Fiero-Fiasco Article (Page 3/3) hyperv6 MAR 11, 07:45 PM quote Originally posted by FieroLost: The other book dearest to our heart, Fiero: Pontiac's Potent Mid Engine Sports Car Hardcover – September, 1987 by Gary Witzenburg (Author) details the making from beginning to end the Fiero. I'm just skeptical ( though I'm interested ) about what your story could tell, that would be proved factual. Face it, the Fiero was doomed based on the facts as spelled out in Paul Ingrassia's book, was never going to be resurrected or saved. GM was in the business of "making money not cars", and the same goes for all car companies then and now (sadly because of poor executive, were losing money to the tune of billions of dollars annually throughout the 80's). Quotes and interviews from lower level managers and engineers is now just opinion or gossip. Furthermore, Chevrolet was never going to allow sales of the Corvette and Camaro, to be further eroded by the Fiero, All sports performance cars of that era saw huge drops in sales, the Corvette and the MR2 had less than 20,00 produced in 1988. But, the Toyota MR2 production was exponentially more efficient (and actually made money), and GM could not absorb losses from 2 or 3 competing products within its own organization. Even had the Fiero been a raging success (which it was, except for it's defeating and ultimately death defying warranty claims), the GM and American Automotive Systems cannot absorb 2, 3 or 4 models of 20,000 annual production cars competing against one another with profit margins so slim. This is well documented too. All of the decision makers, from the board room to the executives, have been interviewed first and secondhand, and the Fiero's demise was substantiated based on Ingrassia's rigorous journalistic investigation (he connected the dots, irrefutable). The design and production engineers at mid and lower levels were neutered from interfering in management decision making, and always have been. Quotes and interviews from lower level managers and engineers is just opinion or gossip, does not make what they say true, and will only add to the many myths. Your beating a dead horse. Your story will only be an interesting read, propagating innuendo that cannot undo the facts. Yet, I can't wait to hear what you have to say Lost I am not so sure why you are so bent on picking a fight here? With 18 post you may not really know the back ground of the people I stated I wanted in on this project. Garys book is good as it covers many details but keep in mind it was a book that was the sanitized version according to GM. Hence none of the dirt. Gary had done many books for GM and they are all very interesting but all were to the degree GM wanted. Note Gary was employed by GM as was his wife so he only wrote what they wanted stated. As for Ingrassia's book I agree most of what you post is true but there were even more dirty details that were left out such as the cancellation of the GM 80 and how Chevy used it as leverage to kill the car. Pauls info is spot on but it is limited as it is only a small part of a very good book. As for the people I want involved yes they have spoken to the mid level people but people like Fred had spent time with all the main players and gathered the info first hand. He knew Hulki well and also the other main players. He is still in touch with many and he is the best Fiero Historian there is. Paul also is from Michigan and knew many of the people. As for me I have been lucky to meet and hear many speak first hand. I also have collected documents since the late 70's on the car as well investigated prototype Fiero parts some that I own and have gotten to meet some of the people left over from the original program. One let me read the documents from meeting where they canceled the car. So this is not just here say and opinion. The point of getting a good core group is to provide info that will prevent any more poor info going out as all of us have worked hard to gather info to prevent anymore false storys. God knows we all cringe every time the Lotus fable comes up. As of now I am trying to get info from Tom Goad the suspension guy. I saw a while back in an interview with him he stated the suspension was all GM design and how proud they were of it. He did say that they did turn the tuning of the second gen suspension over to Porsche Engineering. He stated that they worked on the turn in and scrub radius to tune the feel into the car. GM knew Porsche was good at this since the 911 had a good feel and no power steering. Porsche Engineering did much outside work such as Lotus did for other companies. Also you may note in Garys book he states about the Porsche Eater 2.9 Turbo cars. They both has Porsche Eater in the tail lamps when the brakes lights came on. They were forced to remove them because according to Gary Porsche was doing some work for GM. Now if you take the time line of the second gen suspension and car it was well in the works by 85-86 and the time line fits the Porsche eater cars. I also can verify based on my engineering prints on a 1990 part the work was well under way in 1985. Also note that they were working on plastic wheels for the car. In some clay models you can see they had the wheels on the car. They were the silver wheels not the gold. Yes they were plastic as Fred has one of only a couple still around. I am working to get more info on them from someone I know that was directly involved with the wheels. So lost I really don't have to justify anything to you as we are people that have been at this for more years than the car has been around. I bought my car in 85 and still have it. I also have all the info I collected leading up to the car over the years. I also have accumulated much more since. The deal with this story is so many things were going on at so many levels it is amazing the car ever got built and with what happened it is no surprise it died. Getting the details that we have learned into a data base where it can be