6sp pressure plate and clutch disc note the hot spot locations in the pressure plate, the pressure plate clamping force was measured by the local clutch builder at 2000 lbs, that's pretty stout, he said and much stronger than the fiero's pressure plate.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 08-12-2007).]
.................................4spd clutch vs. 6spd clutch Friction surface: 9.13" OD, 6.12" ID ____ 9.45" OD, 6.12" ID measuring inner and outer dia of friction material. Friction width: 1.5" disc, 1.65" pplate__ 1.66" disc, 1.825pp measuring width of friction material and pplate area. Spline number:__14.._________________23 with 1" diameter shaft Pressure plate: 5.87" ID, 9.18" OD______5.84"ID, 9.45" OD, measuring inner and outer dia of contact area.
4spd clutch
4spd clutch on the 6spd pressure plate, area of disc is in full contact.
In the next two pictures you can see that the 6spd disc barely fits the 4spd Muncie pressure plate however it does not cover the entire friction surface of the disc suggesting that if you use this combination you will not get the full benefit of it's increased size over the 4spd disc.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 11-27-2006).]
The 4spd disc friction surface is over covered by the 6spd pressure plate.
The 4spd pressure plates attempt to cover the 6spd disc falls way short.
The inner diameter of the 4spd plate is good but it falls short by about the same amount on the outside diameter as seen in an earlier picture.
Hub comparison The Clutch specialist told me the little springs are pre-dampening springs and you'll find out why they're called that when I get to the flywheel. He said without them you might get a little noise from the transmission when in neutral.
A lot less fuss in the end product.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 11-27-2006).]
The flywheel is an interesting piece, actually two pieces, I'm speculating that the reason the springs in the disc are called pre-dampeners is because the contact surface of the flywheel can rotate in either direction a distance independent of the bottom portion of the flywheel and has a spring like cushion mechanism that I can't see to determine what it is. I wonder what kind of noise it would make in the event of a failure should it be possible for the dampening mechanism to dislodge.
Note the 3 hot spots and how they corraspond with the three areas that are missing the metal that makes up the outer lip. Something to keep in mind when porting heads and wondering why your engine temp is higher afterwards.
The ring gear is much thicker, the flywheel is 1.62" thick from crank mounting surface to friction surface, the friction surface OD is 9.6" and ID is 6", it weighs 25lbs and the assembly weighs 40lbs, there it was about a pound less when weighed with the 4spd disc and pressure plate.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 11-27-2006).]
Now for the gear oil mixers, the 6spd weighs about 115 lbs and doesn't take up that much more space. The 5spd tranny is a Getrag from a 92 Beretta. The input shaft end is 1.1" recessed below the 6spd mounting surface, vs. the 5spd shaft at abbout .094" above the bellhousing mounting surface, the splines start at 1.47" inches from the bellhousing mounting surface in the 6spd vs. .25" from the bellhousing mounting surface in the Getrag 5spd.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 11-27-2006).]
Back to the clutch issue. I talked for a while with a local clutch builder and he said the spline number and size matches that of the Ford Ranger, and some of the Mazdas and Nissans, we confirmed the Ford with a disc centering tool.
He said he could make a brand new clutch with Kevlar on one side for about $120-140 depending on what type of material you use, the Kevlar being the higher. The price ranges because I explained that some people may opt to use a standard pressure plate in which case he said the Kevlar would not be a good match with. He also stated he could increase the strength and durability of the stock pressure plate for those who intend to go the OE route like me together with the new clutch for $310.
If you are interested in a custom high performance clutch for this application or anyother contact these guys, they know what they are doing, if the dual friction clutch I have been running behind my turbocharged 3100 they built for me is any indication, as well as the wealth of knowledge I listened to during the discussion. I also discovered during that time that severe downshifting can be detrimental to the pressure plate straps which can be bent and broken in an extreme downshift situation:
Given that the 6spd OE disc has more surface area than the Getrag and Muncie disc it can be reasoned that it is already stronger. I didn't care to spend the $30 it would have cost to have the clamping pressure of both pressure plates measured.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 11-28-2006).]
