Drove a BRZ today, first impression: a mixed bag (Page 1/2)
Fformula88 JUN 06, 09:05 PM
I had the day off today with little to do (other than chores). Since housework was something I was not in the mood for I went down to the dealer and took out a Subaru BRZ to see what all the hype and criticism is about.

Interesting car to drive. Ergonomically it is much better than the 2007 WRX I owned. That car felt all out of proportion inside for my 6 foot frame. Not terribly so, but it was clearly not made with the thought of having someone as tall as I was in the car (or at least with as long of legs, as a lot of my height is in the legs). BRZ was very comfortable with controls falling at hand very easily and without much adjustment. For me, that is rare. I was impressed.

It wasn't the most expensive interior overall either, but again far exceeded my old WRX. Everything you regularly touch was soft, or leather covered (it was a limited model). Nice. Seats had good bolstering, on the aggressive side, but not so much it did not pinch in normal driving. This also impressed me as it is rare for me to not feel pinched by today's crop of sporty cars and their racing inspired bolsters.

Clutch and shifter were smooth. Took me a while to really adjust to the clutch pickup in the pedal, but I do not blame the car. Going from my Fiero to a modern clutch always has me feeling like the modern clutch is just a hot knife going through butter. I have to train my left foot to not slam it down, and that I need less resistance letting it up. I never fully got used to it, but I did not have too long of a drive with too many shifts. Still, it had a positive engagement and I think would be fine in short order.

The engine is as advertised. Not very powerful low in the RPM range. No torque. The first few gears are aggressive and move you up the tach quickly to build power. When on it, the car moves well, but in normal driving there is not much there to push you back in the seat. Less than a torquey Fiero V6 (of course, that Fiero V6 has more torque to begin with). The car is still fun with it, when on boil, or, particularly when enjoying it's steering and handling.

As for the steering... love love love! It's not as communicative as the non assist units my 88 Formulas had, but it is direct, does seem to let a lot through for a modern car, and is eager to turn. Yet, does not feel over boosted, or too eager (as I feel the Hyundai Genesis Coupe is). The car just is eager to rotate. Loves turns. Corners flat. This car would be a blast on a curvey two laner!

My only other real negative is that it feels a little overly stiffly sprung over bumps. Yes, I know this is for the handling, but I have driven other cars which handle extremely well, but do not beat you up as much. That said, could be the weight, as it is light (27XX lbs). (Oh and that weight, lots of stone noise from the tires, so not much sound insulation in the wheel wells).

Over all, I am not sure about it's value. If anything, it is screaming for a turbo and a little more power. Not tons, but it needs that push you in your seat feeling a bit more. The biggest problem with it's value is the WRX sitting on the lot next to it. Now, I have not driven a 2015, but if it's steering and dynamics are improved as advertised, it is going to be a lot of fun in the turns too, and have the power to really push things.
BabyEating Dingo JUN 06, 11:16 PM
Part of the reason I went with a Genesis Coupe and not the Toyobaru FBRZS is the what you mentioned - the Genesis feels more 'eager'. The extreme low end torque the Genesis Coupe builds up feels a lot more responsive. Of course, a lot of it probably has to do with the tires... the BRZ comes stock on 215's after all, there's no way those little rubber bands can use even the 200 ponies the engine puts out.

IMO the BRZ is far and away the better of the Toyobaru cars. Try out an FRS some time... the interior and gauge cluster feel like a throwback to 2005. It's fun to drive and all, but I'd hate to be stuck with an FRS as a daily driver. Feels practically paleolithic.

The tiny wheels and underpowered engine make FBRZS practically beg to be modded. I have no doubt in 25 years these will become the new Honda CRX - covered in bondo and ruined paint, with the few well kept ones in nice condition fetching disproportionately high collector prices.

[This message has been edited by BabyEating Dingo (edited 06-06-2014).]

RWDPLZ JUN 06, 11:27 PM
I liked the BRZ better, but I ended up buying the WRX STI because it's faster, it's more practical, better brakes, it can get through a Michigan winter, and I already own a fun-to-drive 2-seater (the Fiero). Overall, the BRZ was the better driver's car by a wide margin, pretty much exactly as you describe, but it needs 50+ more HP. If you're thinking of buying one, wait until next year. People have been screaming for more power, and it has to be coming soon.

