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| Completely new fuel injection system computer? (Page 2/8) |
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Neils88
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DEC 21, 09:43 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
I'm so excited right now... seriously, it's almost like the feeling you get when you're about ready to "seal the deal" for the first time with a new girl you've been dating.
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| quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
Or, am I confused? When you say it doesn't control timing, are you saying that I cannot use my factory distributor / ignition control module?
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...this was the moment when you were about to "seal the deal"....and then the girlfriends parents unexpectedly came home.... 
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fieroguru
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DEC 21, 09:55 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
In short, I no longer have to mess with, or worry about the ECM...
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That is potentially a very expensive assumption. Your current issues with your combo might not be ecm related, if that is the case, then the new ecm will just be wasted $. If this self-tuning one can't auto correct for your combo, you are in a worse position than going with something you can tune/tweak.
Your camshaft is quite large and is recommended for cruise RPM in the 2600-3200 range and a minimum RPM of 1800. The camshaft has 4 degrees of overlap at .050 lift and that alone might cause some challenges. Overlap will cause an unstable idle and the opportunity for some lean surging at light throttle. Unless you have done the Dawg mod or are running a non-stock upper intake, you are likely killing the performance of the camshaft. These types of potential issues won't be fixed with an ecm change.
| quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
EDIT: Or, am I confused? When you say it doesn't control timing, are you saying that I cannot use my factory distributor / ignition control module?
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They say it doesn't control timing. If they allow you to use the stock EFI distributor, then they likely only have an RPM based timing, not Load & RPM based and you probably can't change the timing values.
Your best bet is to call them and see what it does, how it works, and if it works with the Fiero distributor.
When trying to tune a large camshaft, most of the tweaks for drivability are on the timing side... so you will want the most resolution possible on the timing side.
If you want to start working to get your current combo to run better, block off/remove the EGR (not needed with the overlap of your camshaft), pop out the cap for the throttle stop screw and adjust the base idle rpm with the IAC bottomed out to 50 RPM less than your desired idle speed. This adjustment will help limit IAC idle control and let timing do most of it. Then start logging the data to see what is going on and either start doing your own tuning or send the logged data to a tuning vendor for a tweak in the right direction. It might take 3 or 4 iterations, but each one will make the car run better.
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82-T/A [At Work]
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DEC 21, 10:02 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by trotterlg:
You will be disappointed with your results. Larry |
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If it runs well with no issues, and tunes itself, why would I be dissapointed? I'm only expecting low 15s in the quarter kind of performance. I would be pleased with high 14s, but I just want it to run well.
| quote | Originally posted by Neils88:
...this was the moment when you were about to "seal the deal"....and then the girlfriends parents unexpectedly came home.... |
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Hahah... I know... damn. There's still hope though... it looks like they have a newer version that does support timing. I'm just not sure how to do the wiring from an ignition control module, to what the distributor is providing.
But then again, I'm not even sure if the Fiero's timing is even controlled by the computer. I mean... it's a distributor... not a DIS...
When I look at this diagram:
I see there are four wires I need to worry about (the 4-pronged plug). That is the part that originally connects to the ECM. I see a reference, and a reference low. I'm assuming that "reference" means the engine location... if that's the case, I should be able to provide that to the new ECM?
The third wire is simply a by-pass to disable timing advance so I can set the distributor...
and then the fourth wire... is that to initiate some timing advance? Maybe the Fiero does have full ESC or something.
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trotterlg
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DEC 21, 10:42 PM
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As P.T. Barnum said, their is a .... .... every minute and two to take him. Take it from an old guy, you will be sorry. Larry
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82-T/A [At Work]
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DEC 21, 10:57 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by fieroguru:They say it doesn't control timing. If they allow you to use the stock EFI distributor, then they likely only have an RPM based timing, not Load & RPM based and you probably can't change the timing values.
Your best bet is to call them and see what it does, how it works, and if it works with the Fiero distributor. |
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Yeah, with the "2.0" version, it does control timing... so when I pick apart the paragraph:
| quote | | "Ignition system – In order for your EZ-EFI® to control ignition timing (optional) on a traditional, single coil, distributor-equipped engine, it must have a crank reference signal at TDC from either a crank trigger or a “locked out” distributor with an integrated pickup. A capacitive discharge (CD)-style ignition box is also required for the EZ-EFI® to control timing. The CD ignition box will receive the ECU’s ignition output signal and fire the coil." |
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I know the Fiero's ignition control module does provide a reference signal... both normal and low. But as you say... it sounds like it's strictly based on RPM.
