Europeen style 3800 turbo swap - what do you think ? (Page 1/14)
Englishrafe FEB 23, 05:24 AM
OK, here goes my "build thread" for my fiero.

The base: '87 Fiero GT - owned for about 4 years and used as a daily driver just untill some a$$hole vandalised the car !

The mods allready undertaken: RDickman ball-joint lowered front, homemade coilover rear, big brake booster conversion, 7730 ECM (no longer needed as I'll be going 3800), modified Fiero intake and a few other little mods to make the 2.8 breath (again no longer needed).

The major works underway: Total body panel off respray - all painted now in two tone Maserati Green. I won't be putting the panels back on untill the engine swap is finished.
3800 series 2 engine (to be prepared) and big(ish) GT 3776 turbo.

Concerning the 3800 engine, I would like some feedback from you "guys-n-gals" because you're the greatest 3800 experts and I love all your write-ups on your engine swaps !

I won't go into how difficult it is to find a (good) series 2 engine in Europe! Let's just say I learn't very quickly the difference between a series 1 and series 2 !! (DarthFiero knows what I'm talking about !! --> I should write a book: "Engine ID for dummies" !!)
Well after a 3600km round trip to northern Germany, I am the proud owner of an '98 series 2 N/A 3800 with only 5K miles on it !
(Ex Chevy Lumina staff car used on a now decommissioned US military base - don't ask me how the locals got hold of the staff cars after the base was vacated? All I know is that this engine is spotless ! No wear at all !)

So what do you think ? What should I do in order to make a good reliable high output turbo motor?
Just to let you know, I don't have limited budget (within reason!), but I don't want to spend mega Euros on things that won't really help make this a good fast road going Fiero. I want to be able to "sting" a few Porches on the Nürburgring but this is not going to be an all out stripped down race car.

Here is what I think needs to be done:
S/C rods and forged pistons.
Off the shelf turbo cam (Stage 2, XP or eqivalent) with stock ratio rockers.
Custom stainless steel exhaust headers in order to mount the turbo at equal distance from the two banks. (Will be homemade as I'm a very good welder.)
Light head work just to port and polish the runners.
Necessary mods to fuel system - 60# injectors, good fuel pump etc...
Intercooler - thinking of a water/air unit with a secondary radiator up in the front.
Big oil cooler.

As I said earlier, I am looking for feedback/experience from those that have allready gone this way?

I will put up some photos as soon as I have remembered where my photobucket account is ??!

Regards,
Rafe
Englishrafe FEB 23, 08:13 AM
Here are a few photos:

The car before starting the rebuild:



The car as it is today in my garage:


The 3800 motor as it was on Sunday afternoon before dismanteling:


And the motor 4 or 5 hours later after the strip down:




Here is the turbo - brand new, never used and bought for 1/2 price!




And to finish, here are some of the body panels being painted by my local garage:


So there it is for the moment.
I will post a few more photos tomorrow of the balance shaft removal and oil hole plug (got the day off work - yeah!). I will also be drilling a few more oil return holes in the valley.
MadMark FEB 23, 11:53 AM
First of all, good luck on this project. It should be a great project, but will be hampered by access to parts.

One of the first things I would suggest is to find a series II N/A intake manifold from a Camaro or Firebird on Ebay and have it shipped to you. You should be able to find one for around $125 or so. This intake manifold is made of aluminum and should hold up better for your application. It also would point the throttle body in the direction of the normal battery mount.

The second thing I would suggest is to go with a direct air to air heat exchanger for the intercooler. While the water cooled ones work they are first of all less effective because you have two boundaries to transfer heat across. The first one is the front radiator so you have an air to water interface which can only cool to a few degrees above ambient. Then you will have another heat transfer boundary at the water to air intercooler, which will also have a delta T or difference in temperature across it.
If you use a direct air to air intercooler you will have lower Delta T and better cooling of the charged air. DarthFiero has been very effective in mounting the intercooler under the car just in front of the engine, with a bit of ducting to guide the air over the intercooler.

The reason I know anything at all about this is that I have been considering doing this too. However, for now it is on hold.

There are a lot of other people out there that can give you more specifics about a turbo installation.

Good luck with your project.
Darth Fiero FEB 23, 04:40 PM
Rafe, it sounds like you are pretty much on-track for what you are wanting to build here. I think the forged pistons and stock S/C rods are a good idea; just make sure your machine shop does a good balance job on the complete rotating assembly when you do the build.

I will echo what MadMark said and suggest the use of a 95-98 Camaro/Firebird 3800 intake since it is all-aluminum (99-02 F-body 3800 intakes can also be used but had a different throttle body and different angle of mounting it on the intake). If you get the valve covers off of one of these engines those are metal too so you can have them powdercoated. Using this 95-98 F-body intake in a Fiero points the throttle body at the stock Fiero battery location which means you'll need to move the battery and remove the battery tray; but makes charge air pipe routing from an air-to-air intercooler mounted under the car (in front of the cradle) a snap.

The 3800 Series 3 N/A FWD (L26) engine did also have an all-aluminum intake but the throttle body points at the passenger side of the car. And if you are going to mount your turbo over the transmission - this won't leave you with very much room over there for charge air piping if you plan on running any intercooler.

In addition to what Mark said about the water-to-air coolers, keep in mind they do add considerable weight and complexity to the car; plus you have to run a pair of water lines for it up to the front of the car which you really don't have room for under the Fiero. Another drawback of that system is you don't know if it is working or not unless you have some kind of temp sensor mounted in the charge air cooler portion to tell you if it is cooling the charge air effectively or not. I've seen several people toast engines that had air-to-water charge cooling systems because the pump failed or some other situation occured in the system that caused the coolant to stop flowing (such as an air pocket). An air-to-air intercooler is much more simple and it just works. The only way it stops working is if it gets clogged up by excessive road debris (like paper, plastic, trash, etc) or a dead animal. But I'm sure you're going to know if you run over something big enough to cause a problem.

