Party of "democracy" shut down by judge for being undemocratic... (Page 1/2) 82-T/A [At Work] AUG 27, 08:51 AM I can't even list the number of times that Democrats have blamed others for "something," only to literally be the ones most guilty of the alleged claim. Like when they claimed Trump was guilty of Russian collusion, when we find out in fact that Hillary was the one colluding with the Russians. Once again... we find the people who say they're "defending democracy" are apparently the ones trying to violate it by doing whatever they can to keep people off the ballot, like Jill Stein: https://justthenews.com/pol...e-ballot-green-party Thankfully, even a liberal judge shot the DNC down and said to take a hike... NewDustin AUG 27, 10:28 AM quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: We find the people who say they're "defending democracy" are apparently the ones trying to violate it by doing whatever they can to keep people off the ballot, like Jill Stein: https://justthenews.com/pol...e-ballot-green-party Thankfully, even a liberal judge shot the DNC down and said to take a hike... The two major parties continue to treat 3rd parties like a landmine to lay for their opponent. Weird that the Republicans all of a sudden love Jill Stein and Cornel West's campaigns enough to provide monetary and logistic support, right? Or that the Democrats are suing to stop those same candidacies and bemoaning RFK Jr supporting Trump? They aren't even pretending like franchise matters; this is all gamesmanship. olejoedad AUG 27, 10:53 AM Washington warned us of the pitfalls of parties in his farewell address. Back in their times, they had time to think, as there was not the cacophony of modern life to distract. 82-T/A [At Work] AUG 27, 11:01 AM quote Originally posted by NewDustin: The two major parties continue to treat 3rd parties like a landmine to lay for their opponent. Weird that the Republicans all of a sudden love Jill Stein and Cornel West's campaigns enough to provide monetary and logistic support, right? Or that the Democrats are suing to stop those same candidacies and bemoaning RFK Jr supporting Trump? They aren't even pretending like franchise matters; this is all gamesmanship. Yes, so about that. Please tell me one time that Republicans sued to get a 3rd party candidate removed from the ballot? This is something Democrats do every single year, in almost every single sstate... but I've never seen a Republican do it. This is the thing that upsets me. There are a lot of people who have a hard time dealing with the acknowledgement that what they're supporting is bad. Especially if they've been a Democrat for so many years of their life that it's almost a way of life, or part of their identity. They get into this constant ideology of trying to mentally maneuver around these political failures to convince themselves that it's not as bad as it seems, or that somehow it was justified. This is how we get into the fallacy of "at any cost," and "the end justifies the means." Common among this mindset too, when confronted with something a person simply cannot deny or refute, but feels necessary to defend, they go for the "everyone is bad," argument. I've literally typed into Google, "Republicans sue to keep off ballot" ... and the only thing I get, FROM GOOGLE, is a list of 3rd party candidates that the Democrat party in multiple states (for multiple years) are trying to get removed from the ballot. Mind you... this is Google, who greatly filters results when it KNOWs the results are undesirable for Democrats. The only "Republican is bad" thing I see here, are Republicans suing to keep Biden ON THE BALLOT, and then two very left-leaning Republicans (both who ended up losing their primary if I remember correctly), trying to sue to keep Trump OFF the ballot. None of these Republican ones had anything to do with 3rd party candidates. So, I ask again, please show me where a single Republican has sued to keep a 3rd party candidate off the ballot. I can find dozens and dozens of examples just this election for Democrats. I'm unable to find any for Republican. I'm actually shocked, because I would have been sure there'd at least be one, so I'm hoping you can find it. But it's possible maybe they aren't. I see no problem with either party wasting their money propping up another candidate. There's nothing "undemocratic" about that. NewDustin AUG 27, 12:19 PM quote Originally posted by olejoedad: Washington warned us of the pitfalls of parties in his farewell address. Back in their times, they had time to think, as there was not the cacophony of modern life to distract. And yet the two-party system fell, nearly wholly-formed, from the womb of his administration. The founders didn't have the data we do, nor the understanding of what causes parties to form. That they missed the mark so completely after trying to hard is one of their chief tragedies. cliffw AUG 27, 01:17 PM quote Originally posted by NewDustin: The founders didn't have the data we do, nor the understanding of what causes parties to form. The founders did have to politic against the loyalists of the King. I think Washington did understand what causes parties to form. Which is why he warned against it. NewDustin AUG 27, 04:25 PM quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Yes, so about that. Please tell me one time that Republicans sued to get a 3rd party candidate removed from the