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88 hardtops have factory T Top cutouts in roof frame? True? (Page 1/4) |
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Green Magic Man
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AUG 15, 06:03 PM
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Hi all. Brand new here but been reading a lot content here the past 6 months. I’ve recently and surprisingly to myself gone down the Fiero rabbit hole and I hope I’m here to stay awhile
I recently bought a re-bodied ‘88 Formula. No T Top or sunroof installed. I read here I believe, that for 1988 Pontiac made all the non sunroof cars framed up and ready for T Top installation. And that the “proof” of that is to look under the roof and see the indented contours of the roof panel. My 1988 has that feature - clear indents up in the roof headliner that outline T Top center supports.
So… is this true then? Was that a single final year manufacturing change ? I’m very much contemplating putting in T Tops as I would LOVE that open air feel experience. Thanks all! Excellent forum that I hope to be very active in.
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82-T/A [At Work]
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AUG 15, 06:25 PM
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quote | Originally posted by Green Magic Man:
Hi all. Brand new here but been reading a lot content here the past 6 months. I’ve recently and surprisingly to myself gone down the Fiero rabbit hole and I hope I’m here to stay awhile
I recently bought a re-bodied ‘88 Formula. No T Top or sunroof installed. I read here I believe, that for 1988 Pontiac made all the non sunroof cars framed up and ready for T Top installation. And that the “proof” of that is to look under the roof and see the indented contours of the roof panel. My 1988 has that feature - clear indents up in the roof headliner that outline T Top center supports.
So… is this true then? Was that a single final year manufacturing change ? I’m very much contemplating putting in T Tops as I would LOVE that open air feel experience. Thanks all! Excellent forum that I hope to be very active in. |
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So, yes and no.
First... welcome to the forum! And you 88 Formula is probably awesome. Is it a 5-Speed? Even better!
The Fiero frame was designed from the factory to incorporate cutouts for a sunroof, not TTOPs. All TTOPs were a custom job by a company called C&C. C&C stands for "Cars & Concepts" and they actually also did TTOPs for the Pontiac Grand Prix and Chevy Monte Carlo in the late 70s, and also for the Pontiac TransAm and Chevy Camaro during the height of the Smokey & the Bandit Craze when they were flying off the shelves. You had Fischer and Hurst (?) TTOPs, and then you had the C&C TTOPs which are very distinct in that they are totally squared off. Here is an example of a pretty rare 81 TransAm with C&C TTOPs:
Basically, the TTOP Fieros didn't come from the factory with TTOPs, they were shipped out from the factory to a nearby facility where the TTOPs were installed, transported back, and then shipped out with the other cars to the dealership that ordered it.
The contours in the headliner you're seeing are basically bump-outs for your head to give you a little bit more headroom. A lot of the sports cars did that back then as it gave room for really tall people, or if you had a racing helmet, etc...
But if you were to tear-out your headliner, you'd see this cutout:
If I'm not mistaken, there's a panel that goes in there to reinforce the hole, and it meshes with the roof and sunroof opening. The roof is hard to remove, only because the "A" pillars are glued down and break. Some people use piano wire to cut it free from the space frame. But you could effectively replace the roof panel and install a sunroof pretty easily. Either way, you could also still install T-TOPs if you found a set, plus the roof structure that you'd need. TTOP Fieros also come with a brace that attaches underneath the car since the space frame ends up being compromised.
If you'd like a sunroof, there's tons of Fiero parts cars with one that you could pull the roof and hardware off of... it'll directly install in your car without modification.
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Green Magic Man
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AUG 15, 07:11 PM
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Thanks for your response So I am guessing or concluding then that all Fieros that had no sunroof have these indentations in the interior of the roof ? I guess I’m surprised that there is almost a center bar looking thick spot - but as you say maybe they only did that for extra height in the areas that heads might be only. So… no Fieros have smooth roof headliners of uniform thickness then? I have read a lot about the C & C aftermarket conversions. I’ve read about a guy who chopped out his hard roof and riveted in donor T frame (more like a sideways H) and then added in donor t tops and seals. And I’ve read hard (expensive) to find and especially good seals.
I’ve also read how it really compromises body stiffness. So not sure I want to chop thru it all and go that route. Maybe but not anytime soon if so.
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Patrick
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AUG 15, 07:18 PM
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quote | Originally posted by Green Magic Man:
I’m very much contemplating putting in T Tops as I would LOVE that open air feel experience.
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You'd probably also have to learn to love water dripping onto your head... or if not onto your head, at least into the car. Seriously, T-Tops in a Fiero (and/or probably any car) are notorious for leaking. I had an opportunity to buy an Enterra Vipre, a car that I had lusted after for years, but decided against it as this particular one had T-Tops. I have no regrets over that decision.
What type of Fiero rebody do you have? Any photos you can upload? (The Upload Media tab is at the lower left of the posting box.)[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 08-15-2024).]
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82-T/A [At Work]
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AUG 15, 07:33 PM
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quote | Originally posted by Green Magic Man:
Thanks for your response So I am guessing or concluding then that all Fieros that had no sunroof have these indentations in the interior of the roof ? I guess I’m surprised that there is almost a center bar looking thick spot - but as you say maybe they only did that for extra height in the areas that heads might be only. So… no Fieros have smooth roof headliners of uniform thickness then? I have read a lot about the C & C aftermarket conversions. I’ve read about a guy who chopped out his hard roof and riveted in donor T frame (more like a sideways H) and then added in donor t tops and seals. And I’ve read hard (expensive) to find and especially good seals.
