“Taxpayers have spent more than $4 billion on capital punishment in California since it was reinstated in 1978, or about $308 million for each of the 13 executions carried out since then, according to a comprehensive analysis of the death penalty's costs. …Mitchell, also forecast that the tab for maintaining the death penalty will climb to $9 billion by 2030, when San Quentin's death row will have swollen to well over 1,000. ...three options for voters to end the current reality of spiraling costs and infrequent executions: fully preserve capital punishment with about $85 million more in funding for courts and lawyers each year; reduce the number of death penalty-eligible crimes for an annual savings of $55 million; or abolish capital punishment and save taxpayers about $1 billion every five or six years.” http://articles.latimes.com...nalty-costs-20110620
Though I’m sure these numbers are twisted. It doesn’t have to cost so much. Neither does life in prison. Cost is the leading argument it seems against capital punishment. California has an upcoming vote to replace the death penalty with life in prison:
--- Its so strange to me that an option on the table is to reduce the number of crimes that are death penalty eligible. So we will base justice, or the lack of iton the monetary cost of it? Could we not reduce the cost of the system or the execution, before changing penalties due to cost? I suppose down the road we will be shortening prison sentences because we can’t afford to pay for justice? I know it is up to each state. But the reasons sort of bother me.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 07-06-2012).]
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04:00 PM
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NoMoreRicers Member
Posts: 2192 From: Spokane, WA Registered: Mar 2009
When this happened, I knew the lawyers were never going to let anyone get executed under the current law. Rather than reform the court system, people have given up on the death penalty altogether.
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04:22 PM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 23139 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
Without numbers ($) you're not making a particularly compelling argument.
The 2009 federal prison population consisted of:
Drugs 50.7% Public-order 35.0%, Violent 7.9% Property 5.8% Other .7%
The only number I have is 86 percent of prison inmates didn't hurt anybody. I'd say it's safe to assume that they would save money if they didn't have to feed, house, medicate, all those people.
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04:35 PM
rinselberg Member
Posts: 16118 From: Sunnyvale, CA (USA) Registered: Mar 2010
Drugs 50.7% Public-order 35.0%, Violent 7.9% Property 5.8% Other .7%
The only number I have is 86 percent of prison inmates didn't hurt anybody. I'd say it's safe to assume that they would save money if they didn't have to feed, house, medicate, all those people.
Property and public order do need to be protected.
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04:37 PM
NoMoreRicers Member
Posts: 2192 From: Spokane, WA Registered: Mar 2009
Property and public order do need to be protected.
Funny how you left out violence but included public order such as immigration, weapons charges, public drunkenness, selling lemonade without a license, dancing in public, feeding the homeless without a permit etc..
Property and Violence are crimes with victims that need some kind of resolution.
In California in 2009 it cost an average of $47,102 a year to incarcerate an inmate in state prison. In 2005 it cost an average of $23,876 per state prisoner nationally.
There is also an opportunity cost for society as a whole:
quote
When a man is put behind bars he is obviously incapable of contributing anything to society. He becomes a complete burden to society while producing nothing in return for the expenses he creates. He becomes a black void of resource destruction. It’s important to remember that money’s value is directly related to the consumer goods that a society produces. If a society produces nothing of value, the money it uses will also be worth nothing of value. If a huge portion of able bodied workers is locked behind bars, society is effectively penalized twice – once for the resources that are diverted into the prison industry and it is penalized again for the opportunity cost of the lost labor of those prisoners.
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04:46 PM
rinselberg Member
Posts: 16118 From: Sunnyvale, CA (USA) Registered: Mar 2010
So there shouldn't be any laws whatsoever regulating immigration, weapons possession, public drunkenness, dispensing food/drink without a license and doing things (feeding them) that attract the homeless to gather in particular locations..?
And you may say there should be some laws.
What happens when some people repeatedly violate those laws?
Do you have an alternative, other than to jail them?
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04:57 PM
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2.5 Member
Posts: 43226 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
Drugs 50.7% Public-order 35.0%, Violent 7.9% Property 5.8% Other .7%
The only number I have is 86 percent of prison inmates didn't hurt anybody. I'd say it's safe to assume that they would save money if they didn't have to feed, house, medicate, all those people.