Truth be told in all the years I've driven my car with the IC mounted under it; I've never had anything clog it up - and I have run over some animals (dead or otherwise).

-ryan

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OVERKILL IS UNDERRATED

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Joseph Upson FEB 23, 06:56 PM

quote
Originally posted by MadMark:
The second thing I would suggest is to go with a direct air to air heat exchanger for the intercooler. While the water cooled ones work they are first of all less effective because you have two boundaries to transfer heat across. The first one is the front radiator so you have an air to water interface which can only cool to a few degrees above ambient. Then you will have another heat transfer boundary at the water to air intercooler, which will also have a delta T or difference in temperature across it.
If you use a direct air to air intercooler you will have lower Delta T and better cooling of the charged air. DarthFiero has been very effective in mounting the intercooler under the car just in front of the engine, with a bit of ducting to guide the air over the intercooler.



I have to constructively disagree here. It sounds logical in theory but without documented results I don't believe this to be true in a Fiero based on my experience with the subject in a Fiero. I mounted an intercooler just ahead of the cradle and went a step further by having it hang about 2" below the cradle so that it would partially receive direct exposure to the expected air stream under the car.



The end result proved to be a waste of time and effort, the amount of air flowing under the car toward the intercooler was not sufficient enough for me to note any significant difference in the air inlet temps on the datalog when comparing the before and after install temps. In the process I scored a direct hit over a dead animal in the road so in a way I was punished for my efforts with having to clean that crap out of the core afterwards.

Further more, with such little air flow underneath the car, I'd expect a fan setup sufficient enough to do a proper job would consist of some serious shielding and shrouding work to prevent the same kind of hot air recirculation that can occur up front with the coolant fan if you remove the upper and lower dam system as well as some very good fans/motors and not the ebay type 7-10" fans where the center disc takes up about half the diameter. Until someone shows data that proves different from what I experienced. The air to water intercooler will very likely perform very well as long as the radiator is up front and in the air stream.

I don't buy the poor efficiency theory due to the dual exhcange cores at all, especially when you consider how well the little heater core a number of times smaller than a proper sized liquid air cooler heats up the car. If that little heater core can put out air hot enough to make it difficult to hold your hand close to the vent (mine does), a liquid to air intercooler should have very good heat exchange ability provided the radiator is sized correctly. Having mounted an intercooler in the front of the car and in the rear, I don't see an air to air cooler in front of the cradle besting a good liquid to air setup even with fans and so far no one with either system in a Fiero has posted datalog numbers to give any further insight.

I plan to do the air to water.
Justinbart FEB 23, 09:19 PM
I never get more than a 16* temp rise with my air to water. That is unheard of with an air to air.

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Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

darkhorizon FEB 23, 09:33 PM
The plastic L36 intake has been proven to be a great performing intake... and pressure tests to well over 100PSI without issue.

I have ran a plastic intake on multiple turbo cars for years now without a single issue, and dyno proven power.... I dont see why these wannabees are coming into this thread saying you need to have an aluminum one.
Englishrafe FEB 24, 02:00 AM
Good input from all of you.
However, I'm a couple of months away from buying any of the intake system - so we'll talk plastic, aluminium, left/right facing, air/water, air/air, mounting position etc... once the engine is back on the subframe (cradle).

What are your ideas about compression ratio?
Bearing in mind that in Europe I can fill my car with 95 or 98 grade fuel, should I consider going to the highest comp ratio pistons available? The 9.5:1 ones.
Is this pushing it a bit with iron heads ?
What are you running ? 8:1? 8.5:1? 9.5:1?
Yes I know we'll come back to the inter-cooler question, but lets just say that there will be good inter-cooling.

I do have a little experience with turbo engines having raced a Renault 5 Gordini Turbo in the past. This car was not inter-cooled (draw through carburettor) and in order to boost higher, we used to decompress the engine with a thicker head gasket down to about 7.5:1. However, this made bottom end response rather sluggish. But wow did that thing fly once the engine hit 3500 rpm and the turbo really started to boost!
For the Fiero, I would like to avoid burning out my tires in 4th gear at 110km/h because the turbo kicks in super hard and uncontrollably! (I remember Justin's write-up of a similar experience.)

I think that keeping a reasonably good atmospheric phase of the motor with higher compression is the way to go. Not exploding my Getrag with shock loading would also come into the equation!

Rafe

[This message has been edited by Englishrafe (edited 02-24-2012).]

sardonyx247 FEB 24, 02:28 AM

quote
Originally posted by Englishrafe:

Bearing in mind that in Europe I can fill my car with 95 or 98 grade fuel,



keep in mind over there gas is graded differently, so your 95-98 ratings are not even close to the US ratings. We take the high and low and avg the rating, over there they just use the high rating, FYI.

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"DRIVE IT LIKE A FIERO"
'84 Fiero, engine to be determined
'87Blue GT 3.4L Swap Completed!!!!!!!! Boosted!!!!!!!
^^^^ Now in the Construction Zone^^^^
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Fiero Road Club Of Northern Nevada

Englishrafe FEB 24, 02:59 AM

quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:


keep in mind over there gas is graded differently



Our 95 is eqivalent to your 85 and our 98 is eqivalent to your 88.
I think that comes from the RON - Research Octane Nomber and the MON - Motor Octane Number measuring methods used.
Whatever, I can, in general, put higher grade fuel in my tank in Europe. Most Europeen car manufacturers make higher compression motors than their American counterparts.
We have also E10 fuel which is supposed to be quite good too ?
Anyway, I think that I could run higher compression ratio in this motor?
Rafe