Corp just announced it's permanent closure. Costing over 2,000 jobs, and effecting 950 contractors:
Refineries on the East Coast of the USsupply 40% of the gasoline sales and 60% of the diesel and other fuel oils.
Of that, HALF that comes from the Sunoco & Conoco Phillips plant closures.
When Conoco Phillips announced that it was closing the Trainer refinery, Willie Chiang, then ConocoPhillips' Senior Vice President of Refining, Marketing, Transportation and Commercial, noted that their decision to sell, like Sunoco's, was based on unfavorable economics caused by a competitive and difficult mark et environment characterized by "...product imports, weakness in motor fuel demand, and costly regulatory requirements."
They are ALL closing up shop due to government regulations, union demands and excessive operating costs brought on by the Government regulations.
Then you have the unions, led by Barry's buddy Leo Gerard saying they will close ALL US oil refineries starting from the east coast to west coast today.
The unions are shutting down ports, rail and air across the pond right now......the SAME EXACT thing they plan on doing here. When the ships stop importing, the rails & air stop delivering....how much is everything you consume gonna cost? Remember...we are a CONSUMING country, no longer a producing one.
The excessive and costly government regulations on the USoil refinery mark et has forced companies to re-evaluate the cost of doing business in the US ..
Why have operations in the USwhere you bleed money via regulations & demands, when you can have refineries built in Columbia , Mexico or Brazil for pennies on the dollar, and less regulations?
It's all business America ...nothing personal.
Besides.....your government is giving BILLIONS to Columbia and Brazilto build refineries to process all that oil the US is losing.
We are building up every country on earth, while destroying our own....all in the name of redistribution of wealth.
I covered some of these "deals" Barry inked in my previous note:
You do the math. When the USoil refineries finally close up shop, who will process all that oil....and how much do YOU think that oil will cost when it's ALL processed over seas?
Think gas and energy costs are high right now.......wait 6 months. You haven't seen anything yet.
How can anyone expect any company to do business with an anti-American, hostile government out of control? You can't. That is why we are seeing a mass exodus, across the board in every industry in the US LEAVING.
We just hit a new all time high gas price here in the Netherlands). One gallon of unleaded gas is now $9.92.
(We pay €2.00 per liter. One US gallon is 3.78541178 liter. €1 = $1.31)
It would cost me over $400 to fill my truck at those prices. I need at least 1 tank a week but up to 3 quite frequently. I am not sure how common commuting is over there, but in my state taking the bus or other public transportation means is basically a non-option. It would probably take me over an hour to get to work if I decided to bike. I don't pay for fuel or my vehicle, so it is all irrelevant, but that is scary to think of.
[This message has been edited by ls3mach (edited 04-13-2012).]
Whining about EU gas price then need to check taxes too... Your comparing apples to oranges...
Many EU countries doubles the price w/ taxes. $9 but how much taxes?
Worse, Canada and Many EU countries use % bases gas taxes. In the US are flat rate gas taxes. Base price of fuel changes so does EU taxes, not in the US. EU & Canada Govmnt love high gas prices because get more taxes. US pays much lower fuel taxes even when base fuel price changes.
Like many thinking EU fuels has better Octane rating... Fuel are not better/worse but EU uses different rules for octane # shown on the pump etc.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
I've been telling people for years that Europeans shake their heads when they hear Americans bitching about gas prices. A friend in Brussels emailed me the same sentiments a couple of days ago. It could be better, certainly....but it could also be much worse. We could be paying what Europe was paying BEFORE this most recent price hike.
Maybe....just maybe.... if we cut back a little on the fiery rhetoric surrounding bombing OPEC nations, global oil speculators will stop hiking up the prices so much.
That might help.
[This message has been edited by Doni Hagan (edited 04-13-2012).]