Though drug consumption doesn't bring the death penalty. What does that 50.7 percent consist of? Are all of those in jail simply for consuming a drug? I assume that number is not just weed? Do you advise we legalize all drugs?
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05:05 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43226 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
Originally posted by NoMoreRicers: "When a man is put behind bars he is obviously incapable of contributing anything to society. He becomes a complete burden to society while producing nothing in return for the expenses he creates. He becomes a black void of resource destruction. It’s important to remember that money’s value is directly related to the consumer goods that a society produces. If a society produces nothing of value, the money it uses will also be worth nothing of value. If a huge portion of able bodied workers is locked behind bars, society is effectively penalized twice – once for the resources that are diverted into the prison industry and it is penalized again for the opportunity cost of the lost labor of those prisoners."
Thus, as said, put them to work. I agree with forced labor for convicts.
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05:07 PM
NoMoreRicers Member
Posts: 2192 From: Spokane, WA Registered: Mar 2009
So there shouldn't be any laws whatsoever regulating immigration, weapons possession, public drunkenness, dispensing food/drink without a license and doing things (feeding them) that attract the homeless to gather in particular locations..?
Nope.
quote
Originally posted by rinselberg:
And you may say there should be some laws.
What happens when some people repeatedly violate those laws?
Do you have an alternative, other than to jail them?
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05:11 PM
NoMoreRicers Member
Posts: 2192 From: Spokane, WA Registered: Mar 2009
Though drug consumption doesn't bring the death penalty. What does that 50.7 percent consist of? Are all of those in jail simply for consuming a drug? I assume that number is not just weed? Do you advise we legalize all drugs?
The statistics didn't go that far in to detail on which drugs.
I don't advise anybody on anything. I just know that it is immoral to forcibly kidnap somebody and lock them in a metal box for years because they grew a flower in their back yard.
Though drug consumption doesn't bring the death penalty. What does that 50.7 percent consist of? Are all of those in jail simply for consuming a drug? I assume that number is not just weed? Do you advise we legalize all drugs?
All those figures are pretty vague.
I fully support the legalization, or more accurately, decriminalization of all drugs. I think we have had this discussion before. It is the only right thing to do as Americans.
Even one of those horrible drunk drivers everyone loves to hate has committed no crime if he did not damage property or injure anybody. the number of people that drive drunk every day without incident is probably nothing short of staggering (hehehe)
Oh ya, death penalty. California can do what ever they want in this matter a state, that is their right collectively. Me? I go back and forth on this issue. I think the person harmed or next of kin should get to do the killing, using what ever method they choose.
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06:06 PM
Jul 7th, 2012
fierobear Member
Posts: 27083 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
Liberals in Canada got rid of the death penalty - and our so-called "justice system" does not dispense justice for the victims. They moved from punishment to "rehabilitation" and almost think nobody should be in jail at all! You gotta work pretty hard at crime to end up in a Federal Prison in Canada.
Criminals also have more rights and benefits than victims, so while criminals get counciling, university courses, cable TV, 3 meals a day, all medical and dental care FREE etc. etc. etc. (many live better than seniors on government pensions/social security), the victims families are basically told "sorry your kid got killed - get over it".
They also feel building more prisons is too expensive, so basically almost ALL criminals get released back into the public after serving 2/3rds of their sentence (to make room for more thugs) YAY!
Also, sentencing is all over the place. You're could to get a longer sentence for robbery than murder. If you beat up a thug who broke into your house at night, you're likely to spend more time in jail than the thug (assault vs B&E).
Every week, Police warn that so-and-so (rapist, child molester, murderer) is being released (has served his 2/3rds) and "is likely to reoffend" - so people watch out. Does anyone else think something sounds WRONG with that statement???
And in addition, because sentences are concurrent, any murder after the first is "free". eg: They may get 25 years for 1 murder. If they killed 4 people and get 25 years for each, that's NOT 100 years in prison, it's still 25 - he's just in jail "serving time for 4 at once".
AND - there were getting "double credit" for time in jail awaiting trial. So if that took 4 years, and they are found "guilty" and get 10 years, they only spend an additional 2 years in jail (NOT an additional 6), because the judge counts the 4 years already served as 8!! Some lawyers drag out pre-trial for that very reason.
Prime Minister Harper is moving to change all that, REAL time in prison, NO "double credit" for pre-trial time, minimum sentences, reducing parole, changing "self-defence" and "citizen's arrest" rules etc.
