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| Question about using Turbo's on a motor (Page 3/4) |
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Valkrie9
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DEC 11, 10:25 AM
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hyperv6
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DEC 11, 12:10 PM
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Cheap is a clue that you should walk away. Maserati of this you are better off just burning the money in a money pit. At least it will keep you warm.
The Alfa Turbo cars had a burst panel on the hood as they were known for intakes blowing. They could hav3 fixed the engine but the blow panel was cheaper. They explained it on Grand Tour. Clark son had one of these cars and I guess he had one let go.
If you want more power, affordable power and trouble free power just drop in a LS v8 or a 3800 SC. Both are easy to find, buy parts for and have few issues.
I know it is cool to have something different but if it will be something that becomes more grief then best to keep away.
Yes we old guys think this way but remember some of us have made this mistake or we have seen others make this mistake. There are a number of Fiero’s out in garages unable to run due to poor project choices as they got in over their heads in experience or money.
If you want something special be the first to put in a new flat crank Z06 engine. They will be showing up in junk yards in the coming years. I expect a create engine too.
Most Italian cars are affordable to buy used but most people can’t afford the up keep.[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 12-11-2021).]
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Honest Don
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DEC 11, 12:46 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by hyperv6:
By studying what the OE engines are doing it will teach you much of what they learned the hard way. The Buick GN is a classic today but the Buick Turbo T types prior to the GN with a water cooled housing all failed. That is why you never see them today. Same for the Monte Carlo Turbo. Most died by 30,000 miles. |
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T-types and GNs were built at the same time; they were option packages. I think you're confusing that with the progression from carb to efi. Even today, getting good driveability out of a carb/turbo setup is a tall ask. I didn't know that the monte existed, but 40-year-old-low-production cars aren't a common sight in general.
| quote | Originally posted by hyperv6:
The key point Dennis is built. You are not just going to bolt on turbo chargers to end engine with cast pistons and no o rings and get good results.
It takes Rod,pistons, crank and o rings on the heads. Even intakes can be an issue if you produce any boost that makes a difference.
Then you need to get the fuel matched to the boost and that is where it takes a good tuner.
Finally it take a good measure of heat management . You will kill the electronics fast with out it and could do other damage.
I never said it could not be done but to bolt on a turbo from a junkyard and get good results is just not a simple thing to do.
Like I have said I have seen over the years a hood number of Fiero’s get Turbos and it takes a good bit of money to get it right. Even then without good knowledge many never see the road again.
Turbocharging is not for the novice. |
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LOL @ o-rings. Maybe for a four cylinder making 4-digit power?
Aftermarket engine management is a must. I'm using an MS2 which is relatively inexpensive, easy to tune, and has a large and helpful following. Getting a fuel pump and injectors goes without saying. More power is going to require more fuel. Stock L44 regulator is good for ??? (more than what I got)
Killing electronics? Ok, I did have to relocate my ICM to the trunk firewall along with a heat sink.
I suppose "good results" and "simple" are relative terms, but roughly doubling output without even pulling the heads or timing cover is good enough for me. Our local internet-sensation gave me the best advice with "You can have a lot of things not 'right' with a turbo and still make good power."
A failed/forgotten project on jackstands is not a turbo-exclusive situation. What's a good bit of money?
We all gotta start somewhere. I'd much rather burn up an engine that would be getting pulled anyway and learn something vs. hurting a "built right" engine because of inexperience or a missed detail.
| quote | Originally posted by hyperv6:
There is a guy out there with a TT LS V8 turbo in a Fiero. He really knew what he was doing and did a very good job. It was not cheap or easy but I believe he was making around 700 HP.
His entire trunk was an intercooler.
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Admittedly mine isn't 800hp or a swap, but it does have an intercooler and full(empty?) trunk. It was nice out last Thursday so I took it to buy groceries. The milk was still cold when I got home.
 [This message has been edited by Honest Don (edited 12-11-2021).]
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Valkrie9
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DEC 11, 11:02 PM
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A Twin-Turbo V6 Fiero, an interesting concept never attempted on Fiero.nl,
though imagined by starry eyed ambitious dreamers, desiring more power from their pathetically anemic '84's.
Out of the box, the Maserati Biturbo pumps 180hp, lighter than the Iron Duke or 2.8 iron V6, because it's aluminum.
