Jack Stands ...In Honor & Memory of Ethan Allen (yourfriendethan) (Page 3/5)
cvxjet AUG 01, 12:33 PM
Very sad news...To finally get your dream car and then to.....well, it is just a horrible situation.


A coupe of things about jacks- A) position them properly; The Fiero is kind of a dangerous car because it has a couple of places that "Look like real structure" but in fact are not- in front of the rear wheel wells is the most dangerous- I have seen numerous Fieros at the JYs that have fallen because they position the supports there. I usually (99% of the time) place the jack at the center of the rear subframe crossmember- I actually made a small centering mark because it is deceiving. At the front, I once again usually jack at the center of the subframe crossmember. Jack stands at the rear are usually positioned in the flat spots below the rear mounts, while at the front I usually position them as far out on the front subframe crossmember.

B) I ALWAYS shake the car (Strongly) before crawling under it- I'd rather it fell WITHOUT me under it than while I am under there....

C) When jacking and lowering, remember that the lift arm of your floor jack not only moves up and down but swings so as it reaches the upper limit it is trying to move the car- I have lowered it onto jack stands and had it surge forward (SCARY) I always position blocks in front and back of the ground tires so it can't move, and also position the caster wheels on the jack so they will allow the jack to move in the right direction...Critically, I always CHECK the blocks before my NEXT lift/drop; As you jack it up, it will tend to pull up onto your blocks, so you need to then go and reposition the blocks on the other side of the tires- the Blocks on BOTH sides of the ground tires should always be TIGHT against the tires!

D) When jacking, always try to position the jack fore-&-aft.....Then your tire blocks can control most of the movement. At the front I usually have to position the jack diagonal...which then leads to lateral thrust as you jack and lower- make sure that A) wheels at back are fully blocked, and B) the jack is positioned so it will ROLL which eliminates lateral loading on the car. When you then LOWER the car onto jacks, do not have a long ways to go- lift the car only enough to slip the stands in, then carefully lower the car back down (Only 1/4" if possible)
IMSA GT AUG 01, 12:41 PM
One of the things that I noticed in his thread was a picture of his car parked in a gravel carport. I'm hoping he didn't have the vehicle jacked up on that loose gravel because that would be another point of danger. Whenever I need to get under ANY vehicle, I only jack up one side at a time, make sure the jackstands are in the proper location, and use 2 floor jacks at the same time in backup locations just in case one of the stands fail. People say it's overkill but I'd rather feel safe.
fieroguru AUG 01, 01:42 PM
Very tragic for a new member to pass like this. It just reinforces the need to practice safety in all aspects of our hobby, know what you are doing, and more importantly, how things can hurt you at every step.

I have used jack stands quite frequently for a few decades so here is my list of jack stand failure modes:
  • Not under car: Jack stands only work when they are pulled from storage and put into the proper location under the car.

  • Base pushes into ground: High risk when used on dirt, gravel, asphalt, plywood, or cinder blocks/bricks.

  • Base not wide/stable and allows the stand to tip over: Use widest base jack stands you can, avoid round or triangle bases.

  • Jack stand too short: You want the largest/tallest stand with the widest base for whatever task you are doing to maximize stability as well as safety if/when bad things happen. A 10" tall jack stand has a smaller base than an 14" tall one. Both could be used to raise a car to 16", the 14" stand is by far safer (more stability) especially when bad things happen. In the event the latch/pin fails, the car will likely fall less with the taller stand, which will reduce the impact load to the base, and in the event the jack stand it tipped over, but stays under the car, the additional width of base might make a significant difference in how low the car falls.

  • Top of stand slips off chassis: High risk when the chassis is not supported level or the jack stand is placed on a non-level section of the chassis. I prefer the tops of the stands to be "I___I" shaped so it captures the frame rail, cradle rail, etc. Jack stands should also be positioned to the chassis based on the work you are going to do - they resist slipping and tipping better in 1 direction, so if you are going to be pushing/pulling in 1 direction, optimally orient the jack stands to maximize resistance.

  • Top of stand pushes through chassis: High risk when top of jack stand is put under plastic or thin/excessively rusted sheet metal. If it flexes when the car is lowered onto it, it is not in the right spot.

  • Mechanical failure of stand/latch/pin: Use heavy duty stands from a trusted brand, inspect the stand and latch mechanism for any cracks, verify latches or pins are fully inserted. When latches are used, orient them away from the action. You don't want to be swinging a hammer or pushing a wrench towards the latch/lever on the jack stand. Accidentally hit the latch hard enough you can release it under load.

