Fiero-Fiasco Article (Page 2/3)
hyperv6 MAR 07, 07:16 AM

quote
Originally posted by lorennerol:


My garage holds two fantastic two-seat sports cars built by GM. The Fiero lasted 4.5 years. The Saturn Sky lasted three. Both died, in part (but not entirely), due to corner cutting that caused owner headaches. In a world where Mazda has been pumping out and selling Miatas for two decades, the sales issues both had weren't, in my opinion, inevitable.

Oh, and GM scrapped the hydro-forming dies for the Sky hood. Not entirely dissimilar to them selling the GT tail light molds (which were subsequently lost).

GM....what could have been with these cars. A Sky with an upgraded interior and a next-gen Ecotec...



The Saturn connection was strictly the use of the plastic body. The Fiero was the test bed for this. In fact the 4 seat Fiero was the start of it all.

As for the Sky. I loved the car but it was build leading into Chapter 11 and Lutz was lucky to even get the car to market.

The real killer was the fact the car was not sold globally. The key to the Mazda is it is sold just about everywhere in the world and you can see it nearly ever country. The Kappa cars were sold here and some limited sales in Europe and very limited in Korea.

Most low price two seat cars never live past 10-15 years as development cost are high and the volumes are very low so profits are limited.

The Miata with global sales can get away with selling 10K cars per market and sell 50K a year as just in America they only average yearly 12K-18k cars over a body style run. Even then they had to sell the new platform to Fiat to screw up and use as their own. If not for that there was a big change it may have gone away.

To be honest the Fiero even if not canceled may not have live more than 5 years more even in the best of conditions. The Kappas even if Saturn had lived as with Pontiac the twins had little future due to the few markets and the low volumes they were sold in. Economics are just tough on low price low volume sports cars.

This is why most 2 seat sports cars are so expensive as that is the only real way to keep them alive and profitable.

Number one rule on low price sports cars. If you want one get one soon as 5-10 years odds are it will be gone.

Also with the Saturn the plastic panels are not just for them. GM used them on several other models in full or limited use. Things did not go as well and they scrapped the program and returned to steel and aluminum.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 03-07-2017).]

2.5 MAR 07, 08:51 AM
It looks like the 93 Camaro / Firebird got its roof from the GM80 - and the Saturn got most everything below the roof, visually at least.

Good points hyperv6 about numbers, talking Fiero / Miata.

Annual sales figures for the Mazda MX-5 Miata in the US.
2016 9,465
2015 8,591
2014 4,745
2013 5,780
2012 6,305
2011 5,674
2010 6,370
2009 7,917
2008 10,977
2007 15,075
2006 16,897
2005 9,801
2004 9,356
2003 10,920
2002 14,392
2001 16,486
2000 18,299
1999 17,738
1998 19,845
1997 17,218
1996 18,408
1995 20,174
1994 21,400
1993 21,588
1992 24,964
1991 31,240
1990 35,944
1989 23,052
1988 0

PONTIAC FIERO NUMBERS YEAR TOTAL:
1984 136,840
1985 76,371
1986 83,974
1987 46,581
1988 26,401
TOTAL 370,167

lorennerol MAR 07, 12:06 PM

quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:
The Saturn connection was strictly the use of the plastic body.



I knew that's what you meant, just couldn't resist tossing in some other similarities. Speaking of which...


quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:
As for the Sky. I loved the car but it was build leading into Chapter 11 and Lutz was lucky to even get the car to market.



This also fits: "...and Hulki was lucky to even get the car to market."

But I don't think anyone at GM considered bankruptcy a real possibility when the Kappa production was green lighted in 2004ish.