looked at and shared will keep the full story intact vs. just a chapter or two in a good book but one that only covers the high spots. There are other books and interview in publication I own that also lend to the story. Dave McLellans book Inside the Corvette he detals the dealing on the mid engine Vette in the 70's. He also shares how the one proposal that was done in the tech center for a mid engine car was turned down by the Vette team but was later offered to Hulki to use and improve. The puzzle pieces are out there and we can and should put them into one place. All that you state here is what we already know but inside GM there was many a political infighting and while we know why things happened it was done in channels in much different ways. Pontiac fought back but Losh the new head of Pontiac really did not care. As stated I have been told by a few they did not expect the car to last long. The key is it keep Pontiac alive and helped as part of their return to popularity in the 80's and 90's. The car did its job till Pontiac was mismanaged back into cancellation due to no global market and at the end few real performance cars for a division that claimed performance. There is just too much to cover here. You can be skeptical if you like but many here can vouch for those I have named that I would like involved. They are well known and as well informed. Even more than some that worked on the program as many have forgotten much as it was just another job for them not a study. FieroLost MAR 12, 12:00 AM Hyperv6 With all due respect, it is not my intent to pick a fight. I believe skepticism is healthy, I have an opinion, I too am informed, and don't feel that I have to post incessantly to achieve cred on this forum. Yet, I applaud your intent to provide more on the history of the Fiero...how strange is that? In fact, I stated I'm looking forward to what you and the other respected members have to say about the demise of the Fiero. There is no need for you to get your back up. And yes you don't need to justify or seek my approval to get your story out. Carry on. But, because someone may be a relatively new registered User, should not imply that one has not used the resources available or followed intently the many interesting threads on this forum prior. I have followed Pennocks since the very early days, and have been a Fiero owner since 1986, having owned 6 in total, and currently own a stock 86GT and a modified 88GT 3800SC 5-speed. Both are showroom mint condition examples of Fieros that were, and could have been. My enthusiasm and admiration for Hulki and what his team achieved in the Fiero is unwaivering. I too have friends, retired engineers (in fact one was a good friend of one of John DeLoreans brothers) from GM, who acknowledge that Paul Ingrassia's book is the definitive synopsis, unfiltered, of what transpired at GM during the time that included the Fiero story.. My intent writing here was to bring to the attention of the readers of this forum the existence and importance of the book Comeback, The Fall and Rise of the American Automobile Industry, copyrighted 1994. Most everything that you just spoke of is in the book, a book you failed to mention or acknowledge until I brought it to light. Because, what you present can only be an addendum to this book, seeing as you indicate having supporting documentation. I mean no disrespect to you or your cohorts, just wanting to point out that It was this book that exposed in detail the problems at GM. Your anecdotes and historical artifacts intrigue me, as already you have outlined some interesting tidbits that do need to be corroborated and collated to add to the historical data regarding the Fiero. The infighting and mismanagement was well known and has been documented, and I am again, looking forward to what you have to add that might elaborate further on the discourse prevalent throughout GM at the time. hyperv6 MAR 12, 07:56 AM quote Originally posted by FieroLost: Hyperv6 With all due respect, it is not my intent to pick a fight. I believe skepticism is healthy, I have an opinion, I too am informed, and don't feel that I have to post incessantly to achieve cred on this forum. Yet, I applaud your intent to provide more on the history of the Fiero...how strange is that? In fact, I stated I'm looking forward to what you and the other respected members have to say about the demise of the Fiero. There is no need for you to get your back up. And yes you don't need to justify or seek my approval to get your story out. Carry on. But, because someone may be a relatively new registered User, should not imply that one has not used the resources available or followed intently the many interesting threads on this forum prior. I have followed Pennocks since the very early days, and have been a Fiero owner since 1986, having owned 6 in total, and currently own a stock 86GT and a modified 88GT 3800SC 5-speed. Both are showroom mint condition examples of Fieros that were, and could have been. My enthusiasm and admiration for Hulki and what his team achieved in the Fiero is unwaivering. I too have friends, retired engineers (in fact one was a good friend of one of John DeLoreans brothers) from GM, who acknowledge that Paul Ingrassia's book is the definitive synopsis, unfiltered, of what transpired at GM during the time that included the Fiero story.. My intent writing here was to bring to the attention of the readers of this forum the existence and importance of the book Comeback, The Fall and Rise of the American Automobile Industry, copyrighted 1994. Most everything that you just spoke of is in the book, a book you failed to mention or acknowledge until I brought it to light. Because, what you present can only be an addendum to this book, seeing as you indicate having supporting documentation. I mean no disrespect to you or your cohorts, just wanting to point out that It was this book that exposed in detail the problems at GM. Your anecdotes and historical artifacts