And of course, the Liberals are completely up in arms - they see this as a move to "undo all the good they've done over the years (while they were in power).
The death penalty. Why is there even a death roll? People waiting for YEARS to be put to death even when there is absolutly no doubt of what they did. We pay out millions of dollars so that these people can have food, a place to sleep, basketball court, pool, cable TV, ect... when alot of us are scrapping by to make it. These criminals could be caught in the act with DNA proof and admit it but still wait for years to be executed. Why???
If you are going to have the death penalty and its a 110% fact of what they did, Get It Over With Now! Not in 30 Years!
For the people that have Life sentences, Put them on an island somewhere and drop off seeds and supplies so they can make a life for themselves if they wish or they can starve. If they dont like the situation, tuff luck. Should have thought about that sooner.
Why do they put child molestors in a special place so they don't get molested ????? Im not happy with this rule and neither is Big Buba.
Welfare....It sux. I believe it should be for people that are struggling and help them get back on their feet. Not for some woman with 9 kids from 8 different guys. " Spread your legs and drop your eggs" is not a slogan for a government job. I do believe in Child Support from guys that decide " Oh, this baby thing isn't working for me" and skip out. Scum. But I also don't believe in a woman making an income out of it. You ask some of these people if they would like a new Corvette and they would say .... Yes! Why don't you buy one then? I can't afford one. You can't afford all those kids either but that didn't stop you. The earth is WAY over populated now. If you can't support them, don't keep cranking them out! I have been at a food stamp office with my sister in law and seen people with brand new Cadillacs with wheels that cost more than the RV trailer I was living in at that time. WHY??? And I had a job!
You can not move to Costa Rica and get a job. Why? Because their jobs are for their people, not everyone that crosses into their country but you can start a bussiness there which gives them more work. I like that idea. America doesn't. Here in America, you can come into the country and the Government will set you up with a house,car and money to start a bussiness but someone from here without a job but wanting to work and make their own way is out of luck and on the street.
How much money would be saved by doing away with all this crap? Alot I'm sure.
I think they had some good laws to start with but over the years, the whole system has become a runaway freight train and no way to stop it.
Steve
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Jul 9th, 2012
WhiteDevil88 Member
Posts: 8518 From: Coastal California Registered: Mar 2007
"I have been at a food stamp office with my sister in law and seen people with brand new Cadillacs with wheels that cost more than the RV trailer I was living in at that time. WHY??? And I had a job!"
You know, for all of the Cadillacs allegedly parked at the welfare offices all over our nation, you think someone would have a camera and take a picture of one.
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02:57 AM
normsf Member
Posts: 1682 From: mishawaka, In Registered: Oct 2003
Hello, people will vote to abolish the Death penalty ( costs too much now ) but will still vote for the right for abortions. Seems a little ironic to me. Just saying!!
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12:12 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43226 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
Liberals in Canada got rid of the death penalty - and our so-called "justice system" does not dispense justice for the victims. They moved from punishment to "rehabilitation" and almost think nobody should be in jail at all!
Thats where we're headed too at this rate.
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12:41 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
Everything you can think of to punish the accused/guilty has been thought of & tried, in many ways, by many cultures, over many centuries. And still are. Look at how other "less civilized" (or more civilized?) countries are doing it. Has crime gone away? Have they run out of "bad" people?
I think ours is a pretty good answer to a tough question. China thinks theirs is, as do many others. But I prefer ours.
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12:58 PM
htexans1 Member
Posts: 9114 From: Clear Lake City/Houston TX Registered: Sep 2001
The death penalty and the "life" sentence is all about getting even, not justice.
Justice is letting the victim do something back to the perp. And in our "civilized" society that just aint gonna happen.
quote
Originally posted by Boondawg:
Everything you can think of to punish the accused/guilty has been thought of & tried, in many ways, by many cultures, over many centuries. And still are. Look at how other "less civilized" (or more civilized?) countries are doing it. Has crime gone away? Have they run out of "bad" people?
I think ours is a pretty good answer to a tough question. China thinks theirs is, as do many others. But I prefer ours.
Which answer is ours?
To me justice isn't about just a deterrent, or correction, it is what needs to be done to uphold principles / fairness.