Kappa (Solstice, Sky, G2X, Opel GT) production:

2006: 21,273 (Solstice only)
2007: 42,950 (Sky, G2X, Opel GT come online, along with the GXP and Redline models with the 2.0 turbo)
2008: 34,100
2009: 9,305 (production ceased in July 2009)
2010: 30 (a handful of 2010s were assembled and later auctioned during the bankruptcy)

I don't think it was Chapter 11 as much as it was the implosion of the economy that did in the car. It was bad...really bad from the September 2008 collapse of Lehman Brothers and the ensuing chaos...a lot of people lost their homes and few had the disposable income required for a car like a Kappa: Two seats and almost no trunk- the Fiero is more practical.

Coincidentally, the plunge in calendar year 2008 Kappa production started one month after the Lehman collapse: In November 2008, 0 (zero) Kappas were built. Same with Jan and Feb of 2009. The Wilmington factory never got back to full time, though there was a bit of a surge from March until July (1/4 to 1/3 of previous monthly production) as the rumors started flying that the previous plan to move Gen II of the car to the Bowling Green Corvette plant had been scrapped along with the entire platform- people who had been sitting on the fence got in.

Regardless, I'm glad to have both in my garage.
hyperv6 MAR 07, 07:19 PM

quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

It looks like the 93 Camaro / Firebird got its roof from the GM80 - and the Saturn got most everything below the roof, visually at least.

Good points hyperv6 about numbers, talking Fiero / Miata.

Annual sales figures for the Mazda MX-5 Miata in the US.
2016 9,465
2015 8,591
2014 4,745
2013 5,780
2012 6,305
2011 5,674
2010 6,370
2009 7,917
2008 10,977
2007 15,075
2006 16,897
2005 9,801
2004 9,356
2003 10,920
2002 14,392
2001 16,486
2000 18,299
1999 17,738
1998 19,845
1997 17,218
1996 18,408
1995 20,174
1994 21,400
1993 21,588
1992 24,964
1991 31,240
1990 35,944
1989 23,052
1988 0

PONTIAC FIERO NUMBERS YEAR TOTAL:
1984 136,840
1985 76,371
1986 83,974
1987 46,581
1988 26,401
TOTAL 370,167



Those are only the numbers in North America. You get the numbers globally and you will see where the volume is to cover them. Japan and Europe account for much as does the Middle East and Australia. There are a number of South American sales and the big one China.

Take all these markets and add them up and you will find a good number of cars. But even with that number development cost are high.

Just look at the RX7 and MR2. They both had short lives for the most part. The MR2 Died twice. The Honda roadster only lasted how many years?

To be honest the Corvette has been on the bubble several times and was saved. Once it was canceled in the early 90's and only for the manger that ignored the order to kill it is what kept it alive. He paid for it with his future at GM as he never went anywhere after that.

This is why the Corvette people worried about the Fiero as even the small sales it may have taken may have been enough to kill their car.

As for the styling there was much more to it than shown here. The cars really had more styling to them. Some of it was used on the last restyle of the last 3th gen Bird and Formula. They took some of it from a AWD GTO show car that was only shown once. Rumors are it is still in the tech center but no photos have been seen since it was shown in the early 90's. It was canceled by then.

The truth is the 1990 Fiero shared more with the 5th Gen F body than any thing. Take a profile photo of each and you can see they just upsized the car to fit the F body platform.

Might also note the dash gauge panel is almost identical to the F body.

Also the 4th Gen got plastic doors and fenders along with a halo.

There is just so much to this and so many people have never connected the dots.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 03-07-2017).]

hyperv6 MAR 07, 07:27 PM

quote
Originally posted by lorennerol:


This also fits: "...and Hulki was lucky to even get the car to market."

But I don't think anyone at GM considered bankruptcy a real possibility when the Kappa production was green lighted in 2004ish.

Kappa (Solstice, Sky, G2X, Opel GT) production:

2006: 21,273 (Solstice only)
2007: 42,950 (Sky, G2X, Opel GT come online, along with the GXP and Redline models with the 2.0 turbo)
2008: 34,100
2009: 9,305 (production ceased in July 2009)
2010: 30 (a handful of 2010s were assembled and later auctioned during the bankruptcy)

I don't think it was Chapter 11 as much as it was the implosion of the economy that did in the car. It was bad...really bad from the September 2008 collapse of Lehman Brothers and the ensuing chaos...a lot of people lost their homes and few had the disposable income required for a car like a Kappa: Two seats and almost no trunk- the Fiero is more practical.