intrigue me, as already you have outlined some interesting tidbits that do need to be corroborated and collated to add to the historical data regarding the Fiero. The infighting and mismanagement was well known and has been documented, and I am again, looking forward to what you have to add that might elaborate further on the discourse prevalent throughout GM at the time. Sorry but the couple chapters as accurate as they are do not cover the whole story. You may be fine with the readers digest version but I am not. As for the people I want involved there reputations are beyon question when it come to the car. Question as you like but I would stand behind the info. As for you you may know things but then again you remain a unknown with only a couple chapters. Fiero Vice MAR 12, 10:34 PM Hyperv6, Interesting! What you have said makes sense! I cannot wait until the whole story is completed so I can read it. If you have drafts that you could share, I'd love to read it. hyperv6 MAR 13, 06:06 AM quote Originally posted by Fiero Vice: Hyperv6, Interesting! What you have said makes sense! I cannot wait until the whole story is completed so I can read it. If you have drafts that you could share, I'd love to read it. No drafts yet I have just been working to get the others on board. I have part of the documentation to reference but the others have much more and to do this right I can not do it alone. We each have collected material and it needs to all be put together to make for a compete story. I don't see anyone getting a book made as it is difficult even for a real author and often not much money in it to help get it done. I have spoken to several Pontiac authors and most have been reluctant to take on this story. I know the others have busy lives but I would be willing to do the bulk of the writing just to even get it put on line somewhere save to where it is available to read and used as a point of reference. I am no Mark Twain but I have written many stories and even got paid for them in some magazines over the years. I think I could get it put together. At least I would give it a try and qualified help would always be welcomed. The bottom line we just need to get all the info out there. I have considered even just doing a list of facts and answers to many myths. Just something to get the complete truth and little known facts out. I just worry if it is not done now much of this info could be lost. Fiero Vice MAR 14, 06:35 PM I can’t believe no Pontiac authors wouldn’t touch this story. It's a fantastic story to read from all sides. Also, I’m sure it would make a great study case for business schools. I’m also no writer either, only specialist in taxes, accounting, finance & investment. I hope someone can push this thru. I would hate to see all those information get lost too. Have you tried other auto authors? There has to be someone who would be willing to take on this project. A list of facts & answers is a good start, but would it leave out a lot of information? I agree we need to get all the information out there! Now is the time! We gotta make it happen! hyperv6 MAR 14, 09:47 PM quote Originally posted by Fiero Vice: I can’t believe no Pontiac authors wouldn’t touch this story. It's a fantastic story to read from all sides. Also, I’m sure it would make a great study case for business schools. I’m also no writer either, only specialist in taxes, accounting, finance & investment. I hope someone can push this thru. I would hate to see all those information get lost too. Have you tried other auto authors? There has to be someone who would be willing to take on this project. A list of facts & answers is a good start, but would it leave out a lot of information? I agree we need to get all the information out there! Now is the time! We gotta make it happen! I have spoken to several and most are reluctant. Writing a book today that is not a tell all of someone famous is basically a labor of love. Generally it takes a lot of time and investment and there is little return for the author. Don Keefe just put out a Pontiac book and much of it is older HPP magazine Project X storied. It is a great book but one he wrote one car at a time over years. But he still has to Hussel and promote it selling it at many events even though it is in stores. The publisher gets most of the reward. I really thing a publisher would love the story as a case study of what was wrong at GM on many levels. Also it can show what was right but overshadowed at GM. Either way the info needs to be disseminated somewhere that it can be used as a reference. 2.5 MAR 15, 01:02 PM quote Originally posted by hyperv6: I have considered even just doing a list of facts and answers to many myths. Just something to get the complete truth and little known facts out. I just worry if it is not done now much of this info could be lost. ... Either way the info needs to be disseminated somewhere that it can be used as a reference. I agree. As for peoples reluctance in writing a book I would think even after data, facts and knowledge are compiled and hashed out a book is still years out. I wouldn't worry about a book at this point. The knowledge documented is important though. 2.5 MAR 15, 01:04 PM quote Originally posted by hyperv6: As for the people I want involved yes they have spoken to the mid level people but people like Fred had spent time with all the main players and gathered the info first hand. He knew Hulki well and also the other main players. He is still in touch with many and he is the best Fiero Historian there is. I agree. TheDigitalAlchemist JUN 09, 01:36 AM UGH. I worked with Paul for about 12 years, back when I worked at the Journal...had no idea about any of this. The book or any of it... Saw something earlier today, saw his name in an article about the Fiero and started digging a little. Was going to ping him about the Fiero stuff and learned that he had passed away back in 2019. https://www.wsj.com/article...es-at-69-11568655489 He was a nice guy.