I think you have the answer staring you in the face... if you look up the purpose of toe, you'll find that greater positive toe (toe-in) results in greater straight line stability. You should be running +0.15 degrees front and rear according to the FSM.
I think you have the answer staring you in the face... if you look up the purpose of toe, you'll find that greater positive toe (toe-in) results in greater straight line stability. You should be running +0.15 degrees front and rear according to the FSM.
I set my car up to handle neutrally, BUT. Im talking about stiffness of the wheel.
like... with my customers car, steering felt tight, and I didnt feel as much of the road through her wheel as I do mine. I feel the shock of every bump and hole on the road, and with hers I didnt.
I know what you guys are talking about, but it seems as though I didnt hit on the right words with the first post.
Originally posted by AL87: I set my car up to handle neutrally, BUT I'm talking about stiffness of the wheel.
Having a small amount of positive toe will place tension on the tie rods and rack due to the caster always trying to straighten both wheels in opposite directions. This tension has the effect of keeping both wheels pointed forward and keeping the car's direction stable. With neutral toe, you've removed this characteristic and your car's steering will feel lighter about the center, but it will also be more darty.
quote
Originally posted by AL87: I feel the shock of every bump and hole on the road, and with hers I didnt.
Road harshness though the steering wheel can be caused by several things but the biggest culprit after worn suspension parts is too much scrub radius. If you're using wheels with a shallower offset (ie wheels that are further outboard than stock), you've effectively increased the scrub radius which acts like a lever trying to twist the steering wheel out of your hands every time you hit a bump. The stock scrub radius is 50mm on the '84-'87's which is quite large, so GM installed the damper on the steering rack to dullen the harshness transmitted into the steering column. If you've removed your damper or if it's kaput, then that's another reason why your car my feel differently than your customer's.
[This message has been edited by Bloozberry (edited 08-29-2013).]
Originally posted by Bloozberry: If you've removed your damper or if it's kaput, then that's another reason why your car my feel differently than your customer's.
They are right talking about your alignment and scrub. You might be misunderstanding your responses. As a automotive tech I stand behind what you have been told, but the explanation was above your head. Your alignment changes as parts wear and age. What they are saying is get a 4 wheel alignment. Make sure they adjust camber, caster, and toe as any of these can cause the issue you are explaining. just the caster alone will cause a looseness in your wheel so make sure the alignment shop shows you a print out of the before and after. Also check the air in your tires. To much can cause that as well. When you take it to an alignment shop the air pressure should be checked and adjusted properly.
They are right talking about your alignment and scrub. You might be misunderstanding your responses. As a automotive tech I stand behind what you have been told, but the explanation was above your head. Your alignment changes as parts wear and age. What they are saying is get a 4 wheel alignment. Make sure they adjust camber, caster, and toe as any of these can cause the issue you are explaining. just the caster alone will cause a looseness in your wheel so make sure the alignment shop shows you a print out of the before and after. Also check the air in your tires. To much can cause that as well. When you take it to an alignment shop the air pressure should be checked and adjusted properly.
Thing is that I took it to an alignment shop, camber and castor are within spec, and thier mechanic adjusted the front toe within spec as well since it wasnt.
Im not talking about the general looseness of the wheel, I know I set mine to be neutral. Im talking about the steering wheel's response whilst going over a bump. in my customer's car, I barely felt anything; in my car, the wheel jumps around twice as much.
part of that is because of my neutral toe, and part of that was because (as I mentioned above) my steering damper is going, and not as good as the new one I had tested.
Assuming the alignment shop did a 4 wheel alignment and adjusted all 4 wheels to specks including the toe on all 4 and if it still feels "loose" just go down the list of the obvious - age and type of shocks (yours and what was on the customers car) tire rods balls joints etc.. (but a good alignment shop will point out the defects) - check rack for leaking or loose mounting - check steering column mounting bolts and of course the steering damper. Good luck!
Thing is that I took it to an alignment shop, camber and castor are within spec, and thier mechanic adjusted the front toe within spec as well since it wasnt.
Im not talking about the general looseness of the wheel, I know I set mine to be neutral. Im talking about the steering wheel's response whilst going over a bump. in my customer's car, I barely felt anything; in my car, the wheel jumps around twice as much.
part of that is because of my neutral toe, and part of that was because (as I mentioned above) my steering damper is going, and not as good as the new one I had tested.
Just to clarify, what you are trying to describe is what is typically referred to as bump steer I believe.
the sweering wheel's alignment is changing the 12 o clock position was over near the 1 or 2 o clock position, and then after driving it around like that for a week or so, it has "solved" itself.
the car pulls slightly to the right, but it has done that....
something somewhere is loose, but every time I jack the car up and take the wheels off to check, everything is tight...
could it be inside the steering rack? (BTW, in all my mechanical experience, I've never been inside a steering rack)
[This message has been edited by AL87 (edited 09-15-2013).]
I put my car down for a little tlc, I discovered that the upper ball joints in the front end were not set where I set them 3-4 months ago, and it seems like they slipped to around 0 camber.
anyone else know how to deal with this upper ball joint sliding around? I tightened everything down as tight as I can get them, with a 3/4 drive and crescent wrench. I am using hex head bolts instead of the cap bolts supplied with the upper ball joints as I find I can apply more torque.
ALSO, I guess these were "popping" and sliding around while I was making slow and tight turns. and the ball joint on the left side was bad, turns out the ball was wearing unevenly, accounting for the steering wheel's 12'clock shifting around between the 11 and 1 positions.
I took all the joints off and tested them in a vice, I got tired of sitting there with the car jacked up weekly to try and shake the tires around just for everything to feel alright or tolerable.
[This message has been edited by AL87 (edited 09-23-2013).]
Originally posted by Bloozberry: I think you have the answer staring you in the face... if you look up the purpose of toe, you'll find that greater positive toe (toe-in) results in greater straight line stability. You should be running +0.15 degrees front and rear according to the FSM.
Ignore FSM. GM Updated that thru TSB... See my Cave, Alignment Spec's
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
I just experienced the difference you described. The difference was the caster. Check my thread: "Caster / Castor Adjustment or Front End Lift / Hood Vents?"
Because that's what it sounds like, and my car just started doing that too and I have been having the same symptoms as you. would really like to get it figured out.
Because that's what it sounds like, and my car just started doing that too and I have been having the same symptoms as you. would really like to get it figured out.
...No. that doesnt sound like what my car was doing, but it felt that way. there was a constantly "misaligning" of my steering wheel position for a month when I find out its the ball joint on the rear control arm where the bolts had their nuts dropping off.
as far as the caster, I'll have to check into that. I have 4 new tires and a fresh alignment. and my wheel is still not "tight" BUT a lot better. and the car feels stable. I guess you could say it feels neutral. I feel its unstable at high speeds though.
the damper has little to do with it, if anything sounds more like the rear of your car needs some freshening up.
I agree completely. It need a proper alignment and the rack could also be worn. The damper only absorbs kickback. I threw them away on all my Fieros and both Mercedes SLs as worthless dead weight.
Did you get a printout of your specs? What were the caster numbers? A higher caster increases high speed stability.
Jonathan
I just checked the paperwork they gave me, and it looks like they didn't give me a sheet! I specifically asked them to give me one!!! now I gotta go back... fuuuuuuuuu.
