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| Fuel, Air, Spark but no Bang (Page 1/3) |
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Intel
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MAY 13, 02:06 PM
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Hi there, old member here from the past but now resurrected.
I've had my 87 Fiero 2.8 in storage for a couple of years (a startup and run until operating temp every now and then) it ran fine when parked with new dist, plugs, wires, module (GM),
Now It's time to take it out. But... can't get it to start. It turns over evenly but not a single hit. Not a poff or a pft...nothing.
Here's what I have done:
- Pumped out all old stale fuel through shrader port. +12v to ALDL connector. Put 20L of fresh fuel in and pumped out some more so it's fresh in the fuel rail and lines.
- Checked fuel pressure: 60 psi on fuel pump only (a little high?, I have an adjustable fuel pressure regulator) and around 40psi when cranking.
- Fuel pump primes fine when key on.
- I smell fuel when I crank and when I check the plugs they all have some fuel on them, but not super wet. They all spark nice and bright.
- No mouse or rat nest in the intake or exhaust.
- Checked the dist, and swapped ignition module to another spare delco. Dist, cap, rotor, wires is the newer type and have only 200 miles on it. But since there's good spark I dont think this is the issue.
- I have good oil pressure when cranking.
- Checked all fuses, relays and coil wires.
- Checked all visible wires in case a mouse chewed on it.
- Fresh battery
- Tested with another stock coil, now running an MSD Blaster.
- I also just for sanity checked plug wire order, but it's correct, they were all marked correctyl when I installed them.
Left to do:
- Check/reset the timing, but why, it ran when parked. Not easy to do when it doesn't start.
- Check my coil with an ohm meter in case the spark is weak.
- Fuel injectors: Just ordered a noid light. Might be clogged or something. The ethanol in the fuel here might be messing with them. I have a spare set of reconditioned/matched injectors but prefer swaping those in my own garage.
- Try starting fluid/spray to check if ignition is working at all.
- Swap out ECM, I have a spare one with stock eprom in it. Right now I have a Memcal with EGR-delete from Fiero Addiction and been running that since 2008 with egr system removed. The other ECM should work but would throw an EGR error.
I'm soon running out of stuff to try, so any pointers is appreciated.
It's extra fun because my storage garage is 6 miles from home and no power or tools there so I have to bring everything from my regular garage.[This message has been edited by Intel (edited 05-13-2023).]
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Patrick
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MAY 13, 05:18 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Intel:
Hi there, old member here from the past but now resurrected.
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Welcome back!
| quote | Originally posted by Intel:
...when I check the plugs... They all spark nice and bright.
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That really tells us next to nothing, as even a weak spark will have no problem jumping a 0.045" gap outside of a pressurized combustion chamber.
A healthy spark will easily snap across a 0.25" gap to ground under atmospheric pressure.
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Intel
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MAY 13, 05:33 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Patrick:
That really tells us next to nothing, as even a weak spark will have no problem jumping a 0.045" gap outside of a pressurized combustion chamber.
A healthy spark will easily snap across a 0.25" gap to ground under atmospheric pressure. |
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Well that's more of an educated guess I made based upon on all the vehicles I've fiddled with through my 50 years. I know a weak spark when I see (or hear) one. This one is not weak. I also tried another coil than my MSD blaster (forgot to mention). Same result.
Besides eyballing the spark or using a spark-plug light I really dont know how to check spark strength. Just putting a nail in the plug boot and see if it jumps a good distance? MIght have to test that. My old stock coil could be bad too...
Adding to my list that I shoud test my coil with an ohm meter.[This message has been edited by Intel (edited 05-13-2023).]
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Patrick
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MAY 13, 06:28 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Intel:
Well that's more of an educated guess I made based upon on all the vehicles I've fiddled with through my 50 years.
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Through my 67 years, I've "fiddled" on vehicles for 53 of them. 
| quote | Originally posted by Intel:
Besides eyballing the spark or using a spark-plug light I really dont know how to check spark strength. Just putting a nail in the plug boot and see if it jumps a good distance?
