OMG! As if I haven't changed directions on my swap enough... Just saw fieroguru put up some awesome dyno numbers with a LS4 and F40 (saw you tuning it in the rain during the 30th). Any numbers on the LS4 with auto? What kind of MPG?
OMG! As if I haven't changed directions on my swap enough... Just saw fieroguru put up some awesome dyno numbers with a LS4 and F40 (saw you tuning it in the rain during the 30th). Any numbers on the LS4 with auto? What kind of MPG?
Sorry, no dyno numbers from the recent swap I just completed (shown above). I just barely got it done before the 30th so there was no time to get it on the dyno. The cam used in the build I just completed is smaller than what fieroguru is using. Couple that with the fact this is an auto application, I would not expect peak HP numbers out of my build to be as good as guru's numbers; but torque should be up there.
fieroguru is very correct in his statement that GM went out of their way to choke these engines with the stock (FWD) intakes and throttle bodies they put on them from the factory. From what I've read, these engines come with LS6-spec heads so the addition of the much bigger LS2 intake and throttle body alone I'm sure makes a difference.
The stock DoD cam is a peanut in comparison even to what I installed in this build, so I think pretty much anything other than stock could be an improvement. Here are some stock LS4 DoD grind cam specs I found on the net: 193/193 duration @ 0.050”; 0.482”/0.490” valve lift (these are the non DoD lobes specs; DoD lobe specs differ slightly)
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 07-07-2013).]
Glad to see you posting up the pictures of the swap! It looks good and I am sure the owner is quite pleased with it as well. As I told you at the 30th, I love the idea of the cutout to reduce exhaust noise under normal cruise conditions and will be looking to do something similar.
Looks great!!!! Do you have a video clip of how it sounds?
I did not get a chance to get a video or sound clip of the exhaust. I literally finished the car just in time for the owner to pick it up and drive it straight to the 30th (then home after that).
Having said that, I don't know if the microphones I have would have been able to collect the low frequencies that the exhaust valve was able to cancel out. I did notice that there were some very low RPM ranges that the engine operated in (I would say around 45 - 50 mph or so in 4th/OD gear) where the exhaust valve didn't seem to do very much (it still changed the exhaust note, but just didn't seem to be as effective). HOWEVER, it was very effective at reducing most of the drone noise produced at freeway speeds of 65 - 70 mph – at least to my ear. So much so that I'm going to recommend this setup to all of my future 3800 swap customers - since drone noise is a real problem with those swaps.
Ryan’s latest LS4 masterpiece belongs to me. It has been a long term dream of mine to have nice engine swap in my car. I contacted Ryan back in Dec. ’09 about doing a swap for me but he tells me that he’s booked for about a year. Too my disappointment I said thanks and contemplating my next plan of execution. Could I do the swap myself? Probably, if I had all the parts plug-n-play but that wasn’t going to happen and I’d still be working on it to this day. After about a year I contacted Ryan again, again he tells me he’s still booked and ask if I wanted to be put on the waiting list, this would give me time to save up some money. Hoping someone ahead of me backs out or changes their mind then I could move up the list. Anyway fast forward to Jan ’13, Ryan contacted me asking if I’m still interested in him doing the swap. I totally forgot about it, thinking if I didn’t pull the trigger and do it now, I’d probably never get it done. So he didn’t have to ask me twice, knowing that the 30th was in Indy and Ryan’s shop is not far from it. All I ask if he could have it done before the 30th so I could drive it there. I picked up the car on June 27th drove it to the Indy show and then 1100 miles back home (with a smile) to Texas with no problems. I also need to thank Blake for giving me a ride to Indy and Mike P. for giving me a ride to Ryan’s shop in Fort Wayne.
Thank you again…Ryan!
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Originally posted by MstangsBware: Looks good....I know the owner is very pleased with it...
Yes he is...
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Originally posted by fieroguru: It looks good and I am sure the owner is quite pleased with it as well.
Originally posted by Jims88: Is this a TCM controlled shift only set up? Non-manual shift?
TCM controlled auto shifting only. He can pull the shifter inside the car down into lower gears if he wants and that will restrict the transmission from being able to upshift into higher gears until he moves the shifter into those higher gear positions. But there is no TAPShift mode like what was available with the KB7 option equipped GXP's because the transmission doesn't have the right valve body for that and the electronics in this swap are not set up to do it either.
