I'm in the process of putting an LFX (FWD) into my '87 and I've mated it to an F23 transaxle from a 2001 Cavalier with a 2.4 (Quad4 pattern). The bellhousing needs trimming just under the coolant manifold plus a bit of carving for starter nose clearance of the LFX starter. Some of the bolts line up, others need to be added but the dowels locate properly.
I went with the F23 to avoid the expense and mods needed for the Saab F40 transaxle. I've adapted a Cobalt SS aluminum flywheel (8 bolt) by redrillng the mounting pattern and installing the proper ring gear but there is likely an easier method that already works with the F23. My combo will likely be different than a more mainstream solution so I'll leave that up to the next person. I think the rest of the F23 details have been covered in other threads.
Just wanted to let people know that there's a cheap way to get a 3.6 attached to a manual for the Fiero.
To reiterate some of the pertinent specs: LFX, 304 hp, direct injection, 360 lbs, same power as LS4 with less weight and a standard starter location. F23: 112 lbs, uses Fiero axles and clutch disc.
[This message has been edited by mender (edited 02-23-2016).]
No, the bolt pattern isn't exactly the same as the Quad4 but IIRC three bolts line up. I'll be making two brackets to pick up a few more bolts. The main thing is that the dowels locate the F23 correctly; that was the part that I was most concerned about so I machined a mandrel that located off the crank pilot hole and slipped on the Quad4 Getrag bellhousing I had sitting around.
Can you post some pictures? Is the LFX bolt pattern the same as the Quad 4?
No. The LFX pattern is the High Feature V6 pattern (unique to the HFV6 family). An adapter plate would be required to mount any transverse manual transaxle to a HFV6, except for the Saab F40 that came bolted to the 2.8t 9-3 for a few years. It's the only manual transverse application with the HFV6 bell pattern that I'm aware of currently. And getting that version of the F40 can be pretty pricey.
No, the bolt pattern isn't exactly the same as the Quad4 but IIRC three bolts line up. I'll be making two brackets to pick up a few more bolts. The main thing is that the dowels locate the F23 correctly; that was the part that I was most concerned about so I machined a mandrel that located off the crank pilot hole and slipped on the Quad4 Getrag bellhousing I had sitting around.
Definitely interested to see pictures of this.
Is the diff output location the same as for the stock 6t70 trans? Or is it rotated a bit from there?
Very interested to see pics. On another note welcome! Nice to have another Alberta fiero fan on the site. I'm just south in Lethbridge. When you get this up and running I'd love to see it. I've always thought the high feature (2.8 or 3.6) would make great engines for the fiero, but the wiring and fuel systems intimidate me a bit. And of course tunning, which I still in need of help with on my own swap.
[This message has been edited by Bridgetown (edited 02-24-2016).]
Thanks, I've stopped in here occasionally, mostly to look for info so I figured I might as well contribute. This project likely won't get completed until late summer if I'm lucky, too much happening but will let you know. I race an '87 with an LX9/282 in Chump, the transaxle is going to get updated to an F23 for the Castrol race in July.
Looks like I'm going to need help to show pictures. They're in the camera but it looks like I'm supposed to download them somewhere then link to them.
Anyone?
[This message has been edited by mender (edited 02-24-2016).]
I scrolled to the bottom of the page but can't find that icon or rectangle. Maybe I don't have permission yet.
Don't know the orientation of the 6t70 so can't say but the F23 should end up in the same location as the 282. At least that's the plan; I'll use my 60 degree F23 on the stock 2.8 with the front mount still attached to locate and fab the transaxle mounting brackets, then switch to this F23 and the 3.6 to fab the engine mounts.
Getting there: apparently the images are too large, how do I reduce them?
While I'm waiting: I used a 2010 Acadia? engine with a broken rod for mock-up purposes and a Camaro 3800 iron flywheel redrilled to the proper bolt pattern to check starter engagement and such. I machined some material off the crank side of the flywheel, will have to look up the numbers for that, plus opened up the hub id to fit the LFX crank. I just got my clutch and pressure plate (basically the same dimensions as the stock Fiero) but haven't bolted things together to measure finger height yet, so I don't know if/how much material needs to be machined off the Camaro flywheel to work with the F23 slave cylinder. I don't know if that's already been researched; if so, chime in with the results.
