Exploded Valve Lifter: What kind of top end engine damage can I expect and check for? (Page 2/4)
skywurz FEB 06, 01:52 PM
Id pull the Intake and valve covers to see the valve train and not bother ordering anything until it is apart and you can see whats what. Those felpro blue gaskets are really nice. id also cut apart the oil filter and see what it has. if the oil filter is empty these metal bits did not just happen.
Joseph Upson FEB 07, 02:41 PM
Doesn't sound like a lifter problem to me. I'd expect a failure to the extent proposed to result in a misfire that would be unresponsive to any chemical treatment. It would probably damage the camshaft lobe to some extent also. I've ruined a Fiero V6 aftermarket camshaft before while experimenting and not recognizing that I had a coil bind condition. The motor never made a sound, it gradually got weaker as the cam lobes wore down and fuel economy plummeted over the course of 60 miles after install, until it began to skip. The oil looked like liquid glitter and on top of that experiment, I had also plugged the oil bypass, an idea I got from Chevy HP magazine, and the metal bits plugged the oil filter to the point where the motor would barely to not idle as a result of the pumping load.

I suspect your top engine noise is a damaged piston, perhaps collapsed skirt, broken ring land, piston pin bore irregularity. That type of failure makes a lot of noise up top. I can't imagine a disintegrated lifter is performing any amount of work on a pushrod to make much if any noise.
reinhart FEB 13, 07:48 PM
Well. Got the intake out today.

It was what I expected but then a surprise.

Yes when I pulled off the front valve cover, on Cylinder 6, I could move the rocker assembly around even to the point where the pushrod wasn't in line. Yup that was the problem.



But then I continued tearing the lower intake out, and when it was removed, I noticed 3 of the valve lifters were coming apart. Cyl 6 Exh, Cyl 4 Exh, Cyl 2 Intake.

Cyl 6, the lifter rod was jammed into the bore of the lifter assembly. The other two lifters, the rods were slid off to the side but still in the lifter correctly. Surprisingly the clip on Cyl 6 had not come out, but it was Cyl 4's clip that I had found in the oil pan. There was also another part of the clip I found in the intake valley.

[This message has been edited by reinhart (edited 02-13-2022).]

reinhart FEB 13, 07:51 PM
So I'm confused as to what caused three lifters to start coming apart. If it had been just the one I wouldn't have given it much thought.

The engine is original....Did GM give me a bad batch of lifters from the factory?

Why are all 3 failing lifters on the front bank?

How long have the three lifters been off kelter before Cyl 6 got jammed in there alerting me with the tapping noise that suddenly appeared?
reinhart FEB 13, 08:08 PM
Ok so now what? I inspected the block's lifter holes and they don't appeared damaged nor do they seem enlarged at all when I put a good lifter in the bore.

The camshaft doesn't look like there's been any wear from just peering down where I can see it. What should I look for with the camshaft?


The lifters do not appear to have any major scoring on the bottom where they would contact the camshaft.



Here's some pictures of the components:








The push rods and rockers seem fine to me. I was able to blow air through the push rods without much effort so they aren't clogged up inside.

So is it as simple as just buy 12 new lifters and some gaskets and call it a day? Or....?

[This message has been edited by reinhart (edited 02-13-2022).]

theogre FEB 13, 09:32 PM
Engine hot and valves adjusted right @ minimum, the lifter center never hits the clip because stay a little compressed even when unloaded by cam.
IOW Lifters "blew the tops" is often a sign had too much clearance at the rockers...

Over time rockers, balls, and more wear and loosen the parts then lifter center slams the clip and clip fails.
That even if the rocker nuts and studs never loosen.

And assuming all had plenty of oil push/pumped thru the rods to the top.
Lifters control oil flow to the top. Not the oil pump. Crap oil because people didn't change oil, iffy oil pump, etc can stave the lifters and little or no 1, several, to all rockers. Causing more wear up top.

So is no shock to many when see above pics.

Now take 1 "Ok" lifter. Roll it to make sure sides are ok.
Then Put on side and roll against cam face of others lifters.
Bowl wear of 1 to all faces often means cam is worn too and putting new filters on worn cam will fail.

