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| Need Help Diagnosing Starting Issue ('84 manual) (Page 1/4) |
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Fienix
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JUL 23, 05:49 PM
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I hope I'm posting this in the right forum and that someone is able to give me some guidance. Bear in mind I'm learning as I go here and don't know a whole lot about working on cars.
I bought my '84 2M4 4 speed Fiero last year, running but not driveable. Had someone with Fiero knowledge replace the clutch for me, while they had the car they said it didn't want to start anymore so they also replaced the starter. My clutch pedal safety switch was kind of wonky from the get go, for a while I had it rigged up with zip ties, then one day while driving to work the plastic rod part of the switch finally snapped. I used a bent staple to jump the connector to get me to work and get home that day. This isn't my primary car so I didn't drive it to work again and since the staple jump seemed to work I left it stuck inside the plug that the yellow and purple wires go into and secured it with some electrical tape. I'm realizing now this was probably a mistake since these are pretty thick wires and a staple is obviously not very thick.
Fast forward a few months and I started having starting issues. The car would start fine at home, but then wouldn't start again if I shut it off somewhere. Had to get it towed home from a gas station and then get help bump starting it on a couple other occasions. I tried to rig up something better for the clutch pedal switch. I removed the white part that bolts to the pedal and removed the spring from inside and secured it so it was always making contact, then plugged it into the black connector. I thought this was working but apparently it's not as the car doesn't want to start at all now.
I'm trying to decide my next action here. I am getting 12V from the battery so I don't think it's battery related, and today I got under the car and checked the large terminal on the starter and I'm getting 12V there too. I did not check voltage from the smaller terminal when trying to start yet since I think the clutch pedal switch is preventing it from even trying to start.
While under the car I noticed my oil pan gasket is leaking oil onto the starter. Also I believe there's supposed to be a heat shield between the engine and the starter which it doesn't look like I have. Could either of these have killed a relatively new starter?
I want to verify that the clutch pedal switch isn't the problem here, I'm worried I may have fried something with my initial jumping method. Can I stick a wire in the black connector or should I cut it off and solder the wires together? What gauge are the yellow and purple wires? I've heard 8G and 10G so I want to be sure. This site mentions checking the resistance of the switch. Where would I put the multimeter probes to do this?
Sorry this is a lot of text! Any input or advice is appreciated. I'm starting to think I've gotten in over my head with this car and maybe need to cut my losses, but that thought makes me sad.  [This message has been edited by Fienix (edited 07-23-2022).]
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Patrick
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JUL 23, 06:34 PM
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From what I've read, I can't determine whether you have an engine starting issue, or a starter issue. They're quite different.
When you turn the key to Start, is the starter turning over the engine? I'm not asking if the engine starts.
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Fienix
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JUL 23, 10:47 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Patrick:
From what I've read, I can't determine whether you have an engine starting issue, or a starter issue. They're quite different.
When you turn the key to Start, is the starter turning over the engine? I'm not asking if the engine starts. |
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My bad, I should have been more specific about that. When I turn the key nothing happens. It doesn't turn over/crank, tach doesn't move.
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Patrick
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JUL 24, 12:44 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by Fienix:
It doesn't turn over/crank...
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It might be a faulty clutch safety switch, but you're way overthinking what needs to be done to bypass the safety switch. On my '84, I didn't want to bother stepping the clutch in to start the engine... so I unplugged the harness from the switch and used a short insulated piece of solid core copper house wiring to jump from one terminal to the other on the harness. I wouldn't advise doing this if anyone else has access to your car, as sure as heck someone's going to try starting the car while it's in gear. It's much safer to have a functioning clutch safety switch in place.
If those two wires/terminals are jumpered and still nothing happens when the key is turned, I'd try jumping the main power terminal on the starter to the smaller power terminal with a screwdriver. If you wish to try this, make sure not to touch ground (starter body, frame, block) with the screwdriver (fireworks!)... and for gawd's sake make sure the transmission is out of gear!
Question(s)... when you turn the key to On/Run (not Start), do you hear the fuel pump prime for two seconds? If not, did you ever notice this previously when the engine was still capable of starting?[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 07-24-2022).]
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Fienix
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JUL 25, 06:46 PM
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I do hear the fuel pump priming when I turn the key to Run. The only thing that happens when I turn the key to Start is the oil temp gauge moves all the way to the end. I tried to jump the terminals with a piece of wire and that didn't work either. I did notice that one of the terminals (I think it was the one connected to the purple wire) was kind of loose in the harness connector. I wonder if this could be causing it to not make a good connection? Is it possible that I fried a fuse somewhere?
