F23 vs HTOB 282 (Page 2/3)
thesameguy MAY 31, 11:14 AM
Rattle is a common problem with the F40.. it's usually a minor annoyance but when the transmission is a few inches from your ears it's probably worse.

The F23 isn't even a slam dunk. A two or three year bell housing from a crappy car twenty years ago... Ugh. In my searching for both HTOB 282 and 2.2l F23, availability is remarkably similar.

Funny what ends up ruining the practicality of old cars....
Raydar MAY 31, 11:08 PM
I'm a bit late to this party, but I can offer my opinons.
I own an "HTOB Getrag" sometimes (incorrectly) called a "Beretta Getrag". In reality it's really a New Venture T-550.
It's essentially identical to a 282, except that it has a hydraulic release bearing, and a sturdier differential.
Mine shifts... poorly, to be polite about it. The "select" function (left to right) is a real pain.
But it has endured a good deal of abuse at the hand of my 4.9, and has held up remarkably well. (I still try to not shock-load it, however.) It also has the EP limited slip. I'm not sure how much that has helped the reliability.
Of course, the gearing is not ideal, but it's still a complete riot to drive. I'd do a 3.09 F40, but I don't really have the skills, or that much disposable income.

OTOH, I have an F23 that is going to be bolted to an LQ1, in the not-too-distant future.
Admittedly, the gearing is not ideal, but I'm hoping that the high revving nature of the LQ1 will make it a bit more palatable.
I've thought about doing the bellhousing swap with the "economy" F23, but it just doesn't seem worth the trouble.
I've read several of the write-ups, and there are still a bunch of unanswered questions. And I don't feel like reinventing the wheel, yet again.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 05-31-2021).]

pmbrunelle MAY 31, 11:37 PM

quote
Originally posted by cam-a-lot: the Getrag 282 has reached the end of its' shelf life, and more and more people will be breaking these transmissions with no replacement in sight...



The more sustainable solution to worn-out transmissions is to rebuild them, not to replace them with less worn (but still worn-out) transmissions from the junkyard.

If you have a 282, you can hoard a bunch by buying worn ones from Fiero owners who want to replace rather than rebuild. From a collection of old parts (and a sprinkling of new bearings/seals), often a good trans can be assembled... and then you have spare parts.

If people don't want to tear into the gearboxes, they're going to be stuck looking at 10-15 year old (prime age for junkyards) used parts... and it's a non-stop treadmill. As new replaces old, you have to keep moving to the newest transmission architecture.

That said, the treadmill will stop as new cars rarely have standard transmissions; eventually junkyards will have few cars with suitable donor transmissions.
Will JUN 01, 11:14 AM

quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:

The shift quality for the 282 is really bad,




quote
Originally posted by Raydar:

Mine shifts... poorly, to be polite about it.



I've never characterized the 282 as having bad shift quality... it's no Mjata or S2000, but it's top shelf for a cable operated shifter.

Are you using melted butter for a lubricant? How about trying the actual synchromesh fluid? The difference between ATF and synchromesh is night and day in terms of shift speed and effort.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 06-01-2021).]

Will JUN 01, 11:16 AM

quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

The more sustainable solution to worn-out transmissions is to rebuild them, not to replace them with less worn (but still worn-out) transmissions from the junkyard.

If you have a 282, you can hoard a bunch by buying worn ones from Fiero owners who want to replace rather than rebuild. From a collection of old parts (and a sprinkling of new bearings/seals), often a good trans can be assembled... and then you have spare parts.

If people don't want to tear into the gearboxes, they're going to be stuck looking at 10-15 year old (prime age for junkyards) used parts... and it's a non-stop treadmill. As new replaces old, you have to keep moving to the newest transmission architecture.

That said, the treadmill will stop as new cars rarely have standard transmissions; eventually junkyards will have few cars with suitable donor transmissions.



The 282 is fairly difficult to take apart and requires a press. The F23 is easier, not requiring a press, but still not a no-brainer. The factory assembly pallets help with both of these.
The F40 *IS* a no-brainer to take apart.
thesameguy JUN 01, 12:25 PM

quote
Originally posted by Will:
I've never characterized the 282 as having bad shift quality... it's no Mjata or S2000, but it's top shelf for a cable operated shifter.



