MSNBC's Lawrence O'Donnell has more up his sleeve than Pimpin'... Lies of Blue. (Page 1/2)
rinselberg DEC 28, 04:28 AM
Pimpin'... Lies of Blue. That was part of a recent conversation. 'Nuff said.

On the day (or the day after) Nikki Haley riffed about the causes of the Civil War without letting the word "Slavery" pass from her lips, and a federal judge ruled in favor of the removal of a prominent Confederate memorial from Arlington National Cemetery, the venerable MSNBC prime time anchor was joined by the former Executive Editor for the New York Times, Howell Raines.

Raines' new book Silent Cavalry chronicles the little known history of the many thousands of white southerners who joined the Union Army and helped put an end to the Confederacy and to the system of slavery that the Confederacy hoped to perpetuate.

Raines discusses his personal connection to this history, involving his own ancestors.


8 MINUTES of video.

[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 12-28-2023).]

82-T/A [At Work] DEC 28, 09:23 AM

quote
Originally posted by rinselberg:

Pimpin'... Lies of Blue. That was part of a recent conversation. 'Nuff said.

On the day (or the day after) Nikki Haley riffed about the causes of the Civil War without letting the word "Slavery" pass from her lips, and a federal judge ruled in favor of the removal of a prominent Confederate memorial from Arlington National Cemetery, the venerable MSNBC prime time anchor was joined by the former Executive Editor for the New York Times, Howell Raines.

Raines' new book Silent Cavalry chronicles the little known history of the many thousands of white southerners who joined the Union Army and helped put an end to the Confederacy and to the system of slavery that the Confederacy hoped to perpetuate.

Raines discusses his personal connection to this history, involving his own ancestors.


8 MINUTES of video.




Look... these were Democrats... all of them. And unless you're going to tell me the FDR was a Republican, or Eisenhower was a Democrat, and Al Gore's father was a Republican and Prescott Bush a Democrat, then I think we can all (even if it pains you) that these were all Democrats. As I've expressed ad-nauseum... until around 1998-2002, every "southern" state was a solid blue state. When I moved to Florida in 1996, it was MORE solid-blue Democrat then than California is blue today. So... revisionist history has NO place in in this discussion.

With all of that said... these are people who willingly fought for a cause they believed in. The Civil War was about state's rights... which encompassed their perceived right to slavery. Any mildly educated person on the topic understands that slavery was only one aspect of it. It had as much to do with taxation and a perceived lack of rights compared to the more populace states / 13 original colonies, as it did slavery. I say this as someone who's only link to American lineage is through my mom's father, who's family has always been Republican and fought for the Union Army. So I have absolutely no reason to want to defend Confederates, and the Democrats of 150+ years ago.

Never the less... these are people who willingly fought for a cause... which makes it much different than say, statues of Stalin or of Saddam Hussein. The post-reconstruction AMERICAN bi-partisan congress passed a bill in the 50s which, despite all the "fact checkers" did in fact state that Confederate soldiers would be considered veterans. I'm posting a USA Today article here which literally defines this... even though it says it's false: https://www.usatoday.com/st...veterans/3263720001/

"This amendment to the Veterans’ Benefit Act does indeed expand the definition of “veteran” to include “a person who served in the military or naval forces of the Confederate States of America during the Civil War.” However, the act also clearly specifies that this inclusion applies “for the purpose of this section, and section 433."

They were also given special Veteran burial rights in Arlington National Cemetery, within the confines of the Robert E. Lee estate.

As someone who obviously does not support your party's origins, the things they've done, and even had family that fought against your family... I still think these people deserve respect and they should be allowed to keep their memorials in places where it honors the cause that those people fought for. It's absolutely no skin off my back, and shouldn't under any circumstance bother anyone else. That people are so fundamentally "offended" by things that do not directly affect them at all speaks more about how much our culture has fallen, than it does about our strength. For Democrats... this is a way for them to quickly and quietly erase their own history. I think we ALL recognize this...
ray b DEC 28, 09:44 AM
PARTY LABEL = DEMO SURE

NOW PLACE THEM ON THE EXTREME NUT CONSERVATIVE SURE

why do modern nut-con on always totally forget the conservative slave owners were never liberal
BingB DEC 28, 03:03 PM
Nikki just can't get any traction.

Republicans need to get behind her. She is their best bet for winning the general election. Trump lost the last time BEFORE he went crazy with the "stolen election" stuff. I don't see anyway he can win.

Nikki would also help with the abortion issue. Dems see that as a weakness for Republicans. It would help to have a female candidate to counter some of that.

[This message has been edited by BingB (edited 12-29-2023).]

rinselberg DEC 28, 09:15 PM
Nikki Haley says "of course" Civil War was about Slavery, after backlash to her previous remarks which omitted Slavery.
https://youtu.be/ZGvflDv8_Dc

Confederate statues removed from park in Jacksonville, Florida.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/12...k-florida/index.html

Federal judge rules that the large sculpture that comprises the Confederate Memorial in Arlington National Cemetery should be removed from Arlington National Cemetery and taken somewhere else.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/12...l-removal/index.html

"What Am I Making" blogger Matty C says that Arlington House at the Arlington National Cemetery is the only memorial to the Confederacy that should be left in place. Arlington House is most emphatically NOT the Confederate Memorial sculpture or statuary that is now going to be removed from Arlington National Cemetery.
https://whatamimaking.subst...il&utm_content=share

[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 12-28-2023).]

olejoedad DEC 28, 10:29 PM
Arlington National Cemetery was the home of Robert E. Lee.