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Simple. Use a Phillips screwdriver with an insulated handle. Stick the end of the screwdriver into a spark plug lead, and hold the shaft of the screwdriver a quarter inch away from something metal on the engine. Make sure your hand is well away from the metal shaft of the screwdriver! Get someone to crank the engine while you're in position. (If you don't want the engine to start/run while doing this, remove the fuel pump fuse.) Nothing to it.  [This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-25-2024).]
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Intel
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MAY 13, 06:37 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Patrick:
Simple. Use a Phillips screwdriver with an insulated handle. Stick the end of the screwdriver into a spark plug lead, and hold the shaft of the screwdriver a quarter inch away from something metal on the engine. Make sure your hand is well away from the metal shaft of the screwdriver! Get someone to crank the engine while you're in position. Nothing to it. |
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I'll add that to my check/"fiddle" list for tomorrow. Thanks
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shemdogg
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MAY 13, 11:04 PM
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Check injector fuses first. Spray some starting fluid in the throttle body and try to keep it running for a few mins.
shem
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Patrick
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MAY 14, 01:33 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by shemdogg:
Check injector fuses first.
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I didn't suggest that here, as I did in your thread, due to what the OP posted earlier...
| quote | Originally posted by Intel:
- I smell fuel when I crank and when I check the plugs they all have some fuel on them, but not super wet.
- Checked all fuses, relays and coil wires.
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[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 05-14-2023).]
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Intel
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MAY 14, 12:23 PM
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Well I sorted it out.
Turned out the ignition was WAY off!! 
I really dont know how this can happen because just before I put the car in storage I drove a pretty long trip along the coast, fueled it up, and into the garage, the timing was perfect back then.
A year before that I swapped the old rusty original style dist for a newer style, because the pickup coil was bad and the shaft had some slop.
When I installed the new dist I went by the book, cylinder 1 at TDC, Big white timing mark at zero. Rotor pointing at Pole 1 (roughly 4 a clock or at the right dist-cap bolt). Everything lined up like in the drawings I've seen here. Marked old dist and rotor position took photos.
Swaped it out, put new in exactly as old one.
Set the timing to 12 degrees with ALDL a+b shorted, runs like a champ.
How can it be this off after storage? I've had the battery off the car the whole time so the ECM is reset.
Now I had to move all my wires 2 poles counter clockwise to get in the ballpark where something started to ignite (got a backfire so loud the neighbors thought the hunting season was on). After a little playing around (with the ALDL shorted) I got it at 12 degrees. Runs great now.
I got a much better garage this month, much closer, without critters and I have lights and power. Here's my precious getting a quick wash today. First time rolling since 2017.
 [This message has been edited by Intel (edited 05-14-2023).]
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Patrick
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MAY 14, 05:07 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Intel:
Turned out the ignition was WAY off!!
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Well yeah, ignition timing is critical... but no one's going to mention that when they read the following...
| quote | Originally posted by Intel:
...it ran fine when parked with new dist, plugs, wires, module (GM),
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Only four things will affect the ignition timing.
#1) the distributor body has spun, which affects the position of the distributor cap relative to the rotor
#2) the distributor body has moved up or down, which affects the position of the rotor relative to the distributor cap
#3) the timing chain is so loose that it jumped a sprocket or two (which of course would also affect camshaft timing)
#4) there are mischievous storage garage pysslings which like to mess with an engine's ignition timing
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Intel
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MAY 14, 05:27 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Patrick:
Only four things will affect the ignition timing.
#1) the distributor body has spun, which affects the position of the distributor cap relative to the rotor
#2) the distributor body has moved up or down, which affects the position of the rotor relative to the distributor cap
#3) the timing chain is so loose that it jumped a sprocket or two (which of course would also affect camshaft timing)
#4) there are mischievous storage garage pysslings which like to mess with an engine's ignition timing |
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The spun dist could be possible, but then it can't move that far. It would have torn the wires going to the ign module. I'm always going over the bolts when I've wrenched on it but it's possible I forgot to tighten it when I set the timing.
The car only have 24000 miles so the chain shouldn't be stretched but you never know. I have a fairly new steel impeller water pump on it and I'm not going to rip it off to have a look at the chain. What ever happens, happens.
I'm starting to lean towards the pysslings... 😂[This message has been edited by Intel (edited 05-14-2023).]
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