84-87 vs 88 handling/ride (Page 1/2)
cman5302 MAR 28, 04:18 PM
People who have driven (and possibly autocross'd or tracked) both an 84-87 AND an 88 fiero, what are your experiences with handling and ride differences between the two?

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2008 Impala SS (Rest in Peace)

olejoedad MAR 28, 04:46 PM
I've have an 85 GT, an 86 SE and an 88 Formula.

The stock GT pushed terribly and rode hard.
The 86 SE with stock suspension (not WS6) handled better than the 85 GT.
I rebuild the entire suspension (complete Fiero Store handling package and added a GT rack) and drove it for several more years. Very stiff ride, but the handling was like driving Velcro on flypaper. Autocrosses it and finished mid pack with race prepped Vette's.

The 88 Formula has the best ride of the three examples above, and handles like Velcro on flypaper.
It is also much easier to drive close to the limit and has a more solid feel in a straight line.

From my experiences, the 88 is the winner.
cvxjet MAR 28, 05:46 PM
The 88 front suspension is an incremental improvement form the early suspension- I just dropped tire width from stock 215 to 205 and increased the wheel offset to 38 mm and realigned the front and it drove substantially better.

The early rear suspension is not very good- and there was a glaringly stupid mistake in the geometry which leads to bumpsteer; On a Strut-type suspension, the length of the tie-rod is determined by a triangle, the top being the top of the strut, the bottom two points being the ball joint and the inner pivot of the A-arm....Since the A-arm is approx 12.5" in length and the tie rod is above it, this means the tie rod should have been SHORTER than 12 inches....Instead they made it 15"....So when the suspension moves up and down, the tie rod stays relatively stable in length, but the a-arm swings thru an arc which causes toe variance.

The 88 rear suspension is extremely well designed- it not only eliminates the tie rod variance, but absorbs bumps better while controlling toe changes via very thin bushings.

The 88 front suspension has one weakness- the wheel bearings are impossible to get anymore- the aftermarket ones are only good for showcar that is not driven except off and on a trailer (The one possible exception being Rodney Dickman's re-packable bearings)

The early front bearings are very durable, repackable and have quality replacements readily available.

A lot of people get an 84-87, and then swap in the 88 rear suspension/subframe... the early cars have more room between the strut towers (For engine swaps) and the only thing required for this suspension swap is conversion to coil-over strut/springs and strut top brackets to relocate where the struts mount in the towers.

There was a guy on here long ago who stated that the best handling setup was an early front suspension with the 88 rear- I admit I only drove a coworker's 88 around the block once so am not able to properly judge handling prowess of the full-on 88s- but my 85 SE V6 with 88 rear suspension handles exceptionally well (And my main interest in cars is handling).

I did this conversion and the improvement was...terrific.

Here is my first car (1972 Comet GT) coming thru a turn in Livermore back in 1982 at 25 mph...and two months ago my Fiero coming thru the same turn at 35 mph;

[This message has been edited by cvxjet (edited 03-28-2023).]

Patrick MAR 28, 05:58 PM

Regarding the feel of stock suspension, my '88 Formula rode like a Cadillac compared to my '84 and '86 GT. However, with autocross and tweaked suspensions in mind, I actually preferred the handling of my '84 to my Formula (with similar modifications to both). I suspect it had something to do with less weight of the duke in the '84, but to be honest, there were no doubt a lot of variables introduced with the suspension mods.
hyperv6 MAR 28, 09:36 PM
The 88 is a better ride. The handling is less push in stock form with better turn in.

The 84-87 Stock WS6 ride ok but had understeer and bump steer. Steering was heavier.

Sway bars fix the under steer, remove the damper lightens it and with solid bushings in the rear the bump steer goes away.

Now keep in mind the ill side of the 84-87 is only shown when pushed to limits. In normal driving it is not bad.
David Hambleton MAR 28, 09:52 PM
I've driven my '84 SE 2.5L 4 speed with the WS6 sport suspension 396,600 km (246,400 miles) since I got it new.
I've driven my '86 coupe 2.5L 5 speed without the WS6 suspension (from 119,000 km to 149,000 km) 30,000 km (18,600 miles) since I got it in 2008.
I've driven my Formula 5 speed 40,700 km (25,300 miles) since I got it in 2011 with 5,200 km (3,230 miles) on it.
All suspension components are factory original excluding the front shocks on the '84 and '88 (oil seals leaked on both).

The '86 coupe handling is noticeably less sporty than the other two, but for normal driving is ok. It still corners well.