TAPShift is really just a gimmick anyway. If you look at how GM added TAPShift to their existing auto trans, it is a wonder that ALL of the TAPShift transmissions don't fail. Manually shifting the 4T65-E transmission is very hard on it and perhaps that is one of the reasons why there are so many 4T65-E failures in LS4 applications. Basically what GM did was just modify the existing 4T65-E trans so it could have the over-run clutches locked in manual shift mode for all gears. Nothing else was really done to make the trans much stronger for this type of duty.
What GM should have done was designed a whole new transmission based on the "manu-matic" concept like some imports with this feature have done.
TCM controlled auto shifting only. He can pull the shifter inside the car down into lower gears if he wants and that will restrict the transmission from being able to upshift into higher gears until he moves the shifter into those higher gear positions. But there is no TAPShift mode like what was available with the KB7 option equipped GXP's because the transmission doesn't have the right valve body for that and the electronics in this swap are not set up to do it either.
That's encouraging news; I had talked with Dave awhile back, about doing a performance build on my trans, but I really didn't want too have to figure out the Tap- shift stuff.
I cant believe Blake didn't let the cat out of the bag when I talked to him on Thursday! He mentioned you were riding up to Indy together but that was it
Can't wait to eyeball that beast next time I am down in the DFW area
Dr. W.
I know that boy likes to gossip more than Joan Rivers at a Hollywood party. We won't mention all the things i had to do to keep him quite. Next time your down this way we'll have to go for a ride and if your nice to me i'll even let you drive.
Beautiful job. Super clean install. As good as it gets! I wish that I had one. butwhy was the DOD/AFM disabled? I would be concerned that would cost a loss of gas mileage but maybe not.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
If you install a custom V8 in a Fiero, I don't think gas mileage is of highest priorty, but I think one reason they remove it is so they can install a larger aftermarket cam.
DOD sucks and it makes your car sound funny if you have an aftermarket exhaust installed. Sounds like a dying Subaru... only way worse. IIRC DOD is worth about 4% in fuel economy. DOD lifter failures are common as well. Even more so if you have a cam. DOD delete is a big job and about $1,200 in parts including the cam. You basicly have to strip the engine down to a short block. Atleast, in the L76 you do. Thats the only thing that has stopped me from installing a cam in the G8.
[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 07-15-2013).]
AFM/DoD has proven to be problematic in the LS4 applications. I have several friends who work in the general auto repair field (some at GM dealerships) and ALL have said they regularly see GM V8 engines that have DoD come in with DoD related problems starting as early as the 50,000 mile mark. The DoD lifters have a high failure rate and the same 4 cylinders that always get deactivated in DoD mode seem to have a problem with excessive oil consumption, especially when the engine accumulates lots of mileage.
The 1st LS4 swap I did - the DoD system was enabled. I noticed in that swap that DoD was very effective a saving fuel at lower vehicle speeds (45-55 mph). But once you got the car up to freeway speeds (65mph +), the DoD system didn't seem to be very effective at all. The engine had to work so hard at freeway speeds while in DoD/4cyl mode, it wasn't conserving much fuel compared to when the engine was operating in 8cyl mode at the same speed.
So my take on this system is this: If you regularly drive a max of 55 mph or so and never take the car on the freeway, DoD is worth having. But if you enjoy driving the car at freeway speeds, it isn't worth the trouble and the increased risk of experiencing DoD-related failures.
What GM needed to do was make it so they could alternate which cylinders got shut down in DoD mode and make it so all 8 cylinders could be deactivated - that way the engine would wear more uniformly across all 8 cylinders. The current design of the systems only allows the same 4 cylinders to deactivate every time.
Originally posted by BV MotorSports: DOD sucks and it makes your car sound funny if you have an aftermarket exhaust installed. Sounds like a dying Subaru... only way worse. IIRC DOD is worth about 4% in fuel economy. DOD lifter failures are common as well. Even more so if you have a cam. DOD delete is a big job and about $1,200 in parts including the cam. You basicly have to strip the engine down to a short block. Atleast, in the L76 you do. Thats the only thing that has stopped me from installing a cam in the G8.
The parts aren't that costly, unless you're buying a very expensive cam and aftermarket lifters and springs. All the parts to delete DOD on my LS4 total less than $200. The only thing I got used, was the cam (stock LS1/LQ9/etc… cam, and got it very cheap). New valley cover, new oil pump, new LS6 valve springs, and new LS6 lifters. The oil pan kit I got was a bit expensive (C6 Vette pan, with everything needed to install it), but not necessary to drop the DoD hardware.
It's a bit of a pain to actually do if you aren't rebuilding the motor though, as the heads do have to come off on the LS series engines, to swap the lifters.