The guy that packed the transmission forgot to leave the axle tulip in it, however they were able to find it and I should receive it later this week to use as a comparison in an attempt to find axles already in production that are a match.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 11-27-2006).]
Thanks for the pictures. That's a big help. I am really curious about the auxillery shaft and axle setup. Did you get those as well?
The complete axle wasn't available and I intend to take the inboard joint to a rebuilder to see if I can match it to something from another vehicle. Since the clutch disc spline number and size has been matched to another vehicle hopefully I'll be able to do the same with the axle. I didn't have a manual Getrag flywheel for comparison.
I went to autozone today and confirmed that the 95 Ford Ranger 2WD 3.0L clutch disc fits the 6spd input shaft. The clutch disc looks like the Fiero clutch disc and is 9" in diameter, it should work properly with the pressure plate used on Fiero trannies from the looks of it.
The distance from the crankshaft mounting surface to the top of the pressure plate release tabs where they come into contact with the throwout bearing is 3.33" and that's with the disc in place and the pressure plate bolted down minus about .020" for estimated wear on the used disc.
Here are pictures of the both sides of the 95 Ford disc. 95 was the latest year they had on the shelf, so it's possible a later design maybe more similar to the stock G6 clutch disc.
Here are some examples of the kind of clutches that Tampa Bay Clutch can build, the friction material is kevlar, they also use organic on one side to tame engagement and explained their ability to increas clamping force without much effect on pedal pressure. The guy building their website is on some sort of hiatas and might not finish the job. They are friendly people so don't hesitate to call with questions, just mention you were referred to them regarding this particular project so they'll know to separate you from the general public and direct you to the individuals that deal specifically with the mods.
WARNING!
This is part of the hydraulic throwout bearings connections that has an intermediate section with the bleeder on it, it has a check valve in it, and a hose connects to it comprising three pieces including the bearing connect portion. The hose was broken off mine and when I removed the lock pin to take out the remnant that you see in the picture I discovered it was spring loaded with enough pressure to cause eye injury if the projectile hits you in the eye. Fortunately I wasn't looking at it when it fired. Have any questions let me know.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 11-28-2006).]
I chose to use the OE equipment but for those who want more options to having to spend ~$800 dollars to purchase it new if you can't find it used here is what I came up with:
There are a couple of approaches that can be taken to retain the use of the stock Fiero flywheel, you can use a dual automatic and manual flywheel combo where in you would put the auto flywheel on the crank first, get an extra crank and have the flywheel end of it cut off to the appropriate thickness to serve as a spacer between the two flywheels since it's already drilled for the flywheel, then remove the ring gear from the manual flywheel and use longer bolts to attach the duo to the crank, the additional weight will be minimal. The auto flywheel is for starter engagement.
The other option is to follow GM's example in the dual mass flywheel which consists of two parts with one attached to the crank and the other attached directly to it. This would result in a lot more weight but you can get creative with it. I have found a reasonable cost for starting material in the form of a 12" diameter cast iron disc in the range of 1"-1.5" thick depending on the needed thickness that can be machined down to fit the stock flywheel similar to the OE flywheel construction. To keep the weight in check it can be comprised of two parts, one piece cast iron and one aluminum sandwiched together, or you can go all aluminum and find a manufacturer that will attach a more durable friction surface to it since the aluminum itself will not hold up very well to direct contact with the clutch disc. I haven't looked into the possibility of improvements in aluminum strength over the years so I guess there is a possibility that that may have changed.
McMaster Carr has pretty much all of the raw materials needed: http://www.mcmaster.com/ do a search for the following part number and it will take you to the page with the cast iron disc on it: 8926K35
I would think there is a machine shop available to drill the appropriate holes in it including cutting the 6" diameter center hole for a reasonable price since the holes are going to be the most time consuming part of the process. I'll have to put the disc on the transmission to find out how thick the flywheel assembly would have to be.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 11-29-2006).]