The sale of fuels in the Netherlands is levied with an excise tax. The 2007 fuel tax was € 0.684 per litre or $ 3.5 per gallon. On top of that is 19% VAT over the entire fuel price, making the Dutch taxes one of the highest in the world. In total, taxes account for 68,84% of the total price of petrol and 56,55% of the total price of diesel. [3] A 1995 excise was raised by Dutch gulden 25 cents (€0.11), the Kok Quarter (€0.08 raise per litre gasoline and €0.03 raise per litre diesel), by then Prime-Minister Wim Kok is now specifically set aside by the second Balkenende cabinet for use in road creation and road and public transport maintenance.
But, that's what the DULY and LEGALLY ELECTED govt officials decreed. They probably have some really nice roads, but whether anyone can afford to drive on them is another question.
IP: Logged
11:30 AM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43226 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
Whining about EU gas price then need to check taxes too... Your comparing apples to oranges...
Many EU countries doubles the price w/ taxes. $9 but how much taxes?
Worse, Canada and Many EU countries use % bases gas taxes. In the US are flat rate gas taxes. Base price of fuel changes so does EU taxes, not in the US. EU & Canada Govmnt love high gas prices because get more taxes. US pays much lower fuel taxes even when base fuel price changes.
Like many thinking EU fuels has better Octane rating... Fuel are not better/worse but EU uses different rules for octane # shown on the pump etc.
Which was why I asked Cliff specifically if the rise was by the Oil Companies, or a tax hike...of course, as the price rises via Oil Company hikes, so too does the tax revenue to the Government...which is AGAIN why governments and Oil Companies are in each others' beds Nick
IP: Logged
12:10 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43226 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
/\ having thought about it a little more ..is this a fairer way to collect taxes from the majority of ALL adults (work-capable )? After all, even the unemployed and people solely on benefits mostly use a car at some time, if not all the time. Just imagine if they tried to collect the equivalent amount of taxes this brings in by income tax etc...that would penalise ONLY the people with jobs, wouldn't it? The other alternative would be to add extra to sales tax to ' get' everybody, which would cause greater hardships than expensive travel? Maybe it could be considered a fairer way..or not
IP: Logged
03:02 PM
Blacktree Member
Posts: 20770 From: Central Florida Registered: Dec 2001
Originally posted by Doni Hagan: Maybe....just maybe.... if we cut back a little on the fiery rhetoric surrounding bombing OPEC nations, global oil speculators will stop hiking up the prices so much.
Maybe we could re-direct the fiery rhetoric (and the bombs) toward the oil speculators.
/\ having thought about it a little more ..is this a fairer way to collect taxes from the majority of ALL adults (work-capable )? After all, even the unemployed and people solely on benefits mostly use a car at some time, if not all the time. Just imagine if they tried to collect the equivalent amount of taxes this brings in by income tax etc...that would penalise ONLY the people with jobs, wouldn't it? The other alternative would be to add extra to sales tax to ' get' everybody, which would cause greater hardships than expensive travel? Maybe it could be considered a fairer way..or not
The lesser evil to be would be higher sales tax to me, as I can control what I buy to some extent. Fuel costs I must pay to get to work, to heat my home. Fuel is used to get groceries to the store which we pay more for now becuase the truckers can't afford to ship it cheaper because of fuel prices. etc.
I've always been a fan of tax what you buy, not even your income. But a world economy throws that for a loop too.
IP: Logged
03:20 PM
Mickey_Moose Member
Posts: 7509 From: Edmonton, AB, Canada Registered: May 2001
Originally posted by fierofetish:/\ having thought about it a little more ..is this a fairer way to collect taxes from the majority of ALL adults (work-capable )? After all, even the unemployed and people solely on benefits mostly use a car at some time, if not all the time. Just imagine if they tried to collect the equivalent amount of taxes this brings in by income tax etc...that would penalise ONLY the people with jobs, wouldn't it? The other alternative would be to add extra to sales tax to ' get' everybody, which would cause greater hardships than expensive travel? Maybe it could be considered a fairer way..or not
Not exactly. People in big cities have an economic advantage. I have a friend in Montana that has to travel 35 miles to the nearest store, there is no bus. In fairness tho, this could be a way for the rich to force the economically disadvantaged into population centers. A more fair tax is consumption tax, all that is purchased.