I expect lifter failures are common because guys buy the Impala SS, G8 or other cars with automatics and V8s, and then track them on the weekends, trying to rev to 6500 all the time. And a lot of people will install aftermarket cams that aren't ground for the AFM/DoD systems, which creates excessive lift on the lifters, without knowing about the limits of AFM/DoD. The lifters aren't made to rev or lift so high.
Originally posted by Darth Fiero: AFM/DoD has proven to be problematic in the LS4 applications. I have several friends who work in the general auto repair field (some at GM dealerships) and ALL have said they regularly see GM V8 engines that have DoD come in with DoD related problems starting as early as the 50,000 mile mark. The DoD lifters have a high failure rate and the same 4 cylinders that always get deactivated in DoD mode seem to have a problem with excessive oil consumption, especially when the engine accumulates lots of mileage.
The 1st LS4 swap I did - the DoD system was enabled. I noticed in that swap that DoD was very effective a saving fuel at lower vehicle speeds (45-55 mph). But once you got the car up to freeway speeds (65mph +), the DoD system didn't seem to be very effective at all. The engine had to work so hard at freeway speeds while in DoD/4cyl mode, it wasn't conserving much fuel compared to when the engine was operating in 8cyl mode at the same speed.
So my take on this system is this: If you regularly drive a max of 55 mph or so and never take the car on the freeway, DoD is worth having. But if you enjoy driving the car at freeway speeds, it isn't worth the trouble and the increased risk of experiencing DoD-related failures.
What GM needed to do was make it so they could alternate which cylinders got shut down in DoD mode and make it so all 8 cylinders could be deactivated - that way the engine would wear more uniformly across all 8 cylinders. The current design of the systems only allows the same 4 cylinders to deactivate every time.
The design is fine, actually. It works very well as long as your keep within the limits of the design. The problem is a lot of people don't do that. They drive them too hard, disable the DoD in the ECM only, but leave the hardware, and constantly exceed the limits of what the hardware can do. If you constantly exceed the capabilities of the components of your car, those components are going to fail, whether they are DoD lifters, the transmission, the axles, or any other part.
Not sure why the previous swap you did had issues at highway speeds, but my Avalanche has been doing fine with its AFM system. No issues with the engine working too hard at highway speed, and no issues at lower speeds. I drive it hard too, though I tend to stay within the limits of the system. I try to keep it under 5500, even under hard acceleration. It's also coming up on 50K miles soon, though I don't expect to have any lifter failures then. There's no indication that such failures are imminent. And I can't feel when it switches between 4 and 8 cylinder modes, at all. It's very smooth.
I am curious as to when I will have a DoD lifter failure... its helps that my camshaft was designed around working with the DoD lifters, but revving them to 7K RPM is well beyond their design parameters (stock rev limit is 6100-6200) and at some point they will fail. It all depends on progress with getting DoD to work with the manual and how high of cruse mpg I can obtain in V8 mode, as to wether I will keep the DoD lifters or swap them for LS7 ones and get custom camshaft.
Tom, care to share what kind of interstate mpg you are seeing? I know its hard to keep your foot out of it long enough to check the #'s but I am curious what you are seeing.
The design is fine, actually. It works very well as long as your keep within the limits of the design. The problem is a lot of people don't do that. They drive them too hard, disable the DoD in the ECM only, but leave the hardware, and constantly exceed the limits of what the hardware can do. If you constantly exceed the capabilities of the components of your car, those components are going to fail, whether they are DoD lifters, the transmission, the axles, or any other part.
Not sure why the previous swap you did had issues at highway speeds, but my Avalanche has been doing fine with its AFM system. No issues with the engine working too hard at highway speed, and no issues at lower speeds. I drive it hard too, though I tend to stay within the limits of the system. I try to keep it under 5500, even under hard acceleration. It's also coming up on 50K miles soon, though I don't expect to have any lifter failures then. There's no indication that such failures are imminent. And I can't feel when it switches between 4 and 8 cylinder modes, at all. It's very smooth.
I would buy your argument if we didn't see so many DoD equipped vehicles being brought into the local repair shops with DoD-related problems - all are driven by "normal people" who don't "hot rod" them. My guy at the GM dealer says he gets a couple of DoD equipped cars a week that have DoD related problems; mostly oil consumption issues but he has had to replace lifters a few times.
None of the cars I'm talking about have had the DoD system disabled in the ECM programming. These are all 100% bone stock vehicles.
