http://www.news.harvard.edu...04.06/05-prayer.html

quote Prayers don't help heart surgery patients By William J. Cromie Harvard News Office Many - if not most - people believe that prayer will help you through a medical crisis such as heart bypass surgery. If a large group of people outside yourself, your family, and your friends add their prayers, that should be even more helpful, or so such reasoning goes. Researchers have been trying to prove this and even to measure the effect of prayer. Since 1988, at least two studies have found that third-party prayers bestow benefits, but two others concluded that there are no benefits. These and other studies have been soundly criticized for flaws in both method and outcome. The fuzzy results goaded researchers to conduct the largest and most scientifically rigid investigation to date. It covered 1,802 people who underwent coronary bypass surgery at six different hospitals from Oklahoma City to Boston. The cost was $2.4 million, paid by the John Templeton Foundation and the Baptist Memorial Health Care Corporation of Memphis. In a clear setback for those who believe in the power of prayer, their prayers were not answered. Prayers offered by strangers did not reduce the medical complications of major heart surgery. Not only that, but patients who knew that others were praying for them fared worse than those who did not receive such spiritual support, or who did but were not aware of receiving it. "We thought that the certainty of knowing about the prayers of outsiders would reduce complications that accompany bypass surgery," notes Jeffrey Dusek, an instructor in medicine at Harvard Medical School. "But the results were paradoxical." Dusek and his colleagues are quick to say that the study results do not challenge the existence of God. Also, the investigators did not try to address such religious questions as the efficacy of one form of prayer over others, whether God answers intercessory prayers, or whether prayers from one religious group work better than prayers from another, according to the Rev. Dean Marek, a chaplain at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn. Other participants in the study, who include researchers from Harvard Medical School and Harvard affiliates Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center and the Mind/Body Medical Institute in Boston, agree. As do the teams from medical institutions in Oklahoma City, Washington, D.C., Memphis, Tenn., and Rochester, Minn. Some skeptics believe that studying prayer wastes time and money because its reach goes beyond science. Dusek and Marek, scientist and clergyman, disagree. There's enough anecdotal evidence that prayer influences recovery after surgery and in other circumstance to take a scientific look at the results, they say. "Physicians and health-care providers want to understand if prayer can be used as part of medical treatment," Dusek points out. "In this example, could prayer be used in addition to drugs and other treatments to reduce the complications of coronary bypass surgery?" The answer apparently is "no." STEP up to pray Known as STEP (Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer), it investigated patients undergoing coronary artery bypass surgery, wherein a vein is grafted into the heart to bypass clogged blood vessels. According to the STEP report, 350,000 people in the United States and 800,000 people worldwide have such grafts each year, making it one of the most common surgical procedures. Researchers enrolled the first patients in STEP in 1998. Collection of data ended in 2001 and analyses of it were finished in 2005. People of any or no religious faith were eligible to participate. Those chosen included Catholics, Jews, Protestants, and people of no faith. The 1,802 participants were divided into three groups of about 600 each, with a mean age of 64 years. One group received no prayers. A second group received prayers after being told that they may or may not be prayed for. Members of the third group were informed that others would pray for them for 14 days starting on the night before their surgery. The prayers came from three Christian groups, two Catholic and one Protestant. The investigators report that, "We were unable to locate other Christian, Jewish, on non-Christian groups that could receive the daily prayer list required for the study." Such lists provided the first name and initial of the last name of the patients. The intercessors could pray in any way they wished but with limitations. Prayers started at a standardized time, lasted a given duration, and included the message "for successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications." This system provided a practical way to conduct the research, but limited its results to one type of prayer. Many different kinds of complications can occur during, and for 30 days following the surgeries, such as abnormal heart rhythms. Among the group that knew outsiders were praying for them, researchers recorded 197 cardiac complications, compared with 187 and 158 in the other two groups. Eighteen percent of those who received outside prayer without their knowledge suffered major complications like heart attack or stroke, compared with only 13 percent of the group that went without such support. In total, complications occurred in 59 percent of those who were prayed for, compared with 51 percent of those who received no prayers, a significant difference. Deaths during the 30 days after surgery were similar across groups, 13 and 16 in the prayed-for group, 14 in the no-prayer group. The big mystery is why there was an excess of complications in patients who knew all those people were praying for them. The researchers admit they have "no clear explanation." One theory is that those who knew so many outsiders were praying for them felt a stressful anxiety to do well. "It might have made them uncertain, wondering, Am I so sick they had to call in their prayer team?" says Charles Bethea, a cardiologist at Integris Baptist Medical Center, who was part of the research group in Oklahoma City. "We found increased amounts of adrenalin, a sign of stress, in the blood of patients who knew strangers were praying for them," notes Dusek, who is also associate research director of the Mind/Body Medical Institute. "It's possible that we inadvertently raised the stress levels of these people." The full STEP report was published in the April 4 issue of the American Heart Journal. Herbert Benson, director of the Mind/Body Medical Institute and lead author of that report, notes it is not the last word on the effects of intercessory prayer. Questions raised by the study, he says, "will require additional answers."