I'm not exactly sure what a "capacitive discharge ignition box" is either... I know the ignition coil is a capacitor... so maybe that's what they're referring to.
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Blacktree
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DEC 21, 11:05 PM
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Yes, the Fiero ECM does adjust the ignition timing. The Fiero distributer can't run as a stand-alone unit. It needs external control (i.e. from the ECM).
If you want something that controls fuel and spark, and has self-tuning capability, you may want to look into the MegaSquirt stuff, for example this one: http://www.diyautotune.com/...mbled-kit-p-389.html
Edit to add: There's also a daughter-board available for the 7730 ECM that gives it self-tuning capability, and the 7165 ECM as well. See this thread for details: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/128614.html[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 12-21-2013).]
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82-T/A [At Work]
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DEC 22, 08:08 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by Blacktree:
Yes, the Fiero ECM does adjust the ignition timing. The Fiero distributer can't run as a stand-alone unit. It needs external control (i.e. from the ECM).
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Thanks Blacktree, the MegaSquirt looks awesome... but I notice they don't sell what "we" need pre-assembled... looks like I have to soldier all the joints! Ouch.
The second one looks interesting, I'm looking at that now.
Quick question though... would an MSD 6AL be able to control my timing for me? Let's say I went with the FAST system... would I be able to use the 6AL and have that control my timing? (and then of course, pass the reference signal back to the FAST ecm). Or does the 6AL only provide multiple spark discharge and nothing more / nothing less?
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82-T/A [At Work]
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DEC 22, 09:36 AM
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Ok, I've been reading a bit more on it all morning, and this is what I've come up with...
The "version 2.0" of the system (which is $1,200) will work with the OEM distributor, but it requires the use of a capacitive discharge system. Now, I know that an MSD 6AL is capacitive discharge, but I'm not sure if the stock ignition system is???
If it isn't then I have to put a 6AL inline...
Another issue I identified (in reading some posts) is that I lose fuel evap purge functionality because I guess that is controlled by the stock ECM.
Couple of positive things though... the 2.0 kit converts the system to sequential port fuel injection (SFI), rather than MPFI that we have which is "batch fire"... IE: left / right, left / right.[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 12-22-2013).]
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Blacktree
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DEC 22, 09:42 AM
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As far as I know, the MSD 6 series units don't adjust spark timing. So that can't be run as a stand-alone unit, either.
That said, if you're dead-set on using that FAST controller, you could probably get a vacuum-advance distributer from an old S10 pickup or something to run the ignition system.
Edit to add:
The Fiero evap canister is vacuum controlled. Swapping ECMs shouldn't affect its operation.
Also, FYI converting to sequential injection will require rewiring the injector circuitry. The Fiero fuel injection system is wired similar to a TBI system. It has two injector circuits, just like a TBI system. But each circuit has 3 injectors wired in parallel. You'll need to separate that into 6 circuits to use SFI.[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 12-22-2013).]
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82-T/A [At Work]
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DEC 22, 10:39 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by Blacktree:
As far as I know, the MSD 6 series units don't adjust spark timing. So that can't be run as a stand-alone unit, either.
That said, if you're dead-set on using that FAST controller, you could probably get a vacuum-advance distributer from an old S10 pickup or something to run the ignition system.
Edit to add:
The Fiero evap canister is vacuum controlled. Swapping ECMs shouldn't affect its operation.
Also, FYI converting to sequential injection will require rewiring the injector circuitry. The Fiero fuel injection system is wired similar to a TBI system. It has two injector circuits, just like a TBI system. But each circuit has 3 injectors wired in parallel. You'll need to separate that into 6 circuits to use SFI.
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Thanks Blacktree, but does the evap canister get it's vacuum from the vacuum controller that sits in front of the motor on the passenger side?
As far as the injector wiring, the FAST system comes complete with it's own harness. That is the part that is still really enticing me... that I basically get a whole new wiring harness and it comes pre-wired to replace everything that I already have, with the factory plug harnesses too. Essentially, with the exception of the distributor, I can basically make the engine look 100% stock.
I guess it eliminates the EGR though since it no longer needs it, but I wonder what effect it will have on my cruise control? That's vacuum controlled too I think, so it should just work?
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