The distance from the crankshaft mounting surface to the top of the pressure plate release tabs where they come into contact with the throwout bearing is 3.33" and that's with the disc in place and the pressure plate bolted down minus about .020" for estimated wear on the used disc.
This measurment is for the 6 speed correct, now what is the distance for a stock fiero set up? are you able to find out the Ford focus clutch I mentioned in my PM to you
Thanks Joe
------------------ Race-Tech Automotive inc. & The Fiero Shop.
Specializing in Fiero performance: 3800 swaps, custom 3800 and N* Aluminum flywheels, big Brakes, Engine rebuild, Aftermarket wheels, Bolt on performance parts, body enhancements, used Fiero parts, custom exhaust systems. www.racetechauto.com
This measurment is for the 6 speed correct, now what is the distance for a stock fiero set up? are you able to find out the Ford focus clutch I mentioned in my PM to you
Thanks Joe
That measurement is for the 6spd. I do not have an extra flywheel used with the Getrag to measure the clutch assembly height for it at the moment. As for the Focus clutch disc, I had to drop down to 95 just to get an example of the Ranger disc so I doubt they'll have anything available for the 2000 Focus. I'll try to get around to finding out.
Hey, just because you are almost the only one posting in this thread, doesn't mean there isnt a whole mess of us watching in anticipation.
Keep up the good work, and thanks!
Agreed, I have nothing to contribute but, am enjoying this thread. I don't believe your research is going to waste. Please continue the great work. -Jason
That measurement is for the 6spd. I do not have an extra flywheel used with the Getrag to measure the clutch assembly height for it at the moment. As for the Focus clutch disc, I had to drop down to 95 just to get an example of the Ranger disc so I doubt they'll have anything available for the 2000 Focus. I'll try to get around to finding out.
BTW, for the Getrag, Muncie and Isuzu, the flywheel is not transmission specific. Flywheels go with engines and clutches are all the same. Only throw out bearings are transmission-specific.
BTW, for the Getrag, Muncie and Isuzu, the flywheel is not transmission specific. Flywheels go with engines and clutches are all the same. Only throw out bearings are transmission-specific.
I'm just being specific about what I'm working with to help avoid confusing anyone should something requiring a distinction be mentioned. I figured as much about the throwout bearing and flywheel so in taking measurements between the tranny and the engine I know the constant is going to be the crank location.
Hopefully the plunge joint will arrive today so I can hunt down an alternate axle.
I have the inboard tulip and it's a hefty piece of metal, the rollers must be about 1 13/16" in diameter given the width of the tracts in the tulip, I don't have a complete axle to take an actual measurement and that's an approximate measurement a little less than what I actually measured to allow clearance.
I will not know for sure if any of the axles can be mated to the stock Fiero axles until I get a complete one. In the mean time I have since discovered that the F40 has been around since 2004 in the Saab 9-3 and that the Canadian version has a 3.91 final drive instead of the 3.55.
The 9-3 uses a jack shaft that appears to be the same all the way from 1999 for all of the manual transmissions. I have located one but will have to drive about a half hour to take a look at it and count the splines hoping for 27. If the axle can not be grafted to the Fiero's, Moser http://www.moserengineering.com/Pages/axletech.html can make a double splined axle so that you can mount the inboard roller for the F40 to the outboard joint of the Fiero. The jack shaft is something I want to take a look at since it will require a female end axle that may allow for a common axle from another vehicle.
I am also working on a template for the shift cables which I have cut out but now have to get the image into Autocad so that I can send it to the guy that laser cut my 7x reluctor ring. I had a scary moment, I removed the bolts holding the shifter mechanism down so that I could fit the template and while moving the shift lever I accidently pulled it up out of the transmission, for a brief moment all I could imagine is something falling out of place requiring a trip to Germany to reposition. I pulled it all the way out and looked inside the hole and saw that it was a pretty simple process to reinsert. Still scary though.