Does anyone know how close the HF and Ecotec bolt patterns are? I see the Ecotec F23s laying around on the ground at the pick n pull places and if they can fit as well, that really opens up the cheap transaxle option.
[This message has been edited by mender (edited 02-25-2016).]
As you can see, they are all different. I'd definitely like to see how much hacking up of the Q4 bell housing you had to do, in order to mate it to the HFV6 though.
Overhead view of the F23 bolted to the LLT engine (ignore the bad focus and the Northstar) Closer in to show the minor trimming by the thermostat housing Starter nose clearancing With starter From inside the bellhousing; I removed more than I had to, next time will be better With thermostat housing installed Left underside showing the extra tabs and oil pan bolt holes Right side of same Camaro 3800 flywheel, redrilled and hub id machined to fit crank
[This message has been edited by mender (edited 02-25-2016).]
As you can see, they are all different. I'd definitely like to see how much hacking up of the Q4 bell housing you had to do, in order to mate it to the HFV6 though.
Looks like the Quad4 is the only one that'll work, thanks!
On your last posted picture, can you mark which dowels and which fasteners are working? Do you have any on the bottom of the housing? You can do that in 'Paint' also.
so do the dowels line up and maintain the same center as the crank? this is an interesting development, and I may pursue this if I swap to a HF engine next...
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
The dowels are the only ones on the block. Two of the bolts go through the dowels, the third bolt is the one on the far right of the picture.
I'll be fabbing a bracket to pick up the two upper bolts on the left plus another bracket under the F23 to secure the transaxle to the engine oil pan structure as per factory.
[This message has been edited by mender (edited 02-26-2016).]
so do the dowels line up and maintain the same center as the crank? this is an interesting development, and I may pursue this if I swap to a HF engine next...
Yes, the dowels line up and centre the F23 transaxle correctly on the engine. That's why I'm posting all this, to allow others the opportunity to do HF swaps without having to track down and install a Saab F40.
The F23 is the easiest and cheapest transaxle swap for the Fiero. Stock axles, adapters available for the clutch and linkage, cheap low mileage transaxles available in the scrapyards; mine was $94. The HF FWD engine is becoming surprisingly affordable as well; I bought my 2012 Impala LFX engine with 20,000 miles for $800.
[This message has been edited by mender (edited 02-26-2016).]
Yes, the dowels line up and centre the F23 transaxle correctly on the engine. That's why I'm posting all this, to allow others the opportunity to do HF swaps without having to track down and install an F40.
The F23 is the easiest and cheapest transaxle swap for the Fiero. Stock axles, adapters available for the clutch and linkage, cheap low mileage transaxles available in the scrapyards; mine was $94. The HF FWD engine is becoming surprisingly affordable as well; I bought my 2012 Impala LFX engine with 20,000 miles for $800.
is the transmission cocked forward or aft at all? I'm liking this alot...
Yes, the dowels line up and centre the F23 transaxle correctly on the engine. That's why I'm posting all this, to allow others the opportunity to do HF swaps without having to track down and install a Saab F40.
The F23 is the easiest and cheapest transaxle swap for the Fiero. Stock axles, adapters available for the clutch and linkage, cheap low mileage transaxles available in the scrapyards; mine was $94. The HF FWD engine is becoming surprisingly affordable as well; I bought my 2012 Impala LFX engine with 20,000 miles for $800.
Do you have the half shaft that came on the HFV6? Would be interested in seeing pics of that bolted up and just resting in the diff area to show the angle.
is the transmission cocked forward or aft at all? I'm liking this alot...
As far as I can tell, the F23 is in the normal location, same as it would be if it was attached to the stock 2.8. No measurements but based on visually comparing it to my other Fiero that is up on the hoist beside the LLT/F23.
If you look back to Dobey's post with the 60 degree and Q4 bellhousings and compare the dowel locations to the axle location with a straight edge across the screen, they look to be very close, enough so that I suspect they are the same.