I bet your DoD system in your truck isn't even activating on the highway at cruising speed as much as you might think it is. Something as big as a truck is going to face far more wind resistance than a car will and I'm sure the 5.3L engine can't maintain a freeway speed of 70-75 mph in a truck while in 4cyl mode (unless it is going downhill). And if the system isn't in 4cyl mode, then it is running just like every other V8 out there and I'm sure it wouldn't have the same oil consumption issues (especially due to abnormal cylinder wear).
Sorry but the field reports I get don't match your claims that the DoD system is reliable. It isn't. And even if it was, that doesn't address the abnormal cylinder wear problem caused by the same 4 cylinders being deactivated every time the system is in DoD mode.
The parts aren't that costly, unless you're buying a very expensive cam and aftermarket lifters and springs. All the parts to delete DOD on my LS4 total less than $200. The only thing I got used, was the cam (stock LS1/LQ9/etc… cam, and got it very cheap). New valley cover, new oil pump, new LS6 valve springs, and new LS6 lifters. The oil pan kit I got was a bit expensive (C6 Vette pan, with everything needed to install it), but not necessary to drop the DoD hardware.
It's a bit of a pain to actually do if you aren't rebuilding the motor though, as the heads do have to come off on the LS series engines, to swap the lifters.
I expect lifter failures are common because guys buy the Impala SS, G8 or other cars with automatics and V8s, and then track them on the weekends, trying to rev to 6500 all the time. And a lot of people will install aftermarket cams that aren't ground for the AFM/DoD systems, which creates excessive lift on the lifters, without knowing about the limits of AFM/DoD. The lifters aren't made to rev or lift so high.
This is from my G8 DOD delete spreadsheet. This spreadsheet is considered the Gospel in the g8 community. In other words, if you are doing a DOD delete, you need these parts or similar. I don't know what the LS4 needs, I have only looked into the L76.
I am curious as to when I will have a DoD lifter failure...
Based on what I've heard, the lifter failures are usually due to them just wearing out. When the system is commanded into 4cyl/DoD mode, all 8 lifters for the DoD cylinders are commanded to collapse so no valve lift can occur. This means you've got all of these lifters actuating to their full extents which is going to result in increased wear inside the lifter. Of course it doesn't help that the EPA mandated that oil manufacturers reduce the zinc content of their oils. If I had a DoD engine and wanted the system working and wanted it to last as long as possible, I would buy Zinc additive and use it at every oil change. That might help the internal lifter wear issues.
Originally posted by BV MotorSports: This is from my G8 DOD delete spreadsheet. This spreadsheet is considered the Gospel in the g8 community. In other words, if you are doing a DOD delete, you need these parts or similar. I don't know what the LS4 needs, I have only looked into the L76.
ALl of those things aren't necessary. You do need a new set of head bolts, as they are torque-to-yield, but OEM will do fine. You don't have to spend the extra money on the ARPs. Most of that stuff, you don't need. The main things you absolutely need are the valley cover, lifters/guides, oil pump, head bolts, and any gaskets that do need to be replaced at that point. In most cases, the head and exhaust gaskets will be re-usable, just as the intake gaskets are. You don't need hardened pushrods, or LS7 parts, necessarily. If you want a big cam, a blower, and to rev out to 8000 RPM though, then yes, you're going to need more parts, and more expensive parts. But for a simple cam, and simple DoD delete, they aren't necessary.
Originally posted by Darth Fiero: I bet your DoD system in your truck isn't even activating on the highway at cruising speed as much as you might think it is. Something as big as a truck is going to face far more wind resistance than a car will and I'm sure the 5.3L engine can't maintain a freeway speed of 70-75 mph in a truck while in 4cyl mode (unless it is going downhill). And if the system isn't in 4cyl mode, then it is running just like every other V8 out there and I'm sure it wouldn't have the same oil consumption issues (especially due to abnormal cylinder wear).
I'll take it out later, and watch the V4/V8 active MPG indicator, that says when it is or isn't in V4 mode.
I'll take it out later, and watch the V4/V8 active MPG indicator, that says when it is or isn't in V4 mode.
I bet you'll find it runs in 4cyl mode much more often at slower speeds (45-55 mph) than it does at freeway speeds (70mph+), if it even is able to activate at all at freeway speeds (in a truck at least).
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 07-16-2013).]
Ditto I have only done 8 engine rebuilds in my time and they were to fix major engine problems... but head gaskets and gaskets in general were always cheaper than extra downtime for a failure of a used gasket... ~Zep
[This message has been edited by mwzephyr (edited 07-16-2013).]
than extra downtime for a failure of a used gasket...