  • Excessive use of pulling, bumping force: Jack stands are meant to support heavy vertical loads, not excessive horizontal loads, some tasks should simply never be done while a car is only on jack stands.
R Runner AUG 01, 02:22 PM
This is terribly sad news. My thoughts and prayers go out to his family.
Thank you for posing all of this proper lifting content.
Dennis LaGrua AUG 01, 06:30 PM
Our prayers and condolences go out to the Allen family on the loss of Ethan in this tragic accident. what I do not understand is that if the center post collapses you still have the base stand supporting the vehicle. What I guess happened to Ethan is that the stands slipped out because they were not firmly anchored. We have a 2 post Rotary Lift in the garage and its pretty safe as it locks firmly in place, but we still use the 6' tall pinned stands for peace of mind. Better safe than sorry.

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skywurz AUG 01, 09:07 PM
This is sad news.

quote
Originally posted by Fiero Vice:




Jack Stands for when the engine was dropped.

Is it correct?

Most people would often say that it's best to use thick wood across for a better support.

And the front end should be on ramps and tied down with ratchet straps.

If you don't have one, invest in one. It will pay in dividends over & over.



I would not put stands in that location. You could not pay me to get under that car with the stands in that location.
Fiero Vice AUG 01, 09:49 PM

quote
Originally posted by skywurz:

I would not put stands in that location. You could not pay me to get under that car with the stands in that location.



I agree. It's not safe. It's known to have slide off before as recently as last year. I would rather build a stand to pull the car up and install a thick pipe across the car by the trunk. There's a circle hole there that was designed for that.

I appreciate your feedback. Thank you. I'm hoping to hear more from people who have had experiences with this.

[This message has been edited by Fiero Vice (edited 08-01-2021).]

theogre AUG 02, 02:05 AM
That's sucks but w/o data saying using jack stands is easy but may not help.
Because even most of the Best stands need good level concrete surface to work right. "Hard Dirt" and Asphalt can move under point loads cause by most stands and jacks resulting dropping a vehicle.

Again...
The above jack map is mainly a guide. It's not 100% accurate for all possible lifting you will do, especially the spots for floor jacks and jack stands.

Example: Rear Pink stands zones next to trunk floor are rarely used.
Many lift the rear in center of cradle but have shorter stands that won't fit there.
Instead many use the stands under the cradle, either the ones shown in the map or rear near 84-87 E-brake cables... Can be safe but has some "rules" and even then the "rules" may charge/mod'ed for a type of stand used. Or stands won't be safe.

And that's assumed the cradle etc doesn't have rust problems... Rust damaged areas might hold seconds, minutes, even hours then fail w/o warning. Jacking a car in states w/ high road salt use is often dicey.

Some stands are crap and never be safe in those and likely other locations.
Stand Recall tread shows some of the crap stands made and still around even when discontinued etc.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/099280.html

⚠️ Warning: Many newer "Ratchet top" stands now have extra "features" to prevent releasing under load.
Great on paper but Many of these parts barely work.
When you install them treat as old ones w/o the new locking parts and think where release lever is and try to set them so can't hit the lever.

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reinhart AUG 02, 04:09 AM

quote
Originally posted by skywurz:

This is sad news.

I would not put stands in that location. You could not pay me to get under that car with the stands in that location.



For this situation: Just holding the rear end up without the rear cradle installed, it's fine. The rear is actually pretty light without the cradle in there. I wouldn't be under the fuel tank area working but back where the empty engine compartment would be fine working back there with this support.
reinhart AUG 02, 04:12 AM

quote
Originally posted by IMSA GT:

One of the things that I noticed in his thread was a picture of his car parked in a gravel carport. I'm hoping he didn't have the vehicle jacked up on that loose gravel because that would be another point of danger. Whenever I need to get under ANY vehicle, I only jack up one side at a time, make sure the jackstands are in the proper location, and use 2 floor jacks at the same time in backup locations just in case one of the stands fail. People say it's overkill but I'd rather feel safe.



Sad situation.

It would be helpful to prevent this from occuring again to another Fiero owner if we knew the specific circumstances of why the failure occured. Did the ground shift? Was the jack stand faulty? Were the wheels on the ground unchocked and allowed the car to roll?