So I have C5 brakes on the front and the Lebarron/Deville upgrade in the rear. I have an S10 master cylinder and S10 booster.
I replaced everything at once, but unfortunately I had to leave one of the lines open for a few days and a ton of air got into the system. Problem is, I can not bleed them and neither can the two shops I have taken it to! The brakes work, but I have to nearly put the pedal to the floor to get them to kick in.
A couple things: - E brake is disconnect - The Master Cylinder did not get bench bled originally, it was put on, I bled the brakes, then removed it to bench bleed it. - The bleed screws on the deville brakes seem to not be on the top, how do you properly bleed those?
What I have tried: - Vacuum bleed (with a tool) - Pressure bleed (partner in the driver seat. Open bleed screw --> push pedal --> close bleed screw --> slow release of the pedal --> fill MC --> repeat)
The brakes work, but the pedal goes to the floor before they actually kick in.
I always get fluid through, but there are ALWAYS bubbles. Any ideas?
[This message has been edited by Threedog (edited 05-08-2020).]
I've always been taught to press the brake and then open the bleeder otherwise you can get air in the lines pump pump hold, open close, pump pump hold......... and so on also it can take quite a while to get all the air out if you have opened both ends of the line i ended up using and entire large bottle of brake fluid when i had to replace brake lines
If your rear Deville brake calipers have their bleed screws on the bottom rather than the top, they are probably on the wrong sides......Could you swap them and would the screws then be on top? (That is the only way you get air out)
After having tried all methods, I have had the best luck on Fieros with the Russell Speed Bleeders. Install the bleeders open 1 / 2 turn pump the brake pedal about times, then close it. Just use the proper sequence. Rr Rt , Rr Lft, Fnt Rt, Fr Lft Just check the fluid level after bleeding two calipers and refill again before you are done. 3o minute job-done.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
After having tried all methods, I have had the best luck on Fieros with the Russell Speed Bleeders. Install the bleeders open 1 / 2 turn pump the brake pedal about times, then close it. Just use the proper sequence. Rr Rt , Rr Lft, Fnt Rt, Fr Lft Just check the fluid level after bleeding two calipers and refill again before you are done. 3o minute job-done.
If the lines are still in the stock configuration, longest to shortest and correct order is left rear, right rear, right front, left front
If the lines are still in the stock configuration, longest to shortest and correct order is left rear, right rear, right front, left front
Explain to us how starting the bleeding process on the left rear could be recommended when the right rear wheel is on the exact opposite side of the master cylinder?
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Explain to us how starting the bleeding process on the left rear could be recommended when the right rear wheel is on the exact opposite side of the master cylinder?
Are you actually being serious and do you not know how the brake lines are ran on a Fiero? Do you know you bleed the farthest caliper first while bleeding the brakes? The left rear caliper is the farthest on a Fiero from the master cylinder the way the lines are routed.
[This message has been edited by Lambo nut (edited 05-09-2020).]
- The bleed screws on the deville brakes seem to not be on the top, how do you properly bleed those?
I have these on my Lambo project and you need to remove the calipers from the rotors to flip them upright with the bleeder screws up and put something in there of similar thickness of the rotors if you go to pressure bleed in any way. I used gravity and a mighty vac combo and did it myself.
I have these on my Lambo project and you need to remove the calipers from the rotors to flip them upright with the bleeder screws up and put something in there of similar thickness of the rotors if you go to pressure bleed in any way. I used gravity and a mighty vac combo and did it myself.
Lambo nut is correct. I did it the same way using a Mighty Vac. You have to flip the calipers and insert a shim of equal or marginally greater thickness as the rotors. Bleed the calipers starting from the one furthermost from the master cylinder. This is actually the RR because of the way the brakelines run. Then LR, RF, and LF. After bleeding, make sure the bleed screw is closed, remove the shim, flip the caliper upside down and install.
(A hint that works for for me: I use speed bleeders in my calipers. I know that some folks don't like them but I've had good luck with them in my Fieros and bikes. I just top up the master cylinder, connect the Mighty Vac to the speed bleeder, crack off the speed bleeder and pump away. It pulls fluid through the lines pretty quickly so you need to make sure the MC doesn't go dry and suck air. )
------------------ Mike in Sydney
[This message has been edited by Mike in Sydney (edited 05-09-2020).]
Bleed the calipers starting from the one furthermost from the master cylinder. This is actually the RR because of the way the brakelines run. Then LR, RF, and LF.
...
This is getting too weird.
I don't know if your Fiero in Australia has been modified (everything swapped sides) for right-hand drive or what.... but from the factory, the Left Rear brake caliper is the furthest along the brake line from the master cylinder.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 05-09-2020).]
Patrick, I stand corrected. You got me on the length. But the recommended bleeding wheel sequence for bleeding is Right Rear, Left Rear, Right Front, and Left Front. My source is page BRAKES 5-7, step 4 in the manual bleed instructions in the '86 Factory Service Manual. (The '87 FSM shows the same sequence page BRAKES 5-9.) I've always used this sequence but I'm interested to know if going LR, RR, RF, LF is better.
If the rear bleeder screws are not at the top, you might try removing one of the caliper bolts and rotating the caliper up to get the bleeder screw in the the proper location.
Also, check the rear calipers. The parking brake system within the caliper determines where the piston comes to rest when the pedal is released. If there is more than 2 playing cards gap, then every time you push the pedal, the first thing that happens is you will have to push the pistons to the rotor before any pressure builds, which means you will have a very soft pedal for the first several inches of travel.
