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| Completely new fuel injection system computer? (Page 3/8) |
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Blacktree
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DEC 22, 11:15 AM
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I think the vacuum controller you mentioned is the EGR solenoid. It doesn't control the evap canister. The vacuum signal for the evap canister comes straight from the throttle body.
I think the comment about evap canister operation was regarding engines with electronically controlled evap canisters. Because nowadays, that's the norm. The FAST unit probably doesn't have programming for that.
Regarding the EGR, you could probably go old-skool with a vacuum operated unit... or just delete it.
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82-T/A [At Work]
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DEC 22, 11:48 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by Blacktree:
I think the vacuum controller you mentioned is the EGR solenoid. It doesn't control the evap canister. The vacuum signal for the evap canister comes straight from the throttle body.
I think the comment about evap canister operation was regarding engines with electronically controlled evap canisters. Because nowadays, that's the norm. The FAST unit probably doesn't have programming for that.
Regarding the EGR, you could probably go old-skool with a vacuum operated unit... or just delete it. |
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Thanks BlackTree, I really appreciate the back and forth, this is helping me out immensely.
Our EGR systems in the Fiero are vacuum controlled, aren't they? So I guess I could really just leave it like it is???
Edit, oh wait, the vacuum regulator is what signals the EGR to open. Ok... makes sense. I guess to make it old-school vacuum would simply be to install some sort of vacuum sensor? At what point would the EGR need to open?[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 12-22-2013).]
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dobey
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DEC 22, 12:39 PM
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One thing nobody has mentioned yet, is that almost all the aftermarket fuel injection control systems are only DOT approved for off-road (aka track) use. Depending on your location, and what sort of testing has to be done on your car there, it may or may not be easy to get away with using it on a registered road vehicle. Yeah, I know you might say "but we don't have emissions testing here, blah blah" but it doesn't change the fact that it would be illegal, or that it's worth pointing out that they are only approved for off-road use.
Also, as I'm sure your already aware, aftermarket engine management systems can be quite pricey, especially on systems that have more modern features, like support for coil-per-plug DIS, CAN, and such. If you're not doing a fairly significant engine swap, one has to consider if it's worth $1200-2500 for an aftermarket ECM to run a stock engine in a Fiero. The 7730 swap is good, because it's cheap, relatively easy, and allows use of many basic features on the newer engines, without a lot of expensive additional equipment. An aftermaerket system can get quite pricey very quickly, especially when you have to get an aftermarket distributor, ignition system, and extra sensors.
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Doober
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DEC 22, 02:52 PM
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www.dynamicefi.com
I already asked Bob about it on thirdgen.org, and he said the original EBL in port mode or the P4 EBL will run the engine no problem. The EBL replaces part of the stock ecm (the daughterboard) and adds a lot of tuning capability. You can datalog off sensors (including adding fuel pressure, oil temp, etc.), add boost, n2o, shift light, and it also adds built in flash capability (tune it via laptop in the car). It learns off wideband or narrowband, and the best part is you don't have to rewire everything, just runs off the stock harness. For the EBL and the wideband kit (TT-1) I believe you're around $650-750 from those guys. I'm running it on a 383 with Vortec heads, a mild cam, 454 throttle body and a carbed intake, 20,000 miles so far 
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Blacktree
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DEC 22, 04:26 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
Edit, oh wait, the vacuum regulator is what signals the EGR to open. Ok... makes sense. I guess to make it old-school vacuum would simply be to install some sort of vacuum sensor? At what point would the EGR need to open?
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Yeah, the Fiero V6 EGR is a hybrid electronic/vacuum unit. It's a vacuum operated EGR valve with a computer controlled vacuum solenoid piggybacked onto it. I would think that one could ditch the computer control and run it on ported vacuum. But I haven't actually done that, so am not sure how well it would work. But FYI that's how the EGR on the Duke is setup; no computer control, just ported vacuum.
Unfortunately, I don't know a whole lot about EGR valves, cuz I usually delete them. 
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82-T/A [At Work]
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DEC 22, 05:23 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by dobey:
One thing nobody has mentioned yet, is that almost all the aftermarket fuel injection control systems are only DOT approved for off-road (aka track) use. Depending on your location, and what sort of testing has to be done on your car there, it may or may not be easy to get away with using it on a registered road vehicle. Yeah, I know you might say "but we don't have emissions testing here, blah blah" but it doesn't change the fact that it would be illegal, or that it's worth pointing out that they are only approved for off-road use.
Also, as I'm sure your already aware, aftermarket engine management systems can be quite pricey, especially on systems that have more modern features, like support for coil-per-plug DIS, CAN, and such. If you're not doing a fairly significant engine swap, one has to consider if it's worth $1200-2500 for an aftermarket ECM to run a stock engine in a Fiero. The 7730 swap is good, because it's cheap, relatively easy, and allows use of many basic features on the newer engines, without a lot of expensive additional equipment. An aftermaerket system can get quite pricey very quickly, especially when you have to get an aftermarket distributor, ignition system, and extra sensors. |
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This I can answer very easily.