If you want to be disappointed, go try the 370Z next. What a steaming pile that was.
Fformula88 JUN 07, 09:08 AM
I drove a Genesis Coupe a few years ago, the V6 model. Terrific power and responsiveness from the engine, but I felt Hyundai was in some ways making up for their lack of great dynamic engineering ability by using very aggressive gearing, steering ratios, etc. That said, this may no longer be the case as the car was very new then and now has a number of years of refinement under it's belt. I know a lot of people do seem to like them.


quote
Originally posted by RWDPLZ:

I liked the BRZ better, but I ended up buying the WRX STI because it's faster, it's more practical, better brakes, it can get through a Michigan winter, and I already own a fun-to-drive 2-seater (the Fiero). Overall, the BRZ was the better driver's car by a wide margin, pretty much exactly as you describe, but it needs 50+ more HP. If you're thinking of buying one, wait until next year. People have been screaming for more power, and it has to be coming soon.

If you want to be disappointed, go try the 370Z next. What a steaming pile that was.



I window shopped a 370Z, but did not feel any urge to even drive it. Not sure why, if it is reputation or it's appearance, but it just has no appeal to me. Maybe I will drive it to see just how bad!
Raydar JUN 07, 03:47 PM
I drove a Genesis coupe a few years ago. (Was cross-shopping those when I found my Challenger.)
With the DOHC 3.8, it would be easy to get in lots of trouble. And the one I drove was before they upgraded to DI.

I have never driven a BRZ but I came very close to buying one.
All of the enthusiast mags say that the BRZ has a more refined suspension. The FR-S is a little more harsh, and is designed for the "drift" crowd.
The only thing I like better about the FR-S is the front bumper cover.

The magazines also like to compare the BRZ and FR-S to the Miata. Favorably, at that.
Fiero84Freak JUN 08, 07:44 PM
I've now driven them both - the BRZ and the FR-S. Both were six speed manuals. I haven't driven the automatic six yet in either car, but would like to just to play around with the paddles.

I'm actually probably going to buy one soon; at least it's currently on the tops of cars for me. I've been saying that for a while but my daily is now paid off and time to grab another fun car. The used market turned out to be really good for these which is what I expected, and if I don't pick up a new one I'll just go throw down cash on a slightly used one (looking at the sub 10,000 mile territory, which is coming at just around $21K-$22K, and I figure with cash in hand I can go a little further down since everyone loves green backs).

I think a lot of people that REALLY are harsh on the power and the relative cost of the two haven't actually driven either of the cars. It's a lot like people that constantly bash Miatas, but when you ask if they have ever driven one they of course respond with a "no" and immediately retort with a fantasy-driven narrative about how a Mustang or Camaro V6 would be a "better car," but they themselves would "go for the V8" for the "'Murica" factor. Or how $25K is "too much" for an FR-S, but everybody and their mom is willing to shell out $23K-$24K for that sub-par current generation Scion TC which is inferior to it's prior generation. Hell I really wonder what the hell people actually drive and what they have driven when they make comments on forums sometimes...

The TL;DR version is car does what it advertises itself as supposed to be doing pretty well which is kind of the point; it's a two door, 2+2 coupe, relatively cheap, that is not only easy to drive but also actually fun to drive.

I think the interior for what it is honestly isn't half bad. For the segment for sure it's good. I was more pleased at the options that could be ordered with the BRZ. The interior feels a lot more upscale and the ability to order items like heated seats is a plus. The FR-S does feel cheap, but the faux-carbon trim is pleasing to look at. I didn't much care for the red trim sticking out of the side bolsters on the FR-S. If you have the Ultramarine color that's kind of a faux-pas to me. The Subaru isn't as "loud" in terms of it's interior looks. I'm 5' 7", and sat in the cockpit superbly - it brought back memories of the first time I sat in the driver's seat of a Fiero 20 years ago. The Subaru had the full touch screen and the FR-S the plain CD stereo. When it came out the FR-S touch screen was an option with the BeSpoke audio, but now it is stock. Also the '14/'15 FR-S gets the JDM foot well pads, which lacked on the '13 model I drove.

I actually like the sight lines. When I sit in a current gen Camaro or Mustang it's relatively difficult for me to see out of. The large A pillars most common cars have is relatively absent on the FR-S/BRZ, which eliminates some of that forward blind spot a lot of modern cars have. The rear is just a little difficult for me to see out of but it's probably more due to my driving position.