I moved into a population center because I wanted to become rich and the best way I figured to do that is to have the poor pay me to become rich and I need a lot of poor to do that(rental income).
Cliff, the best way I can come up with to minimize the pain of the high gas price is to figure out how to buy less of it. Do you have CNG option?
Not exactly. People in big cities have an economic advantage. I have a friend in Montana that has to travel 35 miles to the nearest store, there is no bus. In fairness tho, this could be a way for the rich to force the economically disadvantaged into population centers. A more fair tax is consumption tax, all that is purchased.
I moved into a population center because I wanted to become rich and the best way I figured to do that is to have the poor pay me to become rich and I need a lot of poor to do that(rental income).
Cliff, the best way I can come up with to minimize the pain of the high gas price is to figure out how to buy less of it. Do you have CNG option?
Yes they do...but they also suffer the economic DISadvantage of paying much higher prices for properties, property taxes, etc etc. Balances out a bit if you look at it that way..
IP: Logged
04:08 PM
spark1 Member
Posts: 11159 From: Benton County, OR Registered: Dec 2002
I've always been a fan of tax what you buy, not even your income. But a world economy throws that for a loop too.
The price you pay for a product includes all the taxes paid by everyone involved in producing, transporting and marketing it. Those taxes are hidden and in all but 5 states, you also pay sales tax on those taxes.
IP: Logged
06:09 PM
Uaana Member
Posts: 6570 From: Robbinsdale MN US Registered: Dec 1999
But after reading a little more, and dipping my head into reddit for a few.. Europeans also like to sneer at us mouth breathing Muricans because we don't have free healthcare, an awesome train system, more holidays, earlier retirement, and the list goes on. The VAT rate went up across the better part of the EU on Jan 1 as well..
So not to be overly political.. With all of these great benefits, and superior standard of living.. Why is half of the EU either in default, or about to go under? I'm almost surprised Germany hasn't bolted... But then they have some serious guilt issues and the thought of going independent is almost an anathema to them now.
IP: Logged
07:31 PM
Apr 16th, 2012
2.5 Member
Posts: 43226 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
The price you pay for a product includes all the taxes paid by everyone involved in producing, transporting and marketing it. Those taxes are hidden and in all but 5 states, you also pay sales tax on those taxes.
I agree, and it is more proof that we are over taxed, and double taxed. Our system does seem to work better than other countries, but only because we constantly fight increases.
quote
Originally posted by FriendGregory: Not exactly. People in big cities have an economic advantage. I have a friend in Montana that has to travel 35 miles to the nearest store, there is no bus. In fairness tho, this could be a way for the rich to force the economically disadvantaged into population centers. A more fair tax is consumption tax, all that is purchased.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 04-16-2012).]
IP: Logged
12:21 PM
Cliff Pennock Administrator
Posts: 11653 From: Zandvoort, The Netherlands Registered: Jan 99
Europeans also like to sneer at us mouth breathing Muricans because we don't have free healthcare, an awesome train system, more holidays, earlier retirement, and the list goes on.
Actually, not all Europeans. In fact only the left does that.
We don't have free healthcare at all (never have), our train system sucks (as it does in most European countries), we do have more holidays (which is awesome) but the retirement age has just been raised (currently 67 in the Netherlands) in most European countries.
IP: Logged
03:35 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43226 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
...and here I am whinning about paying CAN$1.18 per liter here in Alberta - must be that dirty oil.
Drive a couple of hours west and see 1.43/l in Vancouver right now.
Of course, they just added .02c/l to fund a new train line to a suburb, and have been increasing our carbon taxes over the past few years to motivate us to take public transit..but then increase the costs of public transit, thus negating that benefit.