Wow, I'm surprised this study didn't get much publicity.

Very interesting!
Thanx!

The sad thing is that many and I mean many people believe in the power of prayer. In fact if the prayer doesn't heal the people, they believe they didn't pray hard enough.

What is sad is that people will post request here on PFF asking for prayers for somebody who is ill or terminally ill, thinking that maybe mass prayers will help the person, but it never does.

That is why I don't post to "need prayers" threads because it is all fake for the person saying they will pray for the person.

There is no power in prayer and there is no God listening. Might as well accept the hard reality of that, or just pray for me.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: The sad thing is that many and I mean many people believe in the power of prayer. In fact if the prayer doesn't heal the people, they believe they didn't pray hard enough. What is sad is that people will post request here on PFF asking for prayers for somebody who is ill or terminally ill, thinking that maybe mass prayers will help the person, but it never does. That is why I don't post to "need prayers" threads because it is all fake for the person saying they will pray for the person. There is no power in prayer and there is no God listening. Might as well accept the hard reality of that, or just pray for me.

How about sending good vibes?

quote What is sad is that people will post request here on PFF asking for prayers for somebody who is ill or terminally ill, thinking that maybe mass prayers will help the person, but it never does.

I don't pray for people who are terminally ill to heal per se. I pray for their souls to be taken care of and that their passing may be quick and painless. If they are ill, I pray for a quick recovery.

1) Do you really think God will prove himself in this way?
2) Were the people praying true Christians?
3) Were the people being prayed for true Christians?

Its clear by God's word that He doesn't allow humans to get the best of Him. And if the person who is praying isn't truly saved, then why would God answer their prayer?

Wow that's a hard one for folks without faith or a belief in God. For folks with faith (a belief in God) it's easy. That's why it's called faith! For Christians you add a little grace as well. Many people pray for me daily ( I'm on palitive care for my cancer). Most of these folks know as I do, that this cancer will take my life. So why pray? For me it's simply a way to keep and grow a relationship with God the Father. What do I pray for? Not much, usually I'm thanking him for what I have. I have much to be thankful for, family, friends, career, & up until recently good health. I believe in a loving God who gave me free will in a biological body. I don't believe in a God who micro-manages.

Back to why pray; I believe for me it has allowed me to accept the path I'm on, give me the courage & streangth to face it calmly & rationally. Next month I become a statistical outlier (don't fit the bell curve for life expectancy). This means I'm popping out on the right side of that curve. Did praying help? I believe it has helped me, bunches mentally, emotionally, & spiritually.

------------------
1986 Red s/e 2m6 5-sp, & 2006 Red Solstice 5-sp
Live Strong - I Am Phil 4:13

quote Originally posted by stumpkin: Wow that's a hard one for folks without faith or a belief in God. For folks with faith (a belief in God) it's easy. That's why it's called faith! For Christians you add a little grace as well. Many people pray for me daily ( I'm on palitive care for my cancer). Most of these folks know as I do, that this cancer will take my life. So why pray? For me it's simply a way to keep and grow a relationship with God the Father. What do I pray for? Not much, usually I'm thanking him for what I have. I have much to be thankful for, family, friends, career, & up until recently good health. I believe in a loving God who gave me free will in a biological body. I don't believe in a God who micro-manages. Back to why pray; I believe for me it has allowed me to accept the path I'm on, give me the courage & streangth to face it calmly & rationally. Next month I become a statistical outlier (don't fit the bell curve for life expectancy). This means I'm popping out on the right side of that curve. Did praying help? I believe it has helped me, bunches mentally, emotionally, & spiritually.

Well said.

Atheist Christopher Hitchens said he didn't mind if people prayed for him if it made them (the ones praying) feel better.