Clutch too I have to agree with. It's super smooth, and for sure it may be one of the best shifting manual transmission in this segment that has been produced in recent memory. However, it's initial engagement is really high on the movement. Another thing is you really have to rev before you shift, even in normal driving. I'm used to in non-spirited driving in most common manual transmission cars shifting at 2,500-4,000 RPM points, but with this car you really have to get into the revs. Like if you don't get past the major torque dip before you shift the car just seems to kind of fall onto itself embarrassingly. You have to really get up into the near 5,000 range in every shift.

On driving the FR-S I was able to disable the VCS. I noticed that there was some more ability to throw the car around. With both VCS and Trac completely off you're supposed to be able to REALLY throw it around but I have yet to get to try having that kind of fun. Regardless, for this segment the car handles incredible any way you drive it. It corners relatively flat, with some expected body roll but not enough to impede sporty driving. It's also very easy to control the car with the throttle, and putting in steering input really allows you to place the car exactly where you want it. It's fun for sure, and it's drivability is at a low enough skill level that you can have fun in it without much effort.

The BRZ for me rode better. The FR-S stock uses the same Michelin tires as the Prius. I've read reports of the FR-S being the more "tail happy" car and the BRZ the more "civilized" car, but I'll be 100% honest; for me that was a lot of marketing hype. For sure there is a difference in ride quality due to the tires on the FR-S, but the cornering ability of them are pretty much on par to one another. And if anything the BRZ may be the better cornering car out of the box.

I think a good modification if I got either would indeed upgrade the wheels and tires near immediately. An inch upsize with a staggered setup and more competent tire would probably be a tremendous upgrade. Some of the mags have throw competition-spec tires onto these, and have seen tremendous gains in speed and lap times. And that is expected, but the gains they're seeing are higher than them doing the same thing with other two-door, RWD cars. Another upgrade that would probably be effective is upgraded roll bars, and likely a better brake compound on the brakes. I would avoid the more common modifications, like a CAI or strut bars or anything like that. The exhaust market really hasn't reached an area where the amount of $$ thrown in is comparative to gains. The $800-$1,200 market for exhaust sees increases in the 5 HP range, which is acceptable for sure, but I feel that money spent could go towards other aforementioned items ($1,200 can go towards a real nice set of wheels).

Power for sure could use a bump. However with the warranty that comes with both these cars it's hard to justify that early on. I can see why people would like a factory upgrade in power from the get-go, and it's absence is likely why both buyers and potential buyers are weary. They really don't want to void that warranty. And while that can sound silly for some, keep in mind many of both Subaru and Scion dealers are offering not only 60,000-100,000 mile warranties but full two years of free maintenance. For some that buy these as their only car that's a difficult notion to get away from. It would be nice if at least the option for more power were available, and the reluctancy to do this just baffles me.

It does sadden me a bit that these cars aren't selling as well as they probably should be. I think Toyota/Subaru went into this market with a bit too much optimism. For sure in Asian markets it's kind of in it's own league, but most people in North America are likely going to go for the aforementioned Mustang or Camaro for a four-seat, two door car. And both of those do have gobbles of more HP out of the box even in their V6 forms. With the Mustang likely going to be going to the Asian markets soon in four cylinder turbo form that's really going to throw a bit of a wrench into things as I think the four cylinder turbo Mustang will do well in Asian markets.

I will say there is a really acceptance factor into this car. You have to accept (relatively) low HP numbers, and for sure torque numbers that as mentioned are just a hair above a L44 V6 in the Fiero. You accept a bit of economical build quality. However if you do get past those things you'll realize that the car is kind of a field of it's own; a import build, that is RWD, two-door, and has four seats, that is relatively cheap. The only other car that falls into that segment is the Hyundai Genesis coupe in four cylinder trim. Every other import that is RWD is either at a higher price point, or is more expensive (Miata, 370Z, Genesis Coupe w/ V6). I've driven all of those too; the Miata, the Z, the Genesis coupe. I from a personal stand-point prefer the Miata, but the 2+2 concept of the FR-S/BRZ at such a cheap price just sways me back every time. Maybe the Genesis, and I'm the first to say nothing wrong with a Hyundai. Just the overall package of the FR-S/BRZ keeps pulling me in...
RWDPLZ JUN 08, 09:09 PM

quote
Originally posted by Fiero84Freak:

I've now driven them both - the BRZ and the FR-S. Both were six speed manuals. I haven't driven the automatic six yet in either car, but would like to just to play around with the paddles.



I drove the auto too, the paddle shift works better than the system in the Cadillac CTS, but still not great. Also feels like it has about 30HP less than the manual car, and slower in general.

