EDIT: I no longer plan the ecotec swap,I bought a V6 (car)and plan to use that engine with the notchback
Hello Everyone, it is time to introduce myself I think.
I am Erwin, A Dutch guy from the Hague and I have had 3 Fiero's before and I tought the bug was gone.. Last week however I found a "parts-Car" Fiero for sale and it was complete but not running. It is a 1984 Stock 2M4 Fiero with Sunroof and 4 speed manual transmission and it is a tidy car altrough the paint is pale (used to be red) and it is not running however once I took a seat in it I knew.. I have to have it!
So I bougt it and now the struggle to get it on the road again.... I have lurked on the forums for years (since my last fiero a while back) and I am preparing for the worst.. the car didn't move on it's own power for over 5 years so I asume the Iron Duke is a gonner Since I live in Holland, Opels are more available than Camaro's,Firebirds and all other 3,4 and 3.8 engines So that got me thinking of buying a fwd transverse engined Opel like the Vectra or maybe even an Astra So I could take the engine and all stuff and install it into the Fiero.
That said I have never swapped an engine before nor can I weld, so I might need some help. Are there any Dutch Fiero enthousiast on this forum that could help ? Or any tips from people who did the swap?
With the increase of horsepower (I believe the Iron Duke makes 90 HP vs the 143 in the Ecotec) would I need to change the brakes on the Fiero to match the power? I am thinking like Volkswagen Golf mk4 or Subaru Impreza both have the 5x100 boltpattern and have more advanced brakes.
I am planning to buy a complete and running donor car (opels are really cheap over here !) and use whatever I can from it. A 2.2 Ecotec makes 143 HP wich would be more than enough for me, I am not really a racer so I do not need a turbo or supercharger I just want to drive in one of the best looking mid engined cars again ( to me that is a stock looking lowered 2m4 Fiero with 16 or 17 inch wheels)
After I did the swap and lower the car I might want to tweak it a bit to improve the looks, I like the later model decklids better than the 1984 one and I would prefer a brown interior over the gray one so I might have it retrimmed I also want to upgrade the radio to include bluetooth so I might see what my options are there By the way, this car is red and my dreamfiero would be white, will it be difficult to find a white body and install that on this shell of would it be better to wrap this one in white or have it resprayed? My dreamwheels would be the Year One Snowflakes in 17 inch but these have a different boltpattern right?
Is there anyone that ever recreated the driversside quarterpannel (the one with the airscoop) in a passenger-side quarterpannel? I would love to have the Fiero look as stock as possible with some tweaks so the people who do not know the Fiero would think it is stock, but people who know the car see the changes.
[This message has been edited by Erwin03 (edited 04-03-2017).]
You may be able to revive the Duke engine without much trouble, and at least have a working car while you get ready for a swap. We don't have many Opels in North America, so there may not be a lot of information about everything you need.
Lots of questions there. I'll try to break it down:
-Not a lot of ecotec swaps have been completed. They are certainly possible, but not for the faint of heart. There is a spike in interest, and it seems you're going to start seeing more and more swap parts being sold. There are certainly easier and better supported and documented swaps (3.4, 3800, etc.), but probably not anything that's as readily available outside of Canada and the US. -There are some popular and well sorted brake swaps for 84-87 cars. Lebaron and Corvette come to mind. I'm not too familiar with them, as I have an 88. Depends on whether you want to keep stock wheels, or go bigger. I find the stock brakes to be pretty terrible, and I would upgrade them regardless of whether or not I did an engine swap. The brake booster swap is also popular, which doesn't increase braking power, but increases braking relative to pedal input. -As far as the decklid swap, others will have to weigh in. Not sure what's involved in that. I'm sure at a minimum, you'd need a decklid and vents. Not sure what is required in terms of brackets and mounting. -As far as a radio, factory is 1.5 din. You can sneak a double din in with modifications (search, there's a thread on it). Otherwise, look for any aftermarket single din. There are adapter plates readily available. -In terms of body color, the Fiero is easier than a typical car to change the color. All the panels come off, so the difficultly of dealing with the unibody inside the hood, trunk, door jambs, etc. isn't there. If you find a good donor car, you can swap all the parts over, but at 30 years old, most Fiero's look pretty rough by now. Certainly ones being parted out. Wrapping is a matter of personal preference. Even a well done wrap is going to look rough around complex curves. Depends if you care about that. You're also not going to get the quality of finish of a nice paint job, but you're also paying a lot less. -Any wheel from a RWD, front engine car is going to have an offset that doesn't work on the Fiero. Offset on a Fiero is in line with a FWD car. Bolt patterns can be deal with with adapters. TA wheels are going to stick out about a foot. If you're looking for a larger version of a snowflake wheel, there's not much out there. Konig makes the Lace, which is sort of snowflake like. XXR makes a nice wheel, but its only available pretty big and wide. -No one to my knowledge has replicated the stock fiero intake 1/4 panel on the passenger side. There are several styles of aftermarket scoops that are symmetrical on both sides, but they all have different looks. I have seen people put Fiat x19 scoops on, which are symmetrical and have a vintage look to them.
