So, long story short, I decided to swap in an a 4.9/4T60E in place of my 3.4, as I had enough with it and its problems.I'm going to put it up for sale here soon in the mall. I did alot today, before today the 4.9/4t60e was ready to go for the most part with wiring, mounts, and belt routing completed. I got all my swap parts from josef644, so it made the swap that much easier. The 4.9 has a new timing chain, waterpump, oilpump ($$), and new timing cover, waterpump, valve cover, and oil pan gaskets. The 4T60E got a total tear down and rebuild, with some new internal parts (bushings, bearings, washers for the diff sun gears etc) along with a new Torque Converter plus all new gaskets and seals. The only major thing left is to build the exhaust, which I have most everything except the outlet flange! That's kind of important, just in case you didn't know.
On with pictures! Today, I dropped the cradle out of my Fiero, took off the 3.4/4-speed, and installed the 4.9/4t60e (somewhat), all by myself. Pretty exhausting.
It seems to be off a bit with the main engine mount, but I think it should work, the trans mounts aren't bolted down yet.
And I do need to ask for people's opinon. I can use either this cradle, with all new parts, POR-15, and poly bushings, or start over with the 88 cradle in the garage. The main reason why I'm going against using the 88 cradle and suspension is cost, I can't really afford coilovers and the adapter plates that are required for putting an 88 cradle in an 86, and what not. Plus I would have to cut the rear trans mount area for the 4t60e to work in that area. Thoughts?
[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 02-27-2014).]
Matt be sure and do the things that are real easy before you put it in the car. New spark plugs, set the neutral safety switch, etc. I would also recommend putting the plug wires on the spark plugs. Some are difficult after it's in the engine bay.
Looks like you are moving right along. Good luck with your swap. -Joe
P.S. That engine bracket was designed for a 84-87 cradle. I had "tickeled it" a bit to work in my 88. I would just use the pre 88 cradle.
[This message has been edited by josef644 (edited 04-16-2011).]
Matt be sure and do the things that are real easy before you put it in the car. New spark plugs, set the neutral safety switch, etc. I would also recommend putting the plug wires on the spark plugs. Some are difficult after it's in the engine bay.
Looks like you are moving right along. Good luck with your swap. -Joe
P.S. That engine bracket was designed for a 84-87 cradle. I had "tickeled it" a bit to work in my 88. I would just use the pre 88 cradle.
Thanks for the insight! Already has new spark plugs and wires on it, but I still need to set the neutral safety switch, how exactly do I do that?
Yea, I'm pretty sure I'll use the pre-88 cradle, I just hate the suspension design of it.
EDIT: another question I had. I read in your build thread that the neutral safety switch provided the starter solenoid power, was that the case, or no? Because the I see the wire that normally goes to the starter solenoid has been cut.
[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 04-16-2011).]
Thanks for the insight! Already has new spark plugs and wires on it, but I still need to set the neutral safety switch, how exactly do I do that?
Yea, I'm pretty sure I'll use the pre-88 cradle, I just hate the suspension design of it.
EDIT: another question I had. I read in your build thread that the neutral safety switch provided the starter solenoid power, was that the case, or no? Because the I see the wire that normally goes to the starter solenoid has been cut.
IIRC I sent you my neutral safety switch also. It has one lead that goes to the starter coming out of it. Purple I am thinking. It also has 2 ? connectors coming out? I did cut and remove the starter lead out of the harness from Injection Technologies, as they put it in and it was not needed in the socket they inserted into. Look at both sides of that same connector and you will see that one has nothing in it, the other had their unneeded starter lead. Any who, if you wire it up as I had it it will start and run as it should. Here is where you might have to re pin the one wire in the C500 for the start signal to get threw the neutral safety switch to get the signal . My Coupe was a stick shift, and they pinned the C500 to work for a Fiero automatic. Easy to do. If your car was a stick shift, and you are using a 4T60E, then you are good to go as I have already done this move for you.
Fiero stick shift and automatic cars have the start signal in different sockets of the C500
The neutral safety switch has a small slot in it , and so does the transmission shifter part sticking out of the transmission. Mine was full of dirt and I couldn't see them until I used some compressed air. You just have to use the correct size drill bit (3/32") to line them both up before you tighten down the two bolts holding the switch on top of the transmission. Real easy out of the engine bay. If you have a Haynes Cadillac Deville book there are two pictures you can reference on page 7-7 -Joe
[This message has been edited by josef644 (edited 04-16-2011).]
Your cradle and engine bay should be 100% complete and detailed prior to cradle installation.
The only thing you should have to do is hook up fuel lines, engine cooling, heater core, trans cooling, vacuum, electrical, linkages and air ducting after you tighten down the cradle blots.
Don't leave any detail work until after it's installed - that should all be done before cradle installation. Then it's just a matter of clean glove assembly and wipe-down.
Go with the 88 cradle. You will be happier in the end.