To me justice is not revenge. Think about punishing your child.(Outside of capiltal punishment centext ). It is not about revenge.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 07-09-2012).]
(Outside of capiltal punishment) think about punishing your child. It is not about revenge.
No, it's not. It's is about impossing your will (societies/culture?) on your charge, as is expected of you by what you (societiey/culture?) believe. It's about the childs conformity to what is expected of them by you & others (for their own good?).
"If you don't do as you're told (by others), if you don't follow the rules (of others), if you don't toe the line (drawn by others), you will pay by being hurt (physically, mentally, financially, etc.)."
Freedom?
Intellectual thought aside, truth be told:
I am against the Death Penalty, but if you brutally murder my wife, I want you dead. I want to tear you into little pieces with my bare hands. But not out of justice. Out of revenge. I don't want to show you the error of your ways, or stop you from doing it again. Becouse at that point it isn't about you.........OR my wife. It is about me. And my wrath.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 07-09-2012).]
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02:37 PM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 23139 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
"I have been at a food stamp office with my sister in law and seen people with brand new Cadillacs with wheels that cost more than the RV trailer I was living in at that time. WHY??? And I had a job!"
You know, for all of the Cadillacs allegedly parked at the welfare offices all over our nation, you think someone would have a camera and take a picture of one.
This is in front of Government housing in down-town Fort Lauderdale. They have a bunch of these... all paid for by taxes. The people living here don't pay anyting.
There are some mad-wheels on that car.
Here's a nicer picture of the area (no cars in the picture)
I am against the Death Penalty, but if you brutally murder my wife, I want you dead. I want to tear you into little pieces with my bare hands. But not out of justice. Out of revenge. I don't want to show you the error of your ways, or stop you from doing it again. Becouse at that point it isn't about you.........OR my wife. It is about me. And my wrath.
True. Thats why there is a justice system and not just every citizen for themself. The hurt party does many times want revenge. But I don't think that is what the legal justice system is for. It is supposed to rise above angry mobs and revenge killings by citizens.
"intellectal thought aside?"
quote
Originally posted by Boondawg: No, it's not. It's is about impossing your will (societies/culture?) on your charge, as is expected of you by what you (societiey/culture?) believe. It's about the childs conformity to what is expected of them by you & others (for their own good?).
"If you don't do as you're told (by others), if you don't follow the rules (of others), if you don't toe the line (drawn by others), you will pay by being hurt (physically, mentally, financially, etc.)."
Freedom?
What are you saying? It sounds like you say parents should not teach or correct children, because it takes away their freedom? Or are you pointing out that my comparing the two ideas do not jive?
For the most part people choose to be part of a society. Meaning yout town, your county, your state, your country. They chose to be "imposed upon" as you put it, by laws. If we weer allowed to all make our own rules, we'd all have to live on islands alone and sustain ourselves, and be lonely.
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03:55 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43226 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
Why is it some people have such a hard time with revenge? revenge is awsome!
"Revenge or vengeance consists primarily of retaliation against a person or group in response to perceived wrongdoing. Although many aspects of revenge resemble or echo the concept of justice, revenge usually has a more injurious than harmonious goal. The vengeful wish consists of forcing the perceived wrongdoer to suffer pain, injury or constraints"
"The passion for revenge is strong and sometimes almost overwhelming. But our intuitive logic about revenge is often twisted, conflicted, parochial, and dangerous. Revenge is a primitive, destructive, and violent response to anger, injury, or humiliation. It is a misguided attempt to transform shame into pride."
"Revenge originates from the primal need for self-defense. In today's world, it is often abused as a destructive and futile response to anger or humiliation. Why do you believe it is your only alternative? Why do you believe it will be effective? Describe why you believe revenge addresses the cause and will have the effect you want.
Most strategies for revenge fail because they attempt to change the past. Unfortunately once the damage is done and the injury, insult, humiliation, or other loss occurs, the clock cannot be turned back and the loss is permanent. In addition, the value of the loss to the offended is seen as much greater than any benefit gained by the offender. As a result the offense represents an unrecoverable loss to society as a whole. Successful strategies for revenge look far into the future and recognize that the cycle of vengeance and retaliation can only spiral toward tragedy and are best stopped before they are started.