My STi also has the same optional navigation system that comes in the BRZ. It's crap. Get the base stereo and upgrade. The navigation system feels 10 years old, and the HD radio cannot keep a signal. The speakers in the STi and the BRZ both sounded the same: good bass and decent highs, and absolutely no mid range. The XM and iPod hookups work fine, so does the hands free calling.

With buying the FRS, I would be wary of Toyota dealers properly servicing the car. It's manufactured by Fuji Heavy Industries, and has a boxer engine. It's a Subaru with a Toyota direct injection system.
Fformula88 JUN 08, 09:42 PM
Fiero84Freak... I basically find myself agree with everything.

I drove it to start looking for a sporty car for more regular use. My DD is a Dodge Charger, which is fun, and IMO a terrific and underrated sedan. However, it's not currently or will ever be a sports car.

The engine hurts BRZ/FRS sales, even if the car overall is a good sports car for this price point. Those forums you reference show why. Look how many people laugh at 300+ HP in the V6 pony cars these days. They certainly are not going to show a 200 HP car any respect. Even if it is light, and moves fairly well. It's not a stop light drag car, and it seems to me most people these days want that. Maybe Vin Diesel living life a quarter mile at a time is the problem.

I suspect the somewhat low sales are in part due to the FR-S being cheaper. Scion's marketing is targeted squarely at young buyers who are not all that likely be looking at buying a true sports car at any price. It also turns away more mature buyers, who may be turned off by the marketing.

On the flip side, the Subarus are pricier which can also be a turnoff. They have a great car but created a difficult marketing situation. Instead of trying to prop up Scion, Toyota should have badged this a Toyota 86 in the US, where they could play more directly off their Celica, MR2 and Supra heritage.

I would definitely be nervous of the Scion as well from a repair and service point of view. I used to be into Ford Probe's, but whenever I had an issue I wanted a dealer to look at, I had all kinds of trouble. No matter the dealer, they would all blame it on being a "Mazda"drivetrain. I just do not think Ford dealers bothered keeping techs current with the Mazda based electronics, troubleshooting, or repair methods due to the relatively low volume. I would have much more confidence in Subaru dealers servicing this powerplant.
Fiero84Freak JUN 09, 09:33 PM
I'll say something which may sound superficial; color will likely be the deciding choice for me. If I go with the BRZ I'm going to have to go with the WR Blue like you have on your STi RWDPLZ. The WR Blue on a sporty Subaru is kind of a no brainer. If I get the FR-S, it'll be Hot Lava orange. That orange color I'm really partial to overall, and think just goes well with the overall design of the car.
Fformula88 JUN 10, 08:13 AM

quote
Originally posted by Fiero84Freak:

I'll say something which may sound superficial; color will likely be the deciding choice for me. If I go with the BRZ I'm going to have to go with the WR Blue like you have on your STi RWDPLZ. The WR Blue on a sporty Subaru is kind of a no brainer. If I get the FR-S, it'll be Hot Lava orange. That orange color I'm really partial to overall, and think just goes well with the overall design of the car.



My wife and I got a second, extended drive yesterday in a BRZ. For the fun of it, I drove a WRX after as well to make some comparisons. (Both to the BRZ, and the 2007 WRX I used to own)

Having some more time behind the wheel, I have decided the power is more than adequate for this car. It just takes learning about being better shifting the car, and keeping it more in the sweet spot of the engine's power band.

The BRZ is a scalpel in the turns. It is amazing how easy and exact it is to place.

It is just flat out fun.

The WRX, although not really a fair comparison anyway, was a nice car but is no comparison. The steering in comparison felt sloppy. The car never was exactly where I wanted it on the road. Also, I have to say that going back to the 2.0L turbo from the 2.5L I had in my 2007 does not help the feeling of power. The turbo is rather peaky, with lag low in the RPM range. I got the impresson you would have to really beat on the clutch/drivetrain to really get the speed out of the car. Now, had I not driven the BRZ, I think the WRX would feel very sporty and a lot of fun, but it's Impreza roots are clear on the drive too. Interior and equipment upgrades are nice.

I really think the BRZ will be my next toy. It does the things I would want it to amazingly well (handline, steering, dynamic feel).

I agree on color too. The WR Blue just looks terrific on this car. (ALthough, I have to say, I really like the darker Galaxy Blue on the BRZ too, but it was discontinued for 2014).