It's your car, and its up to you, but I'll say this: Fiero's, as much as I love them, are a dime a dozen. I'm sure they're less common there, but still, if this car is the wrong year, wrong exterior color, wrong interior color, wrong engine, it might be worth finding another car. If you'd be happy with a red, tan interior, 140 hp car, go find a v6 car and call it a day. If you're committed to making this car your own, be prepared for a lot of work. Not trying to discourage you. Just be prepared for what you're getting into.
Not done an ecotec swap but I'll throw in some things I can think of.
I have read that the ecotec comes with differing bell housings depending on model. If you can find one that comes with a GM style bellhousing then you'd be able to use the existing gearbox. Over here I believe such engines came from the 2000-2001 Pontiac Sunfire and Chevy Cavalier. No idea if there is equivalent cars where you are. If not then you'll probably have to use the transmission that comes with the engine which will mean at the very least, custom axles. Also, I thnk the trans that comes with the ecotec uses an hydraulic throw out bearing so you'll need to connect the Fiero's hydraulic system to the ecotec trans' system. If using the Fiero trans I believe you still use the ecotec hydraulic throw out bearing but need some sort of spacer behind the throwout bearing otherwise will will extend too far and blow apart.
You'll probably need to make all new engine mounts (and transmission if using the ecotec trans) - Better learn to weld.
Exhaust. Just a guess but I'd expect worst case scenario of having to weld up a custom exhaust system - more welding and it's thin stuff which has it's own challenges.
Cooling system. Just getting coolant pipe to all connect up, especially the heater related stuff can be interesting and may need some creativity when the two sides (the car and the engine) don't quite match up.
Electronics. A lot of modern engine management systems treat the 'whole' car as a single unit. That means you need the dash stuff in there as well to keep it all happy. Best case scenario is that it is fairly basic ODB II type system that only needs engine input and does not communicate with the dash etc. Or you can go completely DIY with either a commercial system or a DIY system like megasquirt. In the case of something like megasquirt I think you'd be very much on your own. Get the fuel maps wrong and you could melt things! Not for the faint of heart!
Then you've got to connect all that modern electronics up to a your car's systems. While not difficult, you do need the wiring diagrams for the car and what you are connecting to it. Then it's just case of sitting down with pencil and paper and figuring it out. all it tasks is time (lots of it LOL)
That's all I can think of as the minimum I'd be looking into before starting such a swap. Don't want to put you off, figuring this lot out and learning to weld and actually doing it is a great sense of achievement. Just be aware of what you are getting into and the potential cost (because it will get expensive!).
Edit. Re brakes. Best 'upgrade' I have ever done on the brakes is to swap the booster for the S10 one. There are threads on here about it or look on Rodney Dickmans web site, he sells a banjo adapter for the S10 booster that makes installing it a doddle, also has link to Summit racing page to correct booster to get. Add new/decent brake pads and make sure the calipers are in good working order, especially the rears since they have the e-brake adjustment gizmo on them and can get stuck over time and it's a really good system, plenty of stopping power for the average car and for me at least, the brake pedal 'feels' like a modern car.
Good luck
------------------ Anything I might say is probably worth what you paid for it, so treat it accordingly!
Thank you all for this input, it helps a lot! Fiero's are rare in Europe so finding one is a bit of a hassle to start with. That is why I bought this one, it is a manual gearbox so that is a start. From what I have heard and read the Ecotec is a worldwide engine and the cavalier, Sunbird uses the same Engine/transmission as their european counterparts (vauxhall/Opel Astra, Vectra, Zafira and Calibra. So the Fiero axles should be usable. I was counting on welding and making/mounting engine and transmission mounts. My idea was buy a complete car and swap what is needed.
You guys have giving me a lot to think about.. To be continued!
Be aware of the different bolt patterns for the transmission. Fiero and Ecotec are different so you will not be able to use your Fiero transmission. It's called the 'Metric' bolt pattern, but it is mis-named '60 degree' on this graphic. The Opel and North American Ecotec patterns may not be the same.
[This message has been edited by Gall757 (edited 03-18-2017).]
Go to my thread "ecotec swap" in the construction zone.Everything you need to know is in there.You can find everything in europe to make it all happen. And buy a nice MIG welder, you wont be sorry. If the euro transmissions are getrag F23 then fiero axles fit right in.Use the engine and tranny from your donor car , then bolt patterns do not matter.
[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 03-18-2017).]
Go to my thread "ecotec swap" in the construction zone.Everything you need to know is in there.You can find everything in europe to make it all happen. And buy a nice MIG welder, you wont be sorry. If the euro transmissions are getrag F23 then fiero axles fit right in.Use the engine and tranny from your donor car , then bolt patterns do not matter.