I’ve also read how it really compromises body stiffness. So not sure I want to chop thru it all and go that route. Maybe but not anytime soon if so. |
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Correct, all Fieros that were NOT originally equipped with a sunroof, have the two indentations in the ceiling... with what looks like a bar in the middle. It's merely an effect made by the headliner board, as if you remove it, there's no actual beam there. The only Fiero I've ever owned that didn't have a sunroof was an 85 Fiero GT, and that too had those head bumps in the headliner.
Another thing about the C&C TTOPs is that each car came with a certification, and a warning. it basically said that the frame had been compromised and no longer met the safety standards as laid out by the National Traffic Safety and Highway Administration. Most people tossed these of course... but it was something they legally had to do.
I think the TTOPs are cool, but I personaly wouldn't want to swap one in. If I really wanted TTOPs, I'd probably re-design the frame, personally. The rigidity of the space frame is what makes the Fiero so awesome in my opinion... not something you really want to compromise.
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fierosound
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AUG 16, 10:06 AM
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hyperv6
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AUG 16, 09:46 PM
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As a TTop owner here is the deal.
The roof panel is cut and a H shaped panel is riveted in place with a ton of large rivets.
They actually cut out the entire sun roof panel.
There is no under body brace. That was never part of the TTop design. Some Targa and convertibles did include a brace as the t bar keeps the car strong enough.
The TTop does have more cowl shake but that was even common on the trans am.
The head liners were designed for head room.
When cutting the top they would install braces on the doors and once the top is installed the remove the braces. It is not hats if you have the tools or know how yo jig up the cat do it remains straight.
As for crash disclaimer I never had one and never even heard of one. Not saying they did not exist but this is the first I heard of that in the 39 years of ownership. T top cars died due to higher crash standards.
Not the tops were first sold as dealer installed options from 1984 to 87. 88 the cars were done in Brighton MI at C&C for Pontiac but local C&C indtalkers still did installs till the early 90’s.
As for leaks as longs as the seals were done correctly and maintained they don’t leak. The key is yo adjust where the top deal meets the door seal. They can be adjusted. Mine are still dry.
There was nearly 8,000 kits made in total including the 88 cars. Sone kits were used for warranty work. So closer to 7k cars were converted. Some were kit cars too.
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Patrick
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AUG 16, 10:22 PM
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quote | Originally posted by hyperv6:
As for leaks as longs as the seals were done correctly and maintained they don’t leak. The key is yo adjust where the top deal meets the door seal. They can be adjusted. Mine are still dry.
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I suspect that non-leaking T-Tops are a rarity. Here's a photo of the Enterra Vipre that I had mentioned earlier. There's a reason why it was parked under a canopy at this Fiero get-together. The long-time owner of it was a very experienced Fiero guy, and if he could've got that T-Top to stop leaking, I'm sure he would've done so at some point.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 08-16-2024).]
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jelly2m8
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AUG 17, 04:12 AM
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quote | Originally posted by Patrick:
I suspect that The long-time owner of it was a very experienced Fiero guy, and if he could've got that T-Top to stop leaking, I'm sure he would've done so at some point.
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You are Soooo correct, I do not proclaim to be the Fiero expert the locals see me as but I have experience for sure.
I did have a Florida 88 T-Top Fiero. I Loved that car, nothing better than having them tops out on a nice evening, it was a pussy magnet guaranteed. But it was an old car ( some 14 years old then ) I did buy every new old stock T-Top part I could get my hands on and it wasn't enough. Mine wasn't ' ragged' but it wasn't as perfect as T-Top seals need to be.
I adjusted, I fiddled to get those tops to be water tight. I thought i had it pretty good, could hose them down with a water hose, a pressure washer all around those top and no water inside. Great. But leave that car outside for a week in damp / foggy weather and then sit in the car and get a wet ass, took a number of years and I got fed up, could not live with that thing. It was a really tough choice to choose on selling the rust free 88 T-Top car and the 88 rust free Sunroof car, Deep down it wasn't a hard choice.
Some is gonna hate me, fair enough, anyone that has a leak free Fiero T-Top, it's a garage queen that mine could have been. but when it lives in a predomintily damp enviroment....[This message has been edited by jelly2m8 (edited 08-17-2024).]
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hyperv6
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AUG 17, 07:16 AM
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Not sure what the drama is about. I am sue some may leak but I do know not all do.
Mine is good and several others I know that have them are leak free. I’m going out today with a possibility of rain today.
I suspect that how well they seal may be due to who installed the kit. These were not all assembly line cars. Mine was done by a C&C installer. One guy did the job over two day.
When I got it back I had a leach but he had a seal wrong and once fixed it was good. I drove the car year round for several years and no issues.
There is no hate. It is what it is. While some might leak most that I have encountered don’t.
The seal design is one that if installed there is no way to have water come in on the top side.
The main area of attention is where the top and car seals meet. Get them tight and the window adjusted right they work.
Many cars todsy have dried out and damaged seals. It may be amazing those do not leak more than they do.
I believe you may have issues but trust me not all do.
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