ballot? This is something Democrats do every single year, in almost every single sstate... but I've never seen a Republican do it. This is the thing that upsets me. There are a lot of people who have a hard time dealing with the acknowledgement that what they're supporting is bad. Especially if they've been a Democrat for so many years of their life that it's almost a way of life, or part of their identity. They get into this constant ideology of trying to mentally maneuver around these political failures to convince themselves that it's not as bad as it seems, or that somehow it was justified. This is how we get into the fallacy of "at any cost," and "the end justifies the means." Common among this mindset too, when confronted with something a person simply cannot deny or refute, but feels necessary to defend, they go for the "everyone is bad," argument. I've literally typed into Google, "Republicans sue to keep off ballot" ... and the only thing I get, FROM GOOGLE, is a list of 3rd party candidates that the Democrat party in multiple states (for multiple years) are trying to get removed from the ballot. Mind you... this is Google, who greatly filters results when it KNOWs the results are undesirable for Democrats. The only "Republican is bad" thing I see here, are Republicans suing to keep Biden ON THE BALLOT, and then two very left-leaning Republicans (both who ended up losing their primary if I remember correctly), trying to sue to keep Trump OFF the ballot. None of these Republican ones had anything to do with 3rd party candidates. So, I ask again, please show me where a single Republican has sued to keep a 3rd party candidate off the ballot. I can find dozens and dozens of examples just this election for Democrats. I'm unable to find any for Republican. I'm actually shocked, because I would have been sure there'd at least be one, so I'm hoping you can find it. But it's possible maybe they aren't. I'm not a Democrat. As in, never registered Democrat, never voted for a Democrat in a national or state election (or local, I think, but maybe?). I was a registered Republican up until I left the service in 2008, then registered as an independent about halfway through college but was really experimenting with libertarianism and objectivism. I'm still a registered independent now, but I care much more about efficient and effective policy creation than I do about Party issues. My beliefs are still largely rooted in libertarian ideology, though there's a healthy dose of statism involved now, or at least acceptance of its inevitability. ...all that to say I have no vested interest in the Democrats, or Biden/Harris/whomever, being right. "Nobody's right when everybody's wrong" is not false equivalency. I'm not sure why you've settled on lawsuits as the measure for how third party candidates are repressed. The laws governing third parties are equally restrictive in both Republican-led and Democratic-led states, and the number of lawsuits would be -at the very best- a tangential statistic on administrative differences. If the Republicans are doing a better job at extending franchise to third parties, "how often Democrats sue" has no direct role in demonstrating or supporting that. quote I see no problem with either party wasting their money propping up another candidate. There's nothing "undemocratic" about that. They aren't wasting their money, they are attempting to influence the outcome of the election by controlling the agenda of their opponents' potential voters. That's not an opinion, it is expressly why they are doing it. Whatever terms you use to portray it, it's the exact same game the Democrats are engaging in with the lawsuits. NewDustin AUG 27, 04:36 PM quote Originally posted by cliffw: The founders did have to politic against the loyalists of the King. I think Washington did understand what causes parties to form. Which is why he warned against it. They believed they would be able to control it via the extended Republic (ie not direct voting for Senators/laws/etc), the Separation of Powers, Checks and Balances, etc. They believed that "faction" could be guarded against and mitigated via the constitution. We know now that is not the case. Factions (Parties) will arise regardless, and the makeup of them will be largely determined by voting system (something else the founders had no idea of). They understood parties, but about the way medieval doctors understood medicine. They just didn't have the body of knowledge to draw upon that we have now. Doug85GT AUG 27, 05:08 PM Jill Stein, Cornel West, RFK Jr., and Donald Trump: the Democrats have tried to remove all of them from various ballots. Then to top it all off, the Democrats removed their own candidate that won the primaries across the country and installed their hand picked candidate. There is not much democratic about the Democrats. BingB AUG 28, 11:30 AM When John Anderson split from the Republican Party and ran as an independant in 1980 he had to win multiple lawsuits filed by Republicans to keep him off the ballot. Republicans also tried hard to keep Perot off the ballot in '92 but I don't know if they filed any lawsuits. But the point has already been made that BOTH the Republican and Democrat Party try to keep third party candidates off the ballots when it will hurt them. BOTH parties control the laws that allow access to the ballot. BOTH parties control who appears on national debates.