Coincidentally, the plunge in calendar year 2008 Kappa production started one month after the Lehman collapse: In November 2008, 0 (zero) Kappas were built. Same with Jan and Feb of 2009. The Wilmington factory never got back to full time, though there was a bit of a surge from March until July (1/4 to 1/3 of previous monthly production) as the rumors started flying that the previous plan to move Gen II of the car to the Bowling Green Corvette plant had been scrapped along with the entire platform- people who had been sitting on the fence got in.

Regardless, I'm glad to have both in my garage.



Here is what happened to the Kappa.

Lutz arrived and was given the task to fix GM. Well they told him to do it but you have no money to fix it. He looks at Pontiac and here is a Performance division with no RWD performance car????

So since he had no money the Monaro was his only option for a GTO. His hope was to buy time with it as they worked on the Alpha Camaro and he planned to use it for a longer wheel base GTO.

The truth was they had so little money the hood scoops and true duel exhaust on each side had to wait as there was no money for it.

The Kappa was born much like the Fiero and a parts bin. They had much better parts but many compromises had to happen. Also they tried to keep to the show car as much as they could. That is a mixed blessing as while it looks great it also makes for a car often with issues compromised by the stying. It was heavy and no trunk. The interior was small but it looked stunning.

As for the economy for sure it was part of the issue but so were the compromises of the car. Also the reality was GM knew they were going broke but they hoped to delay it till the bank crisis pretty much pushed them over the edge. They hoped that the new products would help secure loans like Ford got but by the time they needed the money the banks had no money to loan hence the bail out.

2.5 MAR 08, 09:08 AM

quote
Originally posted by hyperv6:


Those are only the numbers in North America. You get the numbers globally and you will see where the volume is to cover them. Japan and Europe account for much as does the Middle East and Australia. There are a number of South American sales and the big one China.





Yep since Fiero was America sold I figured that list is apples to apples, showing Fiero did well.
hyperv6 MAR 08, 08:28 PM

quote
Originally posted by 2.5:


Yep since Fiero was America sold I figured that list is apples to apples, showing Fiero did well.



The problem is they did too well.

They over sold the car and as sales dropped to about where they needed to be the lack of a sister car in the plant kiled them.

Pontiac took a risk to build the Fiero in the plant before a second car was available. To make the plant viable they over sold the car. Then sales dropped.

Even with the second gen sales would continue to decline as they flooded the market with a two seat car that most people drove only on weekends. Most people for one can not live with a daily 2 seat driver so it is a third car. This means they have a low mile car in the garage and few will trade it for a new model. So the primary market would have been saturated.

Some of the GM people I know have said that many inside Pontiac really did not think the Fiero would live forever but they were willing to take the chance. We must remember at this time Pontiac was in worse shape than Olds and was in risk of being removed.

So taking the chance was worth it. The Fiero many at GM feel was responsible for pulling people into Pontiac dealers and helping get the Grand Am discovered that really saved Pontiac where as Olds died from that point on with the loss of the RWD Cutlass.

It is a lot of economics of scale deals here and GM was failing for a long time in many ways. The Fiero is a time capsule of many of the things GM was doing right and what they were doing wrong. Their divisions were their worst enemies not Honda and Ford.
FieroLost MAR 11, 01:22 AM
Gentlemen, the definitive story has already been written, in the top selling book "Crash, the rise and fall of the American Automotive Industry", by Paul Ingrassia of the Wall Street Journal. In fact he dedicated a whole chapter to the Fiero. All of your theories are presented and somewhat validated. The facts and documentation are presented, you can read most of the chapter for free on GoogleBooks. Its demise was a failure of management ineptitude and division infighting, market limitations (economy driven), poor quality control and strained labor relations. Everything was put in context in the book.
Sitting together with your knowledgeable friends, lamenting the demise of the Fiero, without the documentation to back up your theory, only provides a fictional story. Possibly true, but unverifiable. Paul Ingrassia is an automotive business journalist who had the first hand accounts from the players at the time, from management, engineers, designers, and blue collar workers and leaders, about what transpired to bring down the Fiero.
All of your theories are addressed in that chapter, and put into perspective correctly. I have the book and it is riveting.
hyperv6 MAR 11, 09:42 AM