IP: Logged
03:55 PM
banditbalz Member
Posts: 2070 From: Barrie Ontario Canada Registered: May 2000
We just hit a new all time high gas price here in the Netherlands). One gallon of unleaded gas is now $9.92.
(We pay €2.00 per liter. One US gallon is 3.78541178 liter. €1 = $1.31)
wow... gas here in Ontario is only $1.42 for mid grade. I guess that makes it $5.38/gallon. It costs me $90 to fill up my G35 yesterday and it wasnt even on empty!
IP: Logged
11:18 PM
Apr 17th, 2012
Shyster Member
Posts: 1085 From: Conroe, TX, USA Registered: Aug 2005
Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: our train system sucks (as it does in most European countries)
?Huh? Cliff, don't say that, you will disillusion me. I'll admit that most the trains I've ridden were in France, so I cannot speak for most European countries, but I've been on trains in the UK, The Netherlands, Germany, and Belgium. Oh, and there was the tram up to Obersaltzburg, so technically, Austria, but that's not really the same thing.
Now, I can admit that I have some concerns about the railroads' scheduling. When we headed to Germany & Austria last September, we thought about trying to pop over to Italy, as well, but a day (or a day-and-a-half) lost in each direction was too much to bear.
And though I can see where multi-day rail passes work, we were better off renting a car (and paying the local fuel prices), than we would have been by paying EuroRail pass prices and having limited mobility at our destinations.
But for the most part, my experience with European rail systems has been very positive. You go up to the train, put your luggage in the luggage bin, sit in your seat until you arrive at your destination, recover your luggage from the luggage bin, and go on your way. I've never been asked to remove the contents of my pockets, or parts of my clothing, at a European rail station, merely for the privilege of utilizing the ticket I paid good, green money for.
Maybe you have a different perspective than I do, but for the most part, I like your trains, so I'm surprised that you think they suck. So my question is, what is it about the European train system do you dislike so much? I'm just wondering,
Originally posted by Toddster: Now that explains the VESPA!
Hahaha.
The Govt takes about 70% as tax here too. This money (along with vehicle tax) is certainly not being reinvested in the road infrastructure. I have been left with no choice but to restrict my fuel useage! Despite living in the middle of nowhere, with no public transport that we are being encouraged to use, several tasks need to be combined before a trip can take place. Work and leisure activities need to be combined to justify fuel expenditure. Cheques that were driven a 40mile round trip to the nearest bank are now either deposited through a hole in the wall on the way back from a trip or cycled to the bank, or given to someone else to pay in when they plan a trip. Hobbies like Fiero and motorcycles become more fettling based and less time spent driven/ridden. Over that past few years I have probably halved my mileage taking some reasonably painless steps. The costs to my business however have been painful. For example, due to fuel costs (and I'm sure other factors) the cost of a postage stamp will rise 30% next month!!!
Trains don't suck in Europe? Yeah maybe the western part is doing better. Come to Poland. I guarantee you will never forget our trains.
We currently pay about $7 per gallon. But then again we make far less money than the western Europe. Minimum wage is currently at about $430. And the national average is about $1000. So yeah do the math not much roaring V8 sounds on the road.
[This message has been edited by cebix (edited 04-17-2012).]
IP: Logged
04:19 AM
Cliff Pennock Administrator
Posts: 11653 From: Zandvoort, The Netherlands Registered: Jan 99
Maybe you have a different perspective than I do, but for the most part, I like your trains, so I'm surprised that you think they suck. So my question is, what is it about the European train system do you dislike so much? I'm just wondering,
Where to start...
First of all, there are not enough trains during commuting hours. Meaning if you use the train to go to work, you are packed like sardines in a can. Do that every day and you'll understand why we have the busiest roads in the world during those hours (it's not uncommon to have over 25% of our total highway network jammed with traffic).