IIRC I sent you my neutral safety switch also. It has one lead that goes to the starter coming out of it. Purple I am thinking. It also has 2 ? connectors coming out? I did cut and remove the starter lead out of the harness from Injection Technologies, as they put it in and it was not needed in the socket they inserted into. Look at both sides of that same connector and you will see that one has nothing in it, the other had their unneeded starter lead. Any who, if you wire it up as I had it it will start and run as it should. Here is where you might have to re pin the one wire in the C500 for the start signal to get threw the neutral safety switch to get the signal . My Coupe was a stick shift, and they pinned the C500 to work for a Fiero automatic. Easy to do. If your car was a stick shift, and you are using a 4T60E, then you are good to go as I have already done this move for you.
Fiero stick shift and automatic cars have the start signal in different sockets of the C500
The neutral safety switch has a small slot in it , and so does the transmission shifter part sticking out of the transmission. Mine was full of dirt and I couldn't see them until I used some compressed air. You just have to use the correct size drill bit (3/32") to line them both up before you tighten down the two bolts holding the switch on top of the transmission. Real easy out of the engine bay. If you have a Haynes Cadillac Deville book there are two pictures you can reference on page 7-7 -Joe
Yep, I used that neutral safety switch you sent me, and I did run the purple wire out to the starter. Sadly, my Fiero was an automatic to start off with, so I'll need to move the pin over. How do you get those pins out?
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:
Go with the 88 cradle. You will be happier in the end.
I decided to use the 86 cradle, easier for me at this point in time.
Well. I have an update, as it was day 2 full of working on this swap. Today with the help of a friend, we removed the manual pedals and installed the auto pedals, removed the 4-speed muncie from the 3.4 and placed the 3.4 on the engine stand and drained its oil, Also bolted down all four mounts and welded the piece of angle iron on the cradle. Next we installed the two axles and re-installed the tie-rods, and removed the manual shifter from my Fiero. After words, I cut and welded up most of my exhaust, but I still need that darn output flange!
EDIT: Just found the flange/pipe I need from Rockauto! Awesome!
[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 05-29-2011).]
Be sure and read the whole thread as there is a white plastic piece, (terminal position assurance {TPA} ), that you must remove before you can withdraw the wire from the socket. This is real easy to do. -Joe
I use a similar mounting system on 4.9 and 3800 SC cars. I would suggest a gusset under the angle iron to reinforce it. The front mounts see lift, while the back mounts see compression. I have seen 1/4 angle iron bend or break without the gusset.
Looks good enjoy it! Wasn't that flange on it already?
Yes, there was a flange on it. I threw it in the scrap pile and forgot about it, didn't think I'd need it because I was planning to route the exhaust "fiero style" at the time, but I decided against it.
Didn't get as much done today, but I still made progress. I welded up the rest of my exhaust as much as I could without that flange/pipe. I removed the clutch line, and started to install the auto cooling lines but I found out the fittings aren't 3/8" on the radiator. Going to Napa soon to get a bunch of stuff. Did some wiring, welded a bolt on the strut tower since it was missing one, replaced the bent brake line, added gussets to the angle iron mount (thanks for the idea olejoedad!), then sprayed primer on it so it doesn't rust. Also got the heater lines figured out, as I did not know the inlet to the heater core lines was smaller then the return.
I also took the center console and guage cluster housing pieces from the 88 parts stash and painted them black, going for a black and tan theme, just like the gold/black theme on the exterior.
[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 04-18-2011).]
Got the WCF oil cooler bypass kit and exhaust outlet flange with pipe in the mail. Busy with college which is why nothing is getting done, my most productive time is the weekends.
Got stuff done on it today. Drilled holes in the A-arms for the sway bar, Did the oil cooler by-pass, finished my exhaust system, moved the C500 pin, and other small stuff. I don't see a reason why I shouldn't put the cradle back in Tomorrow or Saturday, pending on weather of course.
Today was a very busy day. So guess what I did? I PUT THE V8 IN AND IT RUNS!
It did run better for sure in the second video, because it had been running for a bit, and I fixed the nasty coolant leak from the heater hose. It has a different coolant leak from the rad outlet, but that shouldn't be that difficult to fix. There is a lot to be done still, but it does indeed run. I didn't test the transmission because I just looped the cooler lines for this short of time period, I need to install the new cooler lines still. I put in two gallons and it still doesn't seem to be enough fluid.
Matt I thought I sent you the black rubber hose that goes where your little blue filter is on the rear valve cover. It connects to the black throttle body air housing, and goes to that spot on the valve cover. I paid about $30.00 for that hose new last year. I cut it and added some hose so it would reach to the black housing. If you are not gonna use it you need to plug off the 5/8" size nipple facing the rear.