I'm more comfortable approaching corners faster in the '84 than the '88 but it might be because the '84 front tires are wider... (I have stock size tires on both).
The '88 seems to understeer more than the '84. Of course, the additional V6 power in the '88 can be used to affect handling behaviour as well.

Some people are adamant about the superiority of the '88 suspension but may not be comparing it to the WS6 in earlier models.
A legitimate qualitative comparison would have to include similar quality and life span suspension components and the same size, brand, model and life tires.
There's no doubt that aftermarket alterations can produce superior results.
theogre MAR 29, 11:19 PM
Note/Caution...

When comparing old vs 88 and all OEM AKA "A factory stock" Fiero...
Factory stock 84-87 had some issues/problems and "Car & Driver" and other Trade Rags reported those issues Very Poorly at best and worse most fools still push same BS.

"WS6" does not do much to most cars with this RPO. All Fiero have "Better" spring but same crape Shocks Struts etc. Including Cradle Bushing in 84-87. IOW "WS6" is GM Marketing "Scam" slapped on a lot of Models to get more money from idiot buyers that believe C&D et al.

Trade Rags and fools that barf up same "Information" often hate the car for whatever reason or trying to sell High $ "fixes" for things like "Fiero has Bump Steer, Torque Steer or Both Problems."

Just replacing crap factory Shocks & Struts with Gabriel or Monroe Gas Units will improve the suspension and very noticeable too. But "in the day" if they get new S&S, many get Non Gas units that barely help Fiero and most cars on the road for 80's and 90's. Go look at what sold for 30+ years. 70's to 90's and more Most S&S sold thru Sears and Many More was to push out the cheap parts often then thru most Sales Advertising in Print or on TV & Radio. So Often still have the "Bump Steer Problems" going over RR Tracks etc and Not Just Fiero and Not Just GM.

See Cave, Bump Steer Bum Rush https://web.archive.org/web...ierocave/bumpbum.htm

Replacing Cradle Bushing with Polly or Metal stops Torque Steer because prevent the engine twisting the cradle. Even 4cyl w/ Stick Trany can twist the cradle making rear wheel turn at you hit the gas or braking.

Comparing both old and 88 now...
You Can't. Because Most have replace S&S Tires etc with everyone have different setup. Just in S&S you still see Cheap non gas, Best Monroe Gas, Best Gabriel Gas, Koni and often "Performance" units and more.
I just bought new Tires that changed the ride feel. previous charge OE size 195-70-14 to 205-60-15 change road/ride feel and handling too. Main reason is 14" tires has less tire choices now. Even worse tire availability for 84 Fiero and many others OE size w/ 185 and others 80-13 tires from the factory. Even harder to find good 15" tires now. Many places don't have any of this sizes in stock.

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Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave

jelly2m8 MAR 30, 12:05 AM
Here we go again..........................if the pre-88 suspension was better........... GM would not have put the time and effort into the 88 suspension, the reviews of 88 would not have been raving....... people would not be trying to put 88 suspension into there earlier cars.
Enjoy your car for what it is, it's fine, it's an 80's Gm crapbox, even my 88's are just that. Enjoy it for what it is
fieroguru MAR 30, 08:57 AM
From an engineering perspective, lots of things with the 84-87 suspension are head scratchers and the 88 design is very logical (not perfect by any means, but well thought out and executed).

Go-karts with zero suspension can easily pull over 1g and out handle any fiero on a smooth track. Take them out on a city street and it will bounce around and traction will be constantly lost over road irregularities, and handling will become very inconsistent.

The goal of the suspension is to balance handling, traction, and ride quality. Performance enthusiasts try to maximize the handling and traction with an "acceptable" impact to ride quality. For everyone, this balance point is different and even changes over time for the same person.

Both the 84-87 and 88 suspensions can be built to handle great on smooth roads.
Build them to reach the "exact same level of handling and traction" using the same wheels/tires under that environment, then take them on a city street. The 88 will have better ride quality and performance over the road irregularities... because that is what it was specifically designed to do. The 84-87 was designed (and I used this term very loosely) to fit existing suspension bits parts into the Fiero platform - this is what caused the engineering head scratchers I referenced above.

Take this one step further, if you build an 84-87 and an 88 to have the exact same level of ride quality using the same wheels and tires, then the 88 will very likely out handle the 84-87 on the track.
Raydar MAR 30, 05:49 PM

quote
Originally posted by theogre:
...

When comparing old vs 88 and all OEM AKA "A factory stock" Fiero...
Factory stock 84-87 had some issues/problems and "Car & Driver" and other Trade Rags reported those issues Very Poorly at best and worse most fools still push same BS.
...
"WS6" is GM Marketing "Scam" slapped on a lot of Models to get more money from idiot buyers...




Condescending much?