He donated it to the Federal Government after the Civil War, specifically to be used as a cemetery for fallen American soldiers.

Many of the Union and Confederate Generals studied together prior to the Civil War, knew each other and were friends. Many struggled with the decision to stay loyal to the US Army, or to serve their States. It was a different time, and States rights were paramount over allegiance to the Nation.

Even though they fought on different sides, they were all Americans, fighting for what they believed in, which was prodominatly States rights.

The Memorial should stay.

Edit to add - I edited this post in light of rinse's post below. As this land was Federal land at the time of the building of the monument, it would be interesting to research the background of the permitting process to authorize it's construction.

[This message has been edited by olejoedad (edited 12-29-2023).]

rinselberg DEC 29, 01:46 AM

quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

Arlington National Cemetery was the home of Robert E. Lee.

He donated it to the Federal Government after the Civil War, specifically to be used as a cemetery for fallen American soldiers.

Many of the Union and Confederate Generals studied together prior to the Civil War, knew each other and were friends. Many struggled with the decision to stay loyal to the US Army, or to serve their States. It was a different time, and States rights were paramount over allegiance to the Nation.

Even though they fought on different sides, they were all Americans, fighting for what they believed in, which was prodominatly States rights.

The Memorial should stay.


Robert E. Lee and his wife inherited the Custis estate in 1857, just a few years before the first shots of the Civil War were fired. The Custis estate was comprised by an imposing Greek Revival-style mansion that became known as Arlington House, and the surrounding land that would become part of Arlington National Cemetery.

It is misleading to say that Robert E. Lee "donated" the land for Arlington National Cemetery to the federal government after the Civil War.

This brief history, which is posted on the Arlington National Cemetery official website, tells a different story:
https://www.arlingtoncemete...tery/Arlington-House

Here's some "skinny" on the Confederate Memorial which is in the process of being removed from the grounds of Arlington National Cemetery:

quote
The bronze statue—designed by American sculptor Moses Jacob Ezekiel and unveiled in 1914—depicts a woman atop a 32-foot-tall pedestal. The figure is wearing a crown adorned with olive leaves, holding a laurel wreath, a plow stock and a pruning hook, according to the cemetery. A Biblical inscription at her feet reads, “They have beat their swords into plough-shares and their spears into pruning hooks.”

Other figures on the monument include a Black woman depicted as a “Mammy,” carrying an infant of a White officer, and a Black man following his owner to war, according to the cemetery.

Though the monument’s bronze elements [are] to be removed, its granite base and foundation [are] to [remain] at the site [at least for the more immediate future] to avoid disturbing surrounding graves, cemetery officials [have] said.


This is the garish, Jim Crow-era monument to the national, and particularly the Southern States spirit of White Supremacy that upended Reconstruction after the Civil War—a loathsome specimen of "Lost Cause," Confederacy-themed kitsch if ever there was one!

The federal judge whose rulings are expediting this long overdue task of "taking out the garbage" is Rossie David Alston, Jr. He's making these sage and savvy calls as a U.S. District Court Judge for the Eastern District of Virginia. He was nominated by none other than the 45th President of the United States, Donald John Trump, and confirmed by the Senate on June 10, 2019, with 75 votes to confirm and 20 votes against.


"That old Confederate shrine that's been stinking up Arlington National Cemetery for all these years... it's time for that 'sucker' to go!"

[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 12-29-2023).]

olejoedad DEC 29, 06:17 AM
That is interesting history, rinse.

Thank you for researching and sharing.

(My maternal grandmother was a ([insert the proper number of greats] grand niece of Martha Curtis Washington.)
BingB DEC 29, 06:01 PM
The argument that the Civil War was not about slavery is easily debunked.

First of all there is the long history of the conflict over slavery in the US Congress for decades before the War. There was not another single "state right" that produced legislation like The Missouri Compromise with different laws in different regions.

Then there were the "Declarations of Secession" from the Confederate States that specifically state that they are leaving the Union over the issue of slavery. They even refer to "other slave holding States" when discussing the other states in the Confederacy. See for yourself https://www.battlefields.or...uses-seceding-states

And finally, if the Confederacy was all about states rights then why did their constitution make it illegal for any state to ban slavery? Basically they were in favor of Sates Rights as long as they did not mess with slavery. The Confederacy was established for the main purpose of preserving the institution of chattel slavery.

It is also interesting to note that the politics in the south have not changed regarding states rights. That is still a major plank in the platform of the political party that controls the south. But now that "states rights" mantra is championed by the Republican Party instead of the old south Democrats. The two parties have basically flipped podtions on this issue.

[This message has been edited by BingB (edited 12-29-2023).]

cliffw JAN 04, 12:30 PM

quote
Originally posted by rinselberg:
... a federal judge ruled in favor of the removal of a prominent Confederate memorial from Arlington National Cemetery ...



What is the name of that statue ?