The method I use for bleeding is use a pop bottle, fill 1" in the bottom with brake fluid, drill a hole in the cap and install a hose. Submerge the hose in the bottle and connect the other end to the bleeder. Crack the bleeder open and slowly press the brake pedal to the floor. This will push air/brake fluid out the hose and into the bottle. The submerged hose will keep air from being pulled back in on pedal release (using grease on the threads of the bleeder will help get an air tight seal). I normally cycle the pedal 3 times over about 3 minutes, then let it gravity bleed for 5 minutes, close the bleeder, then press the pedal once before moving on the next.
The key to any bleeding process is go slow. If there is air in the system, any quick movement of the fluid will bust up large air pockets into hundreds of little air bubbles which you will never get out. If that happens, you have to wait 30 minutes for the bubbles to consolidate into larger bubbles and do it again... slowly.
Patrick, I stand corrected. You got me on the length. But the recommended bleeding wheel sequence for bleeding is Right Rear, Left Rear, Right Front, and Left Front. My source is page BRAKES 5-7, step 4 in the manual bleed instructions in the '86 Factory Service Manual. (The '87 FSM shows the same sequence page BRAKES 5-9.) I've always used this sequence but I'm interested to know if going LR, RR, RF, LF is better.
I follow the procedure outlined in the factory Helms manual starting from the right rear.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
...the recommended bleeding wheel sequence for bleeding is Right Rear, Left Rear, Right Front, and Left Front. My source is page BRAKES 5-7, step 4 in the manual bleed instructions in the '86 Factory Service Manual. I've always used this sequence but I'm interested to know if going LR, RR, RF, LF is better.
Mike, we all seem to agree that bleeding is to be done starting with the furthest caliper from the master... yet there still seems to be this blind allegiance to the service manual when it's obviously wrong!
On a conventional left-hand drive vehicle, the brake master cylinder is towards the Left Front. The rear brake line then tees off somewhere in the back. If the tee is closer to the left side, which isn't unusual as the brake line often runs down the same side (left) as the master, then the furthest caliper is the Right Rear.
If the tee is in the middle, then it really isn't critical at all which rear caliper is bled first.
It was therefore safe to state in 99.99% of all service manuals (for left-hand drive vehicles) that the bleeding sequence should be Right Rear, Left Rear, Right Front, Left Front. The Fiero is an oddball however, as the rear tee is literally only a few inches from the Right Rear caliper. There is no doubt then that the Left Rear caliper on our Fieros is the furthest from the brake master.
Yes, the Fiero factory service manuals are indeed wrong! We've had more than 30 years to recognize this error... and to act accordingly!
I too want to hold the FSM as high and mighty ... but then I find things like
"Parking brake levers (2) on both calipes should be against the lever stops on the calilper housings." [1987 FSM, page 5B83 Parking Brake Adjustment section 6.]
So is it a "caliper", a "calipe", or a "calilper"? If Pontiac couldn't be bothered to even proof-read their stuff at the most basic level, how do we do know the technical information is at all accurate? Grumble.
A calipe sounds like a French breakfast dish ... and a calilper is what, a caliper from Liliput?
I am so thankful for Internet forums and Fiero nerds like y'all.
-- A
[This message has been edited by dremu (edited 05-09-2020).]
LOL. Dang, Mother McCree. What a hornets nest I've opened without meaning to. Now we're at Right rear 1st, Left rear 1st, FSM misprints & errors.
I see the logic in starting with the left rear. I've not done it that way and I've never had a problem following the FSM sequence (maybe I've been lucky?). I will try the LR, RR, RF, LF sequence the next time I have to bleed the brakes on one. That's the great thing about this Forum, ideas and information. Heck, I've had a Fiero or two since 1989 and this Forum has helped me keep them running.
Anyway, back to the original topic, IMO, sequence not withstanding, the correct way to bleed Seville calipers mounted on the rear is to take the caliper off the mount, insert a shim equal to or marginally thicker than the rotor between the pads, turn the caliper so the bleed screw is on top, bleed the caliper and reinstall, and check and adjust the parking brake.
As Forest Gump said, "And that's all I have to say about that."
Y'all take care and be safe.
------------------ Mike in Sydney
[This message has been edited by Mike in Sydney (edited 05-09-2020).]
So, I had the calipers removed and bled with a shim, but now I have another issue, the pedal wont come back up. The brakes are super responsive and work fantastically, but the pedal takes a few seconds to return. Any ideas?
Do the brakes stay on after you press the pedal down? If he brakes stay on, it could be the brake booster is assisting when it shouldn't. To verify this, you could disconnect the vacuum pipe that goes to the booster to see if the pedal the raises. If the pedal returns to normal position after the engine has been turned off for a while, that points to a booster issue
Do the brakes stay on after you press the pedal down? If he brakes stay on, it could be the brake booster is assisting when it shouldn't. To verify this, you could disconnect the vacuum pipe that goes to the booster to see if the pedal the raises. If the pedal returns to normal position after the engine has been turned off for a while, that points to a booster issue
This is exactly what it is. The shop that bled the brakes actually said that the booster is working "too well" and not allowing the return spring to operate. The booster an S10 booster from summit and brand new..the master and one caliper was bad as well, I can't imagine I got THAT many bad new parts..
I ordered a new vacuum pressure regulator to see if that fixes the issue. Anything else that could cause it?
By pressure regulator, do you mean the vacuum booster check valve? It's rarely checked but should be (IMO) replaced regularly, especially when the booster is replaced. It's not too expensive.