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 02-13-2022).]

reinhart FEB 14, 03:33 AM

quote
Originally posted by theogre:

Engine hot and valves adjusted right @ minimum, the lifter center never hits the clip because stay a little compressed even when unloaded by cam.
IOW Lifters "blew the tops" is often a sign had too much clearance at the rockers...

Over time rockers, balls, and more wear and loosen the parts then lifter center slams the clip and clip fails.
That even if the rocker nuts and studs never loosen.

And assuming all had plenty of oil push/pumped thru the rods to the top.
Lifters control oil flow to the top. Not the oil pump. Crap oil because people didn't change oil, iffy oil pump, etc can stave the lifters and little or no 1, several, to all rockers. Causing more wear up top.

So is no shock to many when see above pics.

Now take 1 "Ok" lifter. Roll it to make sure sides are ok.
Then Put on side and roll against cam face of others lifters.
Bowl wear of 1 to all faces often means cam is worn too and putting new filters on worn cam will fail.




Thanks Ogre. Any thoughts on why the failure would be on one bank only while the other looks perfect?

"putting new filters on worn cam will fail."

What do you mean by this? Fail in what way?

I did the test you suggested of rolling one of the lifter sides on the bottom of the lifters and looks flat to me.

Do you agree I just need to change the lifters out and that's it or anything else needs replacement?

[This message has been edited by reinhart (edited 02-14-2022).]

eti engineer FEB 14, 09:37 AM
I would make sure to use high zinc oil if you install new lifters only. This will help in making sure you don't wipe the camshaft with the new lifters. Like Ogre said, it is not a good practice to put only new lifters in, but I have done this on other vehicles and had no issues. When I have had a noisy or collapsed lifter, I have replaced only that lifter and have never had a camshaft fail. I think it has to do with the fact that when I did it, I treated the engine like a freshly rebuilt engine. Put in a new filter and high zinc oil and break it in like a new engine. Go easy on the first 500 miles. Then drain the oil, change the filter and put new high-zinc oil in the vehicle for another 500 miles. You can drive it a little harder during this second phase of break-in, but no sustained highway speeds. Then after this second oil and filter change, use whatever oil you want. For older engines, I use a blend of synthetic and regular 5W-30 oil. I am in the process of breaking in a fresh rebuild right now. I am in the second stage. So far, so good. In your case, after you put the new lifters in, make sure you adjust the valves per manufacturer's recommendations.

quote
Originally posted by reinhart:


Thanks Ogre. Any thoughts on why the failure would be on one bank only while the other looks perfect?

"putting new filters on worn cam will fail."

What do you mean by this? Fail in what way?

I did the test you suggested of rolling one of the lifter sides on the bottom of the lifters and looks flat to me.

Do you agree I just need to change the lifters out and that's it or anything else needs replacement?
reinhart FEB 14, 10:22 AM

quote
Originally posted by eti engineer:

I would make sure to use high zinc oil if you install new lifters only. This will help in making sure you don't wipe the camshaft with the new lifters. Like Ogre said, it is not a good practice to put only new lifters in, but I have done this on other vehicles and had no issues. When I have had a noisy or collapsed lifter, I have replaced only that lifter and have never had a camshaft fail. I think it has to do with the fact that when I did it, I treated the engine like a freshly rebuilt engine. Put in a new filter and high zinc oil and break it in like a new engine. Go easy on the first 500 miles. Then drain the oil, change the filter and put new high-zinc oil in the vehicle for another 500 miles. You can drive it a little harder during this second phase of break-in, but no sustained highway speeds. Then after this second oil and filter change, use whatever oil you want. For older engines, I use a blend of synthetic and regular 5W-30 oil. I am in the process of breaking in a fresh rebuild right now. I am in the second stage. So far, so good. In your case, after you put the new lifters in, make sure you adjust the valves per manufacturer's recommendations.



What brand of oil has high zinc? I've never noticed any stating they have it. Alternatively I do remember hearing something about being able to add a zinc additive. Any recommendations on high zinc oil brands or additives?

Also I'm curious what the zinc actually does differently as far as engine wear. Any info on that?
reinhart FEB 14, 10:24 AM
BTW, Put in an order for 12 new lifters and 12 pushrods. The rods were just $20 shipped so figured I'd grab those too. The old ones seem ok but the discolored wear areas might have made those sections slightly thinner I figured so might as well swap them out.