[This message has been edited by mender (edited 02-26-2016).]
Do you have the half shaft that came on the HFV6? Would be interested in seeing pics of that bolted up and just resting in the diff area to show the angle.
No, I bought just the engine.
I've installed the right side halfshaft into the F23 to make sure it clears the HF engine and it does. Do you have any pictures of a stock configuration? If so, maybe I can use that to compare where things are at. What are your concerns?
[This message has been edited by mender (edited 02-26-2016).]
I've installed the right side halfshaft into the F23 to make sure it clears the HF engine and it does. Do you have any pictures of a stock configuration? If so, maybe I can use that to compare where things are at. What are your concerns?
My concern is whether the transaxle is rotated slightly. Looking at the pictures, it seems like it would have to be rotated, for the dowels to line up. With the transmission mounted in the cradle with stock mounts, as it would be with the Q4 attached, it seems like the HFV6 might be rotated either forward, or rearward, rather than level. But it's difficult to tell from your current pictures. If this is the case, it should be visible with the HFV6's half shaft and bracket, as the shaft should no longer be parallel with the engine if the diff is in a rotated position from where it should be. Or if you place the engine and trans in a cradle with the stock trans mounts attached, as then any rotation of the engine versus the transaxle should be evident.
I'm not sure a slight rotations is worth worrying about.
Depends on how much it is, which direction, and how the car is driven. If the car is raced and the change in angle helps force oil away from the sump, it could cause starvation and critical failure of the engine. I think it's a factor worth determining and measuring, so that those who wish to go about a swap using this trans can determine for themselves whether it will be worth worrying about.
The fact that the F23 bell housing is smaller than the HFV6 bell pattern is probably more worrying for most people who want to use the swap in a street car, assuming the change in angle of the engine is very small.
As you can see, they are all different. I'd definitely like to see how much hacking up of the Q4 bell housing you had to do, in order to mate it to the HFV6 though.
Anyone else having trouble seeing the middle pic? The thumbnails all show up for me, but when I click on the middle one, I get the "broken picture" icon, instead of a pic. The others work fine.
Anyone else having trouble seeing the middle pic? The thumbnails all show up for me, but when I click on the middle one, I get the "broken picture" icon, instead of a pic. The others work fine.
Weird. I am seeing the broken pic icon too when clicking to show the large size. However, if i copy the URL for the image and paste it in a new tab, it shows fine. And after searching for the image, I see it embedding fine in other web sites. Quite odd.
Originally posted by mender: As far as I can tell, the F23 is in the normal location, same as it would be if it was attached to the stock 2.8. No measurements but based on visually comparing it to my other Fiero that is up on the hoist beside the LLT/F23.
If you look back to Dobey's post with the 60 degree and Q4 bellhousings and compare the dowel locations to the axle location with a straight edge across the screen, they look to be very close, enough so that I suspect they are the same.
It looks very close, to me, as well. Any differences will likely be minor.
With that said, if the Quad 4 F23 works, then a Quad 4 Getrag (actually, I'm thinking the later HTOB Beretta T550) should work as well. And it will be able to use stock configuration Fiero tranny mounts.)
I wonder which FDR would be most desirable with the HF V6. That might be the deciding factor for me.
Originally posted by Slammed: Very cool. What kind of engine management solutions are there for the LFX? Stock PCM programmable or what?
Stock ECM is the only option I know of that is in a reasonable range of cost. The few aftermarket options which can do SIDI seem to be very expensive. I asked Haltech previously if SIDI would be supported on their Elite unit, and was told they were working on it, but I don't know if that's available yet. I haven't seen any SIDI swaps done on Mighty Car Mods yet, anyway.
Originally posted by Slammed: Very cool. What kind of engine management solutions are there for the LFX? Stock PCM programmable or what?
I was looking at doing a 3900/LZ9 swap, but this one suddenly became a lot more appealing, due to the tranny option that appears to be available. The 3900 (probably) uses an E37 ECM. The 3900 also already exists in a manual configuration (Pontiac G6.) I asked around, and was told that an E37 could be made to run stand alone in a manual tranny configuration. I'm thinking that the LFX would use something similar - or at least a similar generation ECM. The LFX also was available in a manual tranny configuration, so I have to believe that it's possible to make it run stand alone.