The interface is simple, the '80s blowthrough design is basic, and with a decent intercooler, with more blow-off spring pressure, digital dial-a-boost, more and more.
An adapter plate for the transaxle will have to be measured and fabricated, as usual, whether auto or manual, exhaust downpipes to cats and mufflers the ho hum drudge, stainless and titanium mo' better, lol.
A few things should be done to insure long reliable life for the bottom end before applying fuel and spark.
Head bolts, gasket sealing, bearing clearances, oil pressure, rod bolts, piston sqirters, ping detectors, methanol-water injection, spark control,
oil scavenging and cooling, a thorough cleaning and inspection of the red headed six.
Twin turbocharging your 3.1 is possible, with time and money to develop strength and durability, new rods, pistons, valves, springs, cams, chains, oil pumps,
pans, exhaust piping, turbos, the systems custom and off the shelf, experimentally assembled to function while testing.
A fun way to meld junkyard parts into a fire breathing dragon, a Fiero sports performer, all done before by engineers with huge budgets.
Keeping it up for the years to get it all sussed out, to a turnkey install, without abandoning the quest or languishing under a pile of fiberglass doodads, gimcracks, flares and wings.
So, yeah, the twin turbo ' crate ' engine is an alternative for the Fiero transplant candidate, all systems go.
Now, it may be possible to get another 1500 rpm out of the smallblock Maserati, a good thing, screaming.
lol.
'
V6 Turbo
GaleBanks
Alfa-Romeo V6 'Busso' Engine
The V6 Violin: Alfa Romeo
Flame Out
MASERATI GT M139 4.2L '04-12 ~3K$
AMG V8 5.5 BiTurbo ~12.5K$
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TwinTurbo V6 ' Busso '
Throwing money at the problem is one solution, but buying a Maserati, Lancia, Fiat, AlfaRomeo, Lamborghini, or Ferrari engine for your Fiero would be a compassionate act of love, a gift into it's waiting mounts, exciting.
lol.
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Dennis LaGrua
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DEC 12, 11:24 AM
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The Maserati Bi-Turbo had an extremely bad reputation for reliability. That engine went into a vehicle that was designed to sell at an affordable price. It became known as the peoples Maserati due to the low price. The engine made 180 HP with 2.5L and twin turbos without an intercooler. Even if it were possible to do a Fiero engine swap with this engine I would stay away. Replacement parts would also be hard to find. ------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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hyperv6
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DEC 12, 12:37 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Honest Don:
Admittedly mine isn't 800hp or a swap, but it does have an intercooler and full(empty?) trunk. It was nice out last Thursday so I took it to buy groceries. The milk was still cold when I got home.
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Don the TTypes we’re available back to 1977. The early cars lacked the later water cooled housings and most died at 30k miles. It was big business taking these cars and replacing the Turbo with a 4 barrel intake. The EFI car were where the new engine package with the better turbo units were added along with better oils and an intercooler.
No matter the car Monte Lesabre etc these early engines were not very well done. It was 1984 before they started to get them right.
Even the Miller Woods unit was estimated to only live 80,000 miles at best by Miller Woods for the Fiero.
As for O rings it Varys from engine yo engine and what boost you run. A small block Ford V8 will lose a head gasket with moderate boost. But my 2.0 turbo had 5 head bolts per cylinder and reduction in size to have a thicker block. Now I ran 23 psi for ten years with no failures.
The real trouble is the 60 degree blocks and heads were not made for boost of any significance. The internals need upgraded.
You look like you have a nice set up but you don’t list what all you did and you don’t give boost or power levels. If conservative the engine may live.
But on the other hand many people really have no clue when they get into this stuff and most fail and often end up with a car that is a thing they stack stuff on.
I in no way am saying never Turbo. Hey I owned one myself along with a series of supercharged cars. I am just saying don’t get in over your head. Ask for help, educate yourself and even pay for help if needed to get it right. Also consider the other options as an engine swap to a modern engine often is the most gain per dollar spent and often more reliable.
I work in the performance industry and I see failure all the time. I also see success but often those are the people who either know what they are doing or take the time to plan this out. Just taking a turbo from a junk yard and bolting it on is not a sure formula for success.
Too often people watch this crap on Motor Trend TV and often don’t see the dark side or the amount of money the TV guys spend.