Also, there is something called the "care effect" that even non-believers recognize. Forget the Placebo Effect: It’s the ‘Care Effect’ That Matters

quote What Kaptchuk demonstrated is what some medical thinkers have begun to call the “care effect” — the idea that the opportunity for patients to feel heard and cared for can improve their health. Scientific or no, alternative practitioners tend to express empathy, to allow for unhurried silences, and to ask what meaning patients make of their pain. Kaptchuk’s study was a breakthrough: It showed that randomized, controlled trials could measure the effect of caring.

For Christians, caring means praying but also demonstration of the empathy noted in the "care effect".

That is far more than praying for a stranger as the Harvard Study detailed.

[This message has been edited by spark1 (edited 02-11-2013).]

quote Originally posted by BlackThunderGT: How about sending good vibes?

That is where I stand. While not a "believer" I do send vibes. Really, it does not hurt to care.

quote Originally posted by Tony Kania: That is where I stand. While not a "believer" I do send vibes. Really, it does not hurt to care.

Yeah! You're right. Nothing wrong about sending (((((Good Vibes))))).

But if you're not a true Christian, then it goes nowhere....From what others say.

Speaking of prayers "not" working.
http://www.godvine.com/Dyin...acle-fb-gv-2822.html

quote Originally posted by avengador1: Speaking of prayers "not" working. http://www.godvine.com/Dyin...acle-fb-gv-2822.html

I wonder if all the billions of people in the world prayed for an amputee's arms to grow back, if they would?

quote Originally posted by NoMoreRicers: I wonder if all the billions of people in the world prayed for an amputee's arms to grow back, if they would?

I'd be happy with one single example of it happening. Really, that would be something. I know it won't if you think it will (you can't tempt god) but you would think that if it *could* happen it would have happenned to someone. Someone. With 80-120 billion people having lived and died in the past - just one. Crickets. I guess no one is worthy of it.

When someone says they are praying for me (not that I have been in a position that really needed it) I do appreciate it even though I have zero expectation it will change anything. I appreciate that they are willing to call on whatever perceived power they can to make things better. Why would someone complain? But there are multiple studies that indicate that telling someone you are praying for them tends to make them feel somewhat worse (am I really in that bad of condition?) even if they believe the prays will work. Very strange phenomenon.

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 02-12-2013).]

quote Originally posted by Wichita: Yeah! You're right. Nothing wrong about sending (((((Good Vibes))))). But if you're not a true Christian, then it goes nowhere....From what others say.

Why does it go nowhere?

quote Originally posted by TK: I'd be happy with one single example of it happening. Really, that would be something. I know it won't if you think it will (you can't tempt god) but you would think that if it *could* happen it would have happenned to someone. Someone. With 80-120 billion people having lived and died in the past - just one. Crickets. I guess no one is worthy of it.

I've noticed that unlike atheists, most religious folk are incorrigible. If an atheist witnessed a miracle or some other form of supernatural phenomena, he would then believe in whatever it is and it would no longer be 'super'natural. It would be real and have evidence.

quote Originally posted by TK: When someone says they are praying for me (not that I have been in a position that really needed it) I do appreciate it even though I have zero expectation it will change anything. I appreciate that they are willing to call on whatever perceived power they can to make things better. Why would someone complain? But there are multiple studies that indicate that telling someone you are praying for them tends to make them feel somewhat worse (am I really in that bad of condition?) even if they believe the prays will work. Very strange phenomenon.

I've never thought of that and it's a good point. If I was l laying on an operating table and my doctor is praying that I live, I would need some new underwear.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Very interesting! Thanx!

I second that!

quote Originally posted by NoMoreRicers: I've never thought of that and it's a good point. If I was l laying on an operating table and my doctor is praying that I live, I would need some new underwear.

If I was in the hospital and someone told me there were 10 people outside holding a prayer vigil, it would real hard to not go "oh ****" assuming they were praying for my eternal damnation. Well, in both cases I would, but that's not the point ...

As the old saying goes "Praying has failed - it's time to think."

For people who like to tout the power of science over prayer, they used pretty pathetic scientific methods in that "study."

quote Originally posted by Formula88: For people who like to tout the power of science over prayer, they used pretty pathetic scientific methods in that "study."

Scientists can use a Ouija board and I will still put my money on science. At least the dissenters (peer review) can push for a correction. Science delivers the goods.