Trains never go on time. Never. Meaning you always miss your connection.
As soon as one snowflake falls from the sky, most of the train network fails because switches no longer work due to ice. This past winter was the third year in a row where we had massive problems with snow and ice.
Traintickets are very expensive. It is cheaper to take the car than it is to take the train - especially if you travel with a group.
Trains are dirty. No seriously, really, really dirty.
A lot of the trains (especially the newer ones) have no toilets. Honest. If you need to pee badly, you can request a peeing bag from the conductor. No idea what they expect you to do if you need to go for "number two". Seriously. This is a modern western country and they expect you to pee in a bag.
Trainstations suck. They are beautiful because they are hundreds of years old, but they can't handle the huge number of commuters. In Amsterdam trainstation, they have one small elevator (which fits perhaps 4 people) for each platform. Meaning if you are an elderly person, or travel with a baby stroller, wheelchair or you are handicapped, the only way for you to reach the platform is by using this tiny elevator. Now that isn't all that bad you say? Let me elaborate. All platforms on Amsterdam trainstation are between 600 and 1000 feet long. They are split up in three. Most trains arrive at one end of the platform. Guess where the elevators are? Correct. At the other far end of the platform. So again, if you are an elderly person, or travel with a baby stroller, you are in a wheelchair or are otherwise handicapped, getting from one platform to another takes between 10-30 minutes. Even if where you need to be is only 30 feet away (because you have to walk about 2000 feet to get there). Amsterdam trainstation is the busiest trainstation in the Netherlands.
Now I've traveled by train in other countries as well. They suck just as much. Perhaps even more.
The only good way to travel by train are those international trains. Those that travel from country to country. But they are incredibly expensive. In fact, flying is often cheaper.
IP: Logged
05:23 AM
Apr 18th, 2012
Shyster Member
Posts: 1085 From: Conroe, TX, USA Registered: Aug 2005
Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: Where to start...
Thanks for the review. Guess we were lucky in Amsterdam. Got in to Schiphol mid-afternoon, took the train to Centraal, and a cab from there to the hotel. Wasn't glamorous, but wasn't the worst I've ever been on, either. Turned out we were leaving the morning that the Queen's Day festival was lighting up. (When we scheduled that trip, we had no clue about Queen's Day). Fortunately, we asked the right questions at the right time, or we would have had a hard time getting transport back out to the airport to catch our train to Brussels, and ultimately to Paris (and our flight home).
I'm with you on the overcrowding issues. I've never liked crowds to begin with, and most subways I've ever been on, even at off-peak times, make me uncomfortable. Fortunately, when I've been in Europe, as TBone sarcastically points out, I've had a bit of flexibility about when, and where, to travel.
But seriously, no restrooms?? I could understand this on a subway or very short-haul commuter rail (who'd want to go into the restroom on a subway car, anyway?), but that's not only awful, and disgusting, it's unsanitary.
When we rode the subway/train from Paris to Versailles, it was a somewhat dirty but necessary means of conveyance. OTOH, the TGV from Paris to Avignon was nice, and comfortable (if a bit pricey). Same pretty much for the train from Amsterdam to Brussels, and the TGV from there to Paris.
For me, the main attraction to the European train system is not having some authoritarian twit shout at you for having the gall to walk through a metal detector with your wallet (which contained 100% no metal) in your pocket, simply because it violated some arbitrary (and quite meaningless) rule. It's one of the last remaining bastions of European freedom, and I wonder how long that will last.
IP: Logged
01:01 AM
lurker Member
Posts: 12351 From: salisbury nc usa Registered: Feb 2002
Feel free to correct me on this, but isn't that a hugely popular method of transportation in the Netherlands? After reading Cliff's posts, now I truly understand why!
We are at 1.55euros a litre, which hurts too 
That's freakin' insane...
someone has to pay them to do that.
..is this a fairer way to collect taxes from the majority of ALL adults (work-capable 