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hyperv6
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DEC 12, 12:42 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Valkrie9:
A Twin-Turbo V6 Fiero, an interesting concept never attempted on Fiero.nl,
though imagined by starry eyed ambitious dreamers, desiring more power from their pathetically anemic '84's.
Out of the box, the Maserati Biturbo pumps 180hp, lighter than the Iron Duke or 2.8 iron V6, because it's aluminum.
The interface is simple, the '80s blowthrough design is basic, and with a decent intercooler, with more blow-off spring pressure, digital dial-a-boost, more and more.
An adapter plate for the transaxle will have to be measured and fabricated, as usual, whether auto or manual, exhaust downpipes to cats and mufflers the ho hum drudge, stainless and titanium mo' better, lol.
A few things should be done to insure long reliable life for the bottom end before applying fuel and spark.
Head bolts, gasket sealing, bearing clearances, oil pressure, rod bolts, piston sqirters, ping detectors, methanol-water injection, spark control,
oil scavenging and cooling, a thorough cleaning and inspection of the red headed six.
Twin turbocharging your 3.1 is possible, with time and money to develop strength and durability, new rods, pistons, valves, springs, cams, chains, oil pumps,
pans, exhaust piping, turbos, the systems custom and off the shelf, experimentally assembled to function while testing.
A fun way to meld junkyard parts into a fire breathing dragon, a Fiero sports performer, all done before by engineers with huge budgets.
Keeping it up for the years to get it all sussed out, to a turnkey install, without abandoning the quest or languishing under a pile of fiberglass doodads, gimcracks, flares and wings.
So, yeah, the twin turbo ' crate ' engine is an alternative for the Fiero transplant candidate, all systems go.
Now, it may be possible to get another 1500 rpm out of the smallblock Maserati, a good thing, screaming.
lol.
'
V6 Turbo
GaleBanks
Alfa-Romeo V6 'Busso' Engine
The V6 Violin: Alfa Romeo
Flame Out
MASERATI GT M139 4.2L '04-12 ~3K$
AMG V8 5.5 BiTurbo ~12.5K$
'
TwinTurbo V6 ' Busso '
Throwing money at the problem is one solution, but buying a Maserati, Lancia, Fiat, AlfaRomeo, Lamborghini, or Ferrari engine for your Fiero would be a compassionate act of love, a gift into it's waiting mounts, exciting.
lol.
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I know of one TT attempted here and it ended poorly.
The best swaps are to find a combo someone has got to work. Ask them for help and copy. Or even builds in magazines can be a recipe for success.
There are just some folks able to sort these things out but there are many that just need help as there is a lot to this and mistakes cost money many can’t afford to waste.
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OldsFiero
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DEC 13, 06:20 PM
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I built mine in the 90's, and I'm still driving it every summer. The turbos are parallel. They are t3's from Saabs of the day (plentiful and cheap used then). Two were a close match for the displacement(3.5L V8). At the time, the most hacked tuning stuff was a 7730 ecm for TPI F bodies. I tuned for a 2 bar MAP and other params for my engine.
The pics are from a couple of years ago when I dropped the powertrain to clean up 20 years of grime and replace the old insulation with Dynamat.
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Valkrie9
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DEC 13, 08:43 PM
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Buick 215 into Fiero - Twin Turbos
Yes !
A twin Turbo V8 into a Fiero, a reasonably tractable engine for touring, 4 speed automatic.
Interesting. Would like to see the install photos again, seems they have become 404.
The adapter plate, front housing mods, oil pan, exhaust piping, the whole solution you've created, brilliant.
' Merlin F85 ' heads for the Rover V8 from Real Steel
Turbo Rover V8 4.9 dyno
Rover 3.5L - 215" Olds, Buick, Pontiac. Dyno
Rover 3.5L V8 + CBR600rr4 ITBs !
Edit Dec 14,'23:
Look ! There's more ! Rovers on the dyno !
Rover 215 Aluminum Raised Port Cylinder Heads ![This message has been edited by Valkrie9 (edited 12-15-2023).]
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OldsFiero
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DEC 14, 08:16 AM
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Thanks. And thanks for sharing the links at the bottom of your post.
Marc
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Sure, it will fit.
Used BiTurbo.