If I wanted to try jumping the starter, would I just need to turn the key to Run and then do this? Seems like it would be tough though, even when I was under the car with it jacked up the starter was difficult to see/reach.
I'm not too worried about anyone having access to the car so I wouldn't mind having the switch bypassed permanently. I can't fix it anyway since mine is busted and it doesn't seem like replacements are easily available. When the car is not being driven it's in my garage and I pretty much only take it to shows or for short drives to friends or relatives houses.
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Patrick
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JUL 25, 07:20 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Fienix:
I tried to jump the terminals with a piece of wire and that didn't work either.
If I wanted to try jumping the starter...
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Okay, listen carefully. Please... do NOT try and jump the starter. This isn't a slight or an insult... but if you're having this much trouble trying to jump the harness connection for the clutch safety switch, I do NOT want you under the car trying to jump the starter. People die under cars. I don't want my earlier suggestion potentially killing you.
Please get someone with a bit more experience to give you a hand there.[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 07-25-2022).]
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sanderson231
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JUL 25, 07:58 PM
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I just cut the wires to the clutch safety switch and wire nutted them together.
If you want to hot wire the starter the safe way to do it is with remote switch. You could use a household electrical switch and some good sized wire. I would use 12 gauge. One wire from the switch is connected to the starter solenoid and the other to the battery positive terminal. If you don't want to make something up , Harbor Freight sells pne for $12.------------------
formerly known as sanderson
1984 Quad 4
1886 SE 2.8L
1988 4.9L Cadillac
1988 3800 Supercharged
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Fienix
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JUL 25, 08:05 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Patrick:
Okay, listen carefully. Please... do NOT try and jump the starter. This isn't a slight or an insult... but if you're having this much trouble trying to jump the harness connection for the clutch safety switch, I do NOT want you under the car trying to jump the starter. People die under cars. I don't want my earlier suggestion potentially killing you.
Please get someone with a bit more experience to give you a hand there.
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Hey that's why I asked for clarification, cuz it's not something I really feel comfortable doing. If I could access the starter from the top of the car I'd give it a shot but it seems a bit too risky for my level of knowledge.
I do know how to jump the clutch safety switch connection because I had it jumped for months after the switch first broke, so I hope I don't sound too clueless. The fact that jumping it worked for that long and now suddenly doesn't is what makes me think this is clutch safety switch related. Then again, since it's a nearly 40 year old car, it could be anything.
| quote | Originally posted by sanderson231:
I just cut the wires to the clutch safety switch and wire nutted them together.
If you want to hot wire the starter the safe way to do it is with remote switch. You could use a household electrical switch and some good sized wire. I would use 12 gauge. One wire from the switch is connected to the starter solenoid and the other to the battery positive terminal. If you don't want to make something up , Harbor Freight sells pne for $12.
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I think this is what I need to do with the clutch switch at this point, just to rule that out. If that doesn't work, then I know I have a bigger issue to figure out.
This is the switch you're referring to, right? I'm not too electrically savvy (obviously lol) so it would be easier for me to pick one of these up than to try to make one myself.[This message has been edited by Fienix (edited 07-25-2022).]
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Patrick
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JUL 25, 08:33 PM
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So often the only issue preventing a starter from functioning is...
1) weak battery
2) poor connection(s) between positive battery cable and the starter and/or to the battery itself
3) poor connection(s) between negative battery cable and engine block (ground) and/or to the battery itself
(See This thread, and specifically This post.)
4) faulty battery cable(s)
To use that remote starter switch, you'll still need to access the starter (as that's where the solenoid is located).[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 07-25-2022).]
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Fienix
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JUL 25, 09:02 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Patrick:
So often the only issue preventing a starter from functioning is...
1) weak battery
2) poor connection(s) between positive battery cable and the starter and/or to the battery itself
3) poor connection(s) between negative battery cable and engine block (ground) and/or to the battery itself
(See This thread, and specifically This post.)
4) faulty battery cable(s)
To use that remote starter switch, you'll still need to access the starter (as that's where the solenoid is located).
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I did check the battery connection to the starter when I was under the car and it looked/felt secure. I picked up some small wire/brass brushes last time I was at Harbor Freight, I'll see if I can clean up the battery cables/terminals at all and see if that helps. I hit them with a different larger wire brush earlier but I couldn't do much because the brush was too large. It would be great if that's all it was!
I can get to the solenoid to stick a clip to it, but then I can get out from under the car and not have to worry about mishaps, so I'm more comfortable with that than trying to jump it with a screwdriver.
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