A while back, I was considering an LY7/3.6, but the power of the 3900 is within shouting distance, in a much more compact package, so I kind of gave up on that. Bang for the buck, bla, bla, bla...
Of course, compared to the LY7, the LFX is a whole 'nother animal.
With all of that said... Talk with Ryan Gick / gmtuners.com / DarthFiero on the forum. He's who I talked with regarding the 3900. If anyone here can do it, it would probably be Ryan.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 02-26-2016).]
Originally posted by Raydar: I was looking at doing a 3900/LZ9 swap, but this one suddenly became a lot more appealing, due to the tranny option that appears to be available. The 3900 (probably) uses an E37 ECM. The 3900 also already exists in a manual configuration (Pontiac G6.) I asked around, and was told that an E37 could be made to run stand alone in a manual tranny configuration. I'm thinking that the LFX would use something similar - or at least a similar generation ECM. The LFX also was available in a manual tranny configuration, so I have to believe that it's possible to make it run stand alone.
A while back, I was considering an LY7/3.6, but the power of the 3900 is within shouting distance, in a much more compact package, so I kind of gave up on that. Bang for the buck, bla, bla, bla...
Of course, compared to the LY7, the LFX is a whole 'nother animal.
With all of that said... Talk with Ryan Gick / gmtuners.com / DarthFiero on the forum. He's who I talked with regarding the 3900. If anyone here can do it, it would probably be Ryan.
The earlier SIDI engines all used different ECMs from their non-SIDI coutnerparts. The electronic requirements for firing the injectors on the SIDI engine are different from the traditional injectors, so OEMs use different ECMs for them. You won't be able to use the stock ECM from a non-SIDI configuration to drive a SIDI engine, but almost all of the ECMs should be able to be used in a manual configuration, as the same ECMs were used across different engine families and drivetrains, so almost all have the bits to flip for manual versus auto.
The earlier SIDI engines all used different ECMs from their non-SIDI coutnerparts. The electronic requirements for firing the injectors on the SIDI engine are different from the traditional injectors, so OEMs use different ECMs for them. You won't be able to use the stock ECM from a non-SIDI configuration to drive a SIDI engine, but almost all of the ECMs should be able to be used in a manual configuration, as the same ECMs were used across different engine families and drivetrains, so almost all have the bits to flip for manual versus auto.
I understand that the injectors will fire differently. Hell... we can't even agree how to properly fire multecs with an ECM that was designed for pintle-type injectors. My point is that all of these ECMs are from the same generation. Maybe even using the same hardware. Since the LFX is installed in a Camaro, among other popular cars, I have to believe that there is some support available, in the aftermarket, if not right here. I haven't poked around to see which ECM is used by the LFX, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's the E37 or E38.
Edit - a quick search seems to reveal that the SIDI V6 uses an E39 or E39A PCM. Applies to the Camaro, Acadia, and a bunch of others. https://www.efilive.com/gm-gas-vehicles
I drew the lines connecting the dowels and a line to the centre of the axle location. There's a slight difference in the angle of the transmissions; taking that into account I'd say that they're very close or the same. For more confirmation, check the internal ribbing vs the dowel locations; again very close or the same.
[This message has been edited by mender (edited 02-27-2016).]
It looks very close, to me, as well. Any differences will likely be minor.
With that said, if the Quad 4 F23 works, then a Quad 4 Getrag (actually, I'm thinking the later HTOB Beretta T550) should work as well. And it will be able to use stock configuration Fiero tranny mounts.)
I wonder which FDR would be most desirable with the HF V6. That might be the deciding factor for me.
Thanks for that, i was concentrating on the F23 because of the low cost and good availability but the stock Fiero 282 with a Quad4 bellhousing would be the simplest solution. As you said, stock mounts, shift linkage, etc. As it turns out I have one of those sitting on my shop floor, the Q4 282 bellhousing is what started this whole thing.
[This message has been edited by mender (edited 02-27-2016).]
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