I'll have to buy an extra cradle so that I can make a template for brackets that will work with the stock transmission mounts. Once I get it all entered into Autocad I can send it off for an estimate which if it is as reasonable as my previous part I'll be able to get extras. I'm designing the shift cable mounts to be adjustable. So far it looks like the toughest part will be the axles.
I talked with a rep at Moser and so far the first requirement has been met, that being the axle has to be at least an inch thick since that's the smallest diameter stock that they have. I measured roughly 1 1/16 for the Fiero axles. Today I arrived at what I believe is an excellent idea. Instead of double splined axles to mate the Fiero outboard joint to the F-40s inboard joint which would still require F-40 axles since they don't come in pieces and I haven't found a confirmed cross match to another vehicle yet, a mini jack shaft could be used if Moser or some company can do it. Below is a drawing of it:
I thought about the female axle from the auto trans and then measured the seal race and found that they are the same diameter for both axles, I took other measurements and as already confirmed the F-40s tulip shaft is thicker than the Fiero's, I don't believe they'll be able to do it because of tempering but I will ask if they can make two short shafts about 5" long with the F-40 splines on one end and the Fiero splines on the other which will require narrowing of the shaft a little unless they are capable of making a male and female splined shaft.
The F-40 joint goes to a depth of 4" into the transmission, the splined depth of the female joint from the Fiero is 1 3/4" which makes for plenty of spline contact, that comes to 5 3/4" but the axle bearing race sits 3/4" inward of the outer edge of the seal so the Fiero joint would need to move that far into the transmission that's how I arrived at 5". The Fiero joints seal race would take the place of the F-40s seal race. In the picture below they don't look the same size but they are. I also intend to check and see if I can at least find a roller assembly with the right diameter rollers so that if this can't be done I can have axles made that will fit the plunge joint roller assembly of an earlier vehicle since G6 axles are so hard to find. I'll ask the local rebuilder if I can look through his spec book for something with the right dimentions. The Fieros roller assembly will fit but there would be way to much play due to the size difference and it would probably feel like a severely worn U- joint as well as probably be noisy.
The F-40s joint is on the right.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 12-03-2006).]
Can you give me a spline count and spline diameter of the G6 axle at the wheel hub?
Neil
I only have the inboard tulip and after another trip to the axle shop it looks like new axles will have to be made so far. I confirmed with Moser this morning their ability to make an axle that will accept the Fieros outboard CV joint and the 6 spds inboard joint, the problem right now is it will still require the 6spd axles since to my knowledge the inboard joint is not being sold separately as of yet.
The Fieros inboard joint roller will not fit the 6 spd tulip however it is close and maybe with some grinding it will, that will leave the smaller roller that will allow for about a half inch gap between the roller and the trailing side of the tulip that could possibly be audible on contact during a downshift or when you let off the throttle. If I can find larger rollers that will fit that will help until enough information can be gathered about the axles. I'll post pictures of what I come up with.
I didn't say it the first time, but thank you Mister Upson for your efforts. Your research and photos are gonna come in handy for plenty of us. The custom axle from Moser sounds like the best plan...any idea on what it would cost?
Would any changes to the Fiero axle lengths be needed for the 6 speed?
I didn't say it the first time, but thank you Mister Upson for your efforts. Your research and photos are gonna come in handy for plenty of us. The custom axle from Moser sounds like the best plan...any idea on what it would cost?
Would any changes to the Fiero axle lengths be needed for the 6 speed?
Best quote so far is about $300 which isn't bad at all except for needing the inboard joints for the 6 spd which is repulsive more so because of the waste of good parts. I was able to grind the ends of the Fieros roller and get it to fit in the tulip so that's a plus to at least help get make shift axles up and running until a final resolve can be arrived at. I'm not sure about the driver side yet but as can be seen in one of the pictures above with the yard stick the passenger side axle seal was moved about 1" further to the left so a custom axle would need to be lengthened by that much.