I have read your tread from front to stern, it got me interested in the swap to begin with. I have never welded before so a cursus or some help is needed but once I have learned I would love to be able to do thisyself... maybe that will be a begin. The Getrag F23 is the most used 5 speed in Opels and Saabs here, almost 70% of cars sold in Europe are manual gearboxes
Mig welders with gas backup are really easy to use.You could take a course but really a bunch of scrap steel and the owners manual and some practice is all you need. I still take more complex stuff to my friend Al once in a while but I can do most stuff by myself now. The heat and speed settings for different thicknesses are usually posted right on the welder.
Welcome to the forum. I am doing an Ecotec swap right now, but not sure I would be much help for you. There are a lot of us who don't really follow a pre-programmed set of instructions - it is hard to give a step by step. All I can really do is tell you what I am using:
Engine is a 2.4 LE5. I wanted to keep the VVT active, and use the electronic throttle body, so bought an aftermarket ECM from Australia, Ecotec Marine was the company name - no longer in business, but it looks like someone in Christchurch NZ picked up the line, and are selling the parts still.
Transmission - using an F40 Getrag 6 speed from a Saab - will try the stock gearing, but I have a brand new MU9 to swap gearsets if I want the later gears. 2003-2007 Saab 9-3, bellhousing bolts to the Ecotec.
Bought an aftermarket clutch disc with a sprung hub, Cobalt SS pressure plate. Had to make a flywheel - stock Saab flywheel fits the turbo 8 bolt crank pattern, LE5 is 6 bolt. Started with an aftermarket aluminum Fidenza, machined spacers for the rim and friction plate, added about 19mm in depth. Saab t/o bearing.
Welded transmission mounts, Dodge truck rubbers, re-worked cradle to fit. Front mount picks up two M12 bolts on crankcase, and two of the stock M12 mount bolts high on the block. Modified cradle to fit. F40/intermediate shaft installed centered in cradle, engine pan flus with bottom of cradle. Cradle changed to acommodate A/C compressor. LOTS of welding.
Saab intermediate shaft, machined bearing housing and block mount - found later you may be able to buy this. Cobalt SS axles, same both sides - may still need some tweaking.
Buick regal 2011/12 PS pump, alternator, A/c compressor, dampener, brackets and belt setup.
F40 shift cables from Rodney, welded mounts
Exhaust - fabricated header flange, ran between cradle and transmission, up and over cradle to stock cat location, then between pan and cradle back to stock muffler. Some cradle trimming, fair bit of welding.
Set engine/cradle in car, needed to trim strut tower for clearance, will need to use coilovers, more welding.
Set a piece of tubing against trunk wall, between shock towers, to pick up torque strut to back of head. More welding.
Thats about where I am right now. Probably not the easiest way, but my way, and I am pretty confident with what I have done.
Hello everyone, sorry for the delay in responce, It has been a lot of help having people with experience replying to my questions and helping me reach a decision. Thank you so much for taking the time to write a reply to my Questions, It gave me a lot to think about and figuring out to do.
My conclussion was that to me as a noob it will take to much to attempt the ecotec swap and be on a budget. I can not weld and am a noob on the wire-harnass teritory (i once installed a radio, that is my experience in that regard)
Therefore I decided to make the best out of a worse situation and I just bought a crappy Fastback 2.8 automatic from 1886 that runs... so now I have two Fiero's
My goal is now to use both and make a 2.8 Notchback and sell/give away the leftovers to help other fiero's to stay on the road. I no will need to figure out what to do with it.
The notch is a manual (4 speed) 4 cyl from 1984 and the Fastback is a 2.8 automatic. Since I have both options I would prefer to have a manual (if possible a 5 speed) V6.
To me that leaves three options with both challenges in their own right, I would really apreciate your imput.
OPTION ONE: Just Swap the 2.8 into the 84 Notch This feels like taking a shortcut and way to easy, can those brakes handle the V6,does the car need another radiator,engine wireharnass and computer is that easy to swap out and what else would I need, Also can the clutch and paddlebox handle the V6 and do I need another flywheel for the V6? And then there is the registration, In Holland it would require a re-registration of the car since it is registered as a 4 cyl and now is a V6.
OPTION TWO(.one) : Just Swap tNotch body onto the V6 This sounds like the way to go, Just take care with removing the bodypanels, use the wireharnas from the Notch to make the rearlights work properly and swap all panels onto that car. However, If I want a manual gearbox, what would I need from the Notchback to make it work? clutch-assembly,gearbox (or even better a 5-speed) will all these parts bolt on to the 86 chassis?
OPTION TWO.(.two): Just Swap the body and leave it a automatic for now sounds like a fast and cheap solution but if possible I want manual, so it is going to happen someday anyways, but might it save some time and money now or is it more of a waste since everything is there now anyways? Weird question.. what about a sixspeed? are there any that will bolt straight on to the V6? it will be a "daily driver" in the Dutch-citybloke-kinda-way.. meaning it will come out to play whenever I need to do anything that is to far to bike and might have to endure some traficjams but will be mostly used for highway's and hollidays. it needs to be reliable and I am not a racy-driver.. I just want to enjoy the car as much as possible.
Thanks again for reading this and I look forward to your help once more.
[This message has been edited by Erwin03 (edited 04-03-2017).]