Matt I thought I sent you the black rubber hose that goes where your little blue filter is on the rear valve cover. It connects to the black throttle body air housing, and goes to that spot on the valve cover. I paid about $30.00 for that hose new last year. I cut it and added some hose so it would reach to the black housing. If you are not gonna use it you need to plug off the 5/8" size nipple facing the rear.
Yes you did, I still have them. I might install it, I might not, not sure yet. It's one of the many little details I have yet to work out.
[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 04-23-2011).]
My friend you make it all look easy! Good job. I hope you'll roll through locally so I can hear that puppy in person.
LOL, let me tell you it was NOT easy, I had and still have many little issues to work out. Plus reinstalling everything.
I do have one piece of advice for you and anyone doing this in the future, as I did not know this. You can't use the flat, non-oil fill valve cover on the firewire side without grinding/cutting away part of the decklid hinge. I saw other 4.9 swaps with two oil-fill valve covers, and now I know why, there is clearance on that side for the power steering system which was removed. I'm sure this is out there in this forum, I just did not know. That caused me a lot of anger and frustration today.
[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 04-23-2011).]
Oh I'm sure it wasn't easy but that says something about your abilities if an outside observer thinks it was easy as hell. I wish I had the money and time to put one in mine, damnit! Too many expenses going on right now. =[
Alright peeps, I got another gallon and a half of ATF in the transmission, and no more bad noises! I tried out the transmission today, and it works! It also ran pretty good today, too. Idles great, it does have a mis-fire every now and then, but I'm sure that's because of the broken O2 sensor. Got that on order right now from autozone.
[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 04-24-2011).]
did you fix that coolant leak by the thermostat yet or have you not gotten the gasket to fix it? by the way that car of yours is loud, i could here it outside by my house. i guess that what you get with only a foot or two of exhaust along with glass packs for mufflers
did you fix that coolant leak by the thermostat yet or have you not gotten the gasket to fix it? by the way that car of yours is loud, i could here it outside by my house. i guess that what you get with only a foot or two of exhaust along with glass packs for mufflers
No, I didn't fix it today, as I didn't want to be in the rain for that long. It wasn't really leaking, but who knows. Yes it is loud. Gotta love it. I'm pretty sure all my neighbors are going to hate me. This thing is LOUD. My tach is having issues, but I know I didn't even rev it too high because it got too loud. Lol.
EDIT: And I love it! I hate quiet cars, personally. Even more so with a V8.
[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 04-24-2011).]
Originally posted by mattwa: Idles great, it does have a mis-fire every now and then, but I'm sure that's because of the broken O2 sensor. Got that on order right now from autozone.
Don't get a bosch. Denso/Walker seem to work the best. Don't bother with AC Delco either. They are usually a Bosch in the box.
I mentioned that part about the valve covers in a thread recently. Guess it wasn't one of yours though. Congrats Matt!! Sounds mean.
[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 04-24-2011).]
P.S. Matt take some time and re read my 4.9 thread. I put everything I could think of in there for this reason. There is a picture of the correct valve cover up against the trunk hinge mount. The fix was there too!
[This message has been edited by josef644 (edited 04-24-2011).]
P.S. Matt take some time and re read my 4.9 thread. I put everything I could think of in there for this reason. There is a picture of the correct valve cover up against the trunk hinge mount. The fix was there too!
Like my dad always says, you live and learn. Guess I missed that part.
Sounds sweet. What car was the donor for the 4.9? I have a 92 Deville and the exhaust seems similar to yours with the manifolds, so i might use that exhaust idea if I do a swap.
Sounds sweet. What car was the donor for the 4.9? I have a 92 Deville and the exhaust seems similar to yours with the manifolds, so i might use that exhaust idea if I do a swap.
Yep, that's exactly what it was, 92 Deville. I might warn those, if you are using the deville's transmission, I highly recommend throwing a much higher final drive in it. My differential is 3.06, so I thought that was what I got. But NO, I later (recently) found out they used a 37/33 chain configuration, so now I'm down to 2.73. Gr.
Yep, that's exactly what it was, 92 Deville. I might warn those, if you are using the deville's transmission, I highly recommend throwing a much higher final drive in it. My differential is 3.06, so I thought that was what I got. But NO, I later (recently) found out they used a 37/33 chain configuration, so now I'm down to 2.73. Gr.
Did you do the wiring? Mine would be a stick shift, so my trans is probably going to the scrapper.
The 4.9 has a new timing chain, waterpump, oilpump ($$), and new timing cover, waterpump, valve cover, and oil pan gaskets. The 4T60E got a total tear down and rebuild, with some new internal parts (bushings, bearings, washers for the diff sun gears etc) along with a new Torque Converter plus all new gaskets and seals. The only major thing left is to build the exhaust, which I have most everything except the outlet flange! That's kind of important, just in case you didn't know. 
I threw it in the scrap pile and forgot about it, didn't think I'd need it because I was planning to route the exhaust "fiero style" at the time, but I decided against it.