Revenge is a doomed attempt to eliminate shame and increase stature by asserting dominance. It fails because asserting dominance does not increase stature, instead it usually increases violence. Also, remorse cannot be coerced, it has to be discovered."
"Revenge or vengeance consists primarily of retaliation against a person or group in response to perceived wrongdoing. Although many aspects of revenge resemble or echo the concept of justice, revenge usually has a more injurious than harmonious goal. The vengeful wish consists of forcing the perceived wrongdoer to suffer pain, injury or constraints"
"The passion for revenge is strong and sometimes almost overwhelming. But our intuitive logic about revenge is often twisted, conflicted, parochial, and dangerous. Revenge is a primitive, destructive, and violent response to anger, injury, or humiliation. It is a misguided attempt to transform shame into pride."
"Revenge originates from the primal need for self-defense. In today's world, it is often abused as a destructive and futile response to anger or humiliation. Why do you believe it is your only alternative? Why do you believe it will be effective? Describe why you believe revenge addresses the cause and will have the effect you want.
Most strategies for revenge fail because they attempt to change the past. Unfortunately once the damage is done and the injury, insult, humiliation, or other loss occurs, the clock cannot be turned back and the loss is permanent. In addition, the value of the loss to the offended is seen as much greater than any benefit gained by the offender. As a result the offense represents an unrecoverable loss to society as a whole. Successful strategies for revenge look far into the future and recognize that the cycle of vengeance and retaliation can only spiral toward tragedy and are best stopped before they are started.
Revenge is a doomed attempt to eliminate shame and increase stature by asserting dominance. It fails because asserting dominance does not increase stature, instead it usually increases violence. Also, remorse cannot be coerced, it has to be discovered."
Sorry, revenge is awesome, it gives closure, satisfaction, a payment of debt, and just feels great. Unless some idiot takes his revenge on an innocent, there just is no downside. Nothing "failed" I am not blind, I see all the reasons weak people do not subscribe. Just don’t see how they can feel good about themselves.
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04:17 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
What are you saying? It sounds like you say parents should not teach or correct children, because it takes away their freedom? Or are you pointing out that my comparing the two ideas do not jive?
Nether. I wasn't making a point, but mearly expressing a thought.
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:
"intellectal thought aside?"
Only meaning the difference between the "ideal plane of exsistance", and exsisting in the real world. How we think or wish things should be, and how they really are.
"The angels of our better nature" ~v~ our base instincts.
[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 07-09-2012).]
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04:47 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43226 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
Sorry, revenge is awesome, it gives closure, satisfaction, a payment of debt, and just feels great. Unless some idiot takes his revenge on an innocent, there just is no downside. Nothing "failed" I am not blind, I see all the reasons weak people do not subscribe. Just don’t see how they can feel good about themselves.
Maybe you could elaborate on the weak people bit.
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04:53 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43226 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
Nether. I wasn't making a point, but mearly expressing a thought. Only meaning the difference between the "ideal plane of exsistance", and exsisting in the real world. How we think or wish things should be, and how they really are.
I was trying to figure out that thought I guess.
I don't follow. So that would imply give up on principles, go with the flow, a sort of whatever attitude. Even in government and law enforcement and court?
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04:55 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
I don't follow. So that would imply give up on principles, go with the flow, a sort of whatever attitude. Even in government and law enforcement and court?
Read it again in a philosophical mind and think about how as parents we "build" our children into adults by conforming them into societies construct, how to act & talk & think. We don't want them to embarrass or shame us, them, or the society we & they will soon live in. We KINDA' strip them of the true nature of freedom of thought & action. Not saying it is wrong, just how it is
In the ideal plane, I would like to see something more enlightened then "lessons in pain" as a teaching tool.
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05:04 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43226 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
Read it again in a philosophical mind and think about how as parents we "build" our children into adults by conforming them into societies construct, how to act & talk & think. We don't want them to embarrass or shame us, them, or the society we & they will soon live in. We KINDA' strip them of the true nature of freedom of thought & action. Not saying it is wrong, just how it is
In the ideal plane, I would like to see something more enlightened then "lessons in pain" as a teaching tool.
Some kids don't need spankins. That said, I did.
But see you can comment and not have a reason or point. I seem to always find a point, even if I don't try to, so that is hard for me to figure out. I don't know that its about embarassment, but about teaching them to survive and be a success, for example.
). It is not about revenge.