Well, my other cable-shifted transmissions have been Honda (Prelude, Accord), Saab (F40), and Ford (MTX IV, MTX75). The Prelude was in my mind the best of the bunch - you wouldn't even know it was a cable shift without looking. The MTX IV shifted very similarly to the 282. Like Oobleck... easy when shfted slowly, but the faster you go the worse it gets. I joke.... The 282 is hardly unusable, but it's definitely a more conscious effort.


quote

Are you using melted butter for a lubricant? How about trying the actual synchromesh fluid? The difference between ATF and synchromesh is night and day in terms of shift speed and effort.



I used whatever the car came to me with, then switched out for GM Synchromesh. I have no idea what was in there before, what I was comparing against. But I figured with two drain/refills it was fully Synchromesh'd and was as good as it was gonna be. I didn't find there to be a huge improvement there... it was better, but not good.

I'm *totally* willing to keep going with the 282 - I'm fine with the Fiero being a bit of a time piece with a clumsy shifter and a bit of a boat anchor in the back. It's still super fun to drive and great to look at. But I do like to entertain options. If there was a "give a guy $2k and have a better transmission" option I'd pull the trigger, and that's what I was hoping to learn about here.
Raydar JUN 01, 12:59 PM

quote
Originally posted by Will:


I've never characterized the 282 as having bad shift quality... it's no Mjata or S2000, but it's top shelf for a cable operated shifter.

Are you using melted butter for a lubricant? How about trying the actual synchromesh fluid? The difference between ATF and synchromesh is night and day in terms of shift speed and effort.



I'm not claiming that my T-550 is "typical". I've had three other Getrags in several other cars that shifted better. Even the one that was ready to frag itself (which it eventually did.)
This one has had a steady diet of synchromesh, as long as it's been in the car. Was rebuilt, just before that.
I have no trouble getting it into any gear. None at all. It's the side-to-side (select) action that is stiff. The linkage is well lubricated, and it has a relatively new Rodney select cable. Even replaced that, once. It almost feels like they "doubled up" on the springs that pull the select mechanism back to center.
I have the "medium" length shift handle. Had a shorter (84) handle on it. That was much worse. OTOH, the stock 88 handle looks like a club. Didn't much feel like using that one.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 06-01-2021).]

thesameguy JUN 02, 06:40 PM
Well, the search for a 30 year old GM FWD manual transmission goes about as well as you'd think it would... poorly. I thought finding 4 cyl Ford T5s was hard. NOPE.

Watching rwdplz's *delightful* F23 youtube video, I'm thinking as much as it's gonna hurt financially maybe going hybrid F23 ain't so bad.

Given I can find a 2.2l OHV F23 and a Cobalt XFE (FY1) transmission, joining them together in holy matrimony is "only" splitting the case, reshimming the diff using tool J-44388, replacing the diff side bearings, and putting it back together. And hoping WCF can deliver the brackets & cables.

I'm thinking this is a $2200 problem... $1200-ish to WCF, $800ish in two F23s, and $200-ish in J-44388. I don't *think* I need the assembly pallet for this..

I guess one thing I am unclear on is whether the WCF brackets mount to the bell housing or the main gear case ... if the latter, does using the later XFE/FY1 gear case blow that up?
Raydar JUN 02, 07:22 PM

quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:
... $200-ish in J-44388.




Unless I'm missing something, these things are all over ebay from ~$14 to ~$90. (Plus whatever shipping charges they decide to add on. The ones I've seen have not been bad.)


quote

I guess one thing I am unclear on is whether the WCF brackets mount to the bell housing or the main gear case ... if the latter, does using the later XFE/FY1 gear case blow that up?




I'll likely be buying brackets - for whatever configuration I decide to go with - from Roger Thelin or Fiero Rog. Unless someone can convince me that that would be a bad idea, and explain why. I'm looking forward to seeing what you end up with. Please take lots of pics.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 06-02-2021).]

thesameguy JUN 02, 09:08 PM
Yeah, I've seen that tool at those prices - I'm leaving myself room in case I need others (like the pallet) or, you know, generally ebay flakiness. A quick search shows you could tool up for full F23 shenanigans for a couple hundred bucks. It's stupid for me to have a collection of such tools, but hey, I've got weirder specialized crap in the garage.

My understanding was that Thelin's adapters were only useful if combined with an Ecotec - the lateral positioning is wrong for the 60*V6? I think maybe I also read that how or where they attach doesn't work on the 2.2 bell housing. :/

I'm gonna give my 282 search a few more days but then verify one more time with WCF what timelines are. I saw cam-a-lot ordered and received his F23 stuff from them pretty quickly, so I'm hopeful.