quote
Originally posted by FieroLost:

Gentlemen, the definitive story has already been written, in the top selling book "Crash, the rise and fall of the American Automotive Industry", by Paul Ingrassia of the Wall Street Journal. In fact he dedicated a whole chapter to the Fiero. All of your theories are presented and somewhat validated. The facts and documentation are presented, you can read most of the chapter for free on GoogleBooks. Its demise was a failure of management ineptitude and division infighting, market limitations (economy driven), poor quality control and strained labor relations. Everything was put in context in the book.
Sitting together with your knowledgeable friends, lamenting the demise of the Fiero, without the documentation to back up your theory, only provides a fictional story. Possibly true, but unverifiable. Paul Ingrassia is an automotive business journalist who had the first hand accounts from the players at the time, from management, engineers, designers, and blue collar workers and leaders, about what transpired to bring down the Fiero.
All of your theories are addressed in that chapter, and put into perspective correctly. I have the book and it is riveting.




I am well aware of the book and it is a very good read and t more of the internal story of the car but it only covers some of the whole story. There is still much more to it than the limited space it was given in the book.

Note I would like to get Fred and Ron involved as the three of us have spoke to most main players and have documented the history. This would not be a theory piece but one brought from the many we have spoken to and can speak to again.

Note Fred has recorded many interviews. That being said it is key the right people are involved in this to get the story straight.

Note I do also recommend the book you speak of as it goes farther than most but it like others still falls short of a complete history. That book is only a couple chapters of a complete history.
FieroLost MAR 11, 05:49 PM
The other book dearest to our heart,

Fiero: Pontiac's Potent Mid Engine Sports Car Hardcover – September, 1987
by Gary Witzenburg (Author)

details the making from beginning to end the Fiero. I'm just skeptical ( though I'm interested ) about what your story could tell, that would be proved factual. Face it, the Fiero was doomed based on the facts as spelled out in Paul Ingrassia's book, was never going to be resurrected or saved. GM was in the business of "making money not cars", and the same goes for all car companies then and now (sadly because of poor executive, were losing money to the tune of billions of dollars annually throughout the 80's). Quotes and interviews from lower level managers and engineers is now just opinion or gossip.

Furthermore, Chevrolet was never going to allow sales of the Corvette and Camaro, to be further eroded by the Fiero, All sports performance cars of that era saw huge drops in sales, the Corvette and the MR2 had less than 20,00 produced in 1988. But, the Toyota MR2 production was exponentially more efficient (and actually made money), and GM could not absorb losses from 2 or 3 competing products within its own organization. Even had the Fiero been a raging success (which it was, except for it's defeating and ultimately death defying warranty claims), the GM and American Automotive Systems cannot absorb 2, 3 or 4 models of 20,000 annual production cars competing against one another with profit margins so slim. This is well documented too. All of the decision makers, from the board room to the executives, have been interviewed first and secondhand, and the Fiero's demise was substantiated based on Ingrassia's rigorous journalistic investigation (he connected the dots, irrefutable). The design and production engineers at mid and lower levels were neutered from interfering in management decision making, and always have been. Quotes and interviews from lower level managers and engineers is just opinion or gossip, does not make what they say true, and will only add to the many myths. Your beating a dead horse. Your story will only be an interesting read, propagating innuendo that cannot undo the facts.

Yet, I can't wait to hear what you have to say