I'll post pictures of the modified roller shortly.
Thank you again Mr. Upson. Is $300 for both axles or one axle?
I'm familiar with what CV shafts are, but coudl you enlighten me on what exactly the "roller" and "tulip" are? Pleas excuse ym lack of knowledge on these.
Thank you again Mr. Upson. Is $300 for both axles or one axle?
I'm familiar with what CV shafts are, but coudl you enlighten me on what exactly the "roller" and "tulip" are? Pleas excuse ym lack of knowledge on these.
The price is for both axles, as for the tulip and roller it's probably more an issue of terminology rather than knowledge, I just started using the term roller myself after a trip to the axle shop. Below is what I was able to accomplish with about 15 minutes of grinding and I'll need to do about 15 more minutes with a dremel tool or something similar for fine tuning the edges so that there is not intereference with the movement of the roller inside the tulip.
6spd tulip with Fiero axle roller inserted after some minor metal surgery, I don't believe it will be a real problem aside from the excess contact clearance
Thanks for that pic, it explained it to me pretty well.
I gotta head out in a minute, but I guess from what you've said, it wouldn't be best to have it like that cuz of the driveline slop it would create, which I can understand...right?
Correct. However, if the needed info and parts don't show up soon a good but imperfect idea is not exempt from being tried for the sake of experimenting.
There are at least two Ford clutch discs with the correct splines for the input shaft as well as about two or three other makes that use it. They aren't necessary since the source I listed can make you a brand new performance clutch with the correct splined hub.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 12-04-2006).]
What specs would I need to know to have them make a custom clutch? I'm new to having to order things like that...I'm too used to parts-bin-diving to make something work
[This message has been edited by F14CRAZY (edited 12-04-2006).]
What specs would I need to know to have them make a custom clutch? I'm new to having to order things like that...I'm too used to parts-bin-diving to make something work
The pressure plate style and disc diameter and the spline size which in this case can be called the Ford 26 spline shaft since they started using it more than ten years ago.
I didn't notice it until a moment ago, but the driverside shaft will need to be shorter by about 2 inches or so, I haven't measured it but looking in the picture above with both transaxles mounting face down with the yard stick in between gives you a good idea. The Getrags left shaft seal is about even with the F40s case seem, then go over and look at the level of the F40s seal. I found a company on the web last night coincidently located right here in Florida that has a computerized detailed axle spec and identification database for the benefit of rebuilders. The problem is you have to be a member in order to gain access, the fee is not practical for an individual who only needs it once to find vehicle applications for one particular axle. Hopefully they'll be able to help even if it's for a small fee.
Originally posted by Joseph Upson: 6spd tulip with Fiero axle roller inserted after some minor metal surgery, I don't believe it will be a real problem aside from the excess contact clearance
That will be a HUGE problem. Consider the way the Fiero tripod fits in the Fiero tulip for comparison.
For reference, splines are spec'd by diameter and spline count. The Muncie, Getrag and Isuzu use 25mm x 14 splines on their input shafts. Are you telling us that the F40 uses 25mm x 26 spline? There's also a larger 26 spline used on T56 input shafts.
What is the spline on the inner end of the G6 axles and what is the spline on the outer end of the Fiero axles?
The Fiero (and large pattern hardware such as for the 5x115 hub swap) are 440 series CV's. Any rebuilder should be able to tell you what series the G6 axles are and be a big help in figuring out what else you can use. What is the spline where the CV's plug into the transmission? Is that the same as the older transmissions?
Does Archie use custom axles for his 6 speed conversions?
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-05-2006).]
This is a pretty interesting read, and thanks for all the pics and descriptions.
I know that a 6-speed can be fun, however, do we know what the performance benefit is, if any?
I'm thinking about the 4-speed vs. 5-speed 1/4 mi. times and the fact that they are really close with the edge going to the 3.65 4-speed. Will the 6-speed deliver a better performing package for the work, time and $?
Just interested if we have any solid information on this.