In Florida, there is no emissions testing, but beyond that... I'm only concerned with making sure that it meets or exceeds the emissions standards that the factory vehicle had. I intend to keep a catalytic converter on there, and to be honest, every review I've read suggests the emissions are better. I'd like to keep my EGR too.
As for the cost... I have a lot of respect for the 7730... but I've got to be honest... the last thing I want to do is data-logging, updating, modifying. There was a time where I was ok with that, but I really just want a good, reliable solution. My Fiero is in really good shape... no rust, and no damage. But the wiring is at best ~27 years old now. At this point, it's beyond what I would reasonably consider reliable... even in the slightest. If I can install this kit in my car and have it manage my computer in such a way that I'll get 99% of the maximum engine efficiency that I would otherwise be getting from piecing together and sourcing parts for a 7730 and Metasploit ECM, etc... I will be a happy, happy camper. My Fiero has been on the back burner for the last decade. I've driven it maybe 3 times since 2000. A couple of years ago, I started a complete tear-down and restoration: http://www.pontiacperforman...et/car87FieroSE.html I got maybe 50% through the car before I relocated for a job. I want to get this thing together, and I want to have fun with it. The best part about it, is that it comes with all new wiring. If I do this right, I'll get self-tuning capability with excellent drivability.
The only "snag" I've got right now is making a decision on which way to go for ignition control. The Gen 1 system from 2009 costs ~$850 from most retailers which comes with the ECM, a whole new harness, and etc. The new one gives me everything Gen 1 does, but also converts to Sequential Port Fuel Injection, and allows control of a distributor. That one is $1,200 bucks.
My engine by no means is an Olds 455 big block, but it's also not a stock Fiero motor either. It's a 3.2 liter w/ H272 cam and a few other odds and ends.
| quote | Originally posted by Doober:
www.dynamicefi.com
I already asked Bob about it on thirdgen.org, and he said the original EBL in port mode or the P4 EBL will run the engine no problem. The EBL replaces part of the stock ecm (the daughterboard) and adds a lot of tuning capability. You can datalog off sensors (including adding fuel pressure, oil temp, etc.), add boost, n2o, shift light, and it also adds built in flash capability (tune it via laptop in the car). It learns off wideband or narrowband, and the best part is you don't have to rewire everything, just runs off the stock harness. For the EBL and the wideband kit (TT-1) I believe you're around $650-750 from those guys. I'm running it on a 383 with Vortec heads, a mild cam, 454 throttle body and a carbed intake, 20,000 miles so far |
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Thanks Doober, it looks like a really cool setup, I'm just not sure I want to re-use the old harness anymore.[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 12-22-2013).]
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dobey
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DEC 22, 11:15 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
…but I've got to be honest... the last thing I want to do is data-logging, updating, modifying.
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What exactly about the aftermarket ECMs makes you think you won't have to do these things? Unless you get the correct tune flashed in the first time, you're going to have to see what's going on, modify the tune, and flash the ECM again. This is true, regardless of whether you use a 7730 or an aftermarket system. The only systems I've seen that do auto-learn and don't require any programming at all, are the new systems from MSD/Accel/etc… for the LSx engines, that start around $2500.
The 7730 might actually be easier in that respect, because you can just get a tune from DarthFiero by telling him you have a 3.2 with the H272 cam, for whatever he charges to do that. You of course also have the option of tuning yourself. But if you don't want to spend the time doing it, then you're going to pay someone to do it, and for an aftermarket system, you're going to have to find someone near you who knows how to tune the system in question, and they're going to charge quite a bit, including dyno time.
EDIT: And I'm not trying to convince you to go with the 7730 or not. I was just providing some more information.[This message has been edited by dobey (edited 12-22-2013).]
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woodyhere
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DEC 22, 11:44 PM
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The FAST 2.0 is the latest design for self learn from FAST. The distributor timing and advance is controlled. Your stock distributor will work just fine. There is a simple feature to add vacuum advance curves without a vacuum advance distributor. This means it reads engine load not just rpm. It is a wide band sensor which means it can do a better job than a narrow band stock set up. Why would anyone think this will make the engine run "dirty" ? It will get you up and running quickly. When you learn more, you can go in and make changes to the programming with the hand help controller. You can actually make a lot of changes if you want. Big issue is you don't have to. You can program a valet setting so the car can't be abused by a parking attendant. Just a simple change on the hand held. It can save several programs. The best thing to do is go on line and look at the set up info supplied by FAST. Look at installation videos - there are plenty. There are a lot of opinions being expressed. You need to check facts yourself. It is going to be expensive but has a good warrantee. I have done a lot of research because I was burned on a Holley TBI. I didn't want another expensive lesson. My FAST EZ 2.0 is on back order. It's for roller cammed 427. They can't build them fast enough to fill the demand. That should tell you something. I hope you do your own research and trust yourself to make a decision that suits you. I like the Mega Squirt too but it isn't quite as user friendly. My son would argue that point with me though.
Woody ------------------
woodys 427
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garage monster
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DEC 23, 12:27 AM
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My Fiero has a bored 383 in it. It was broken in on the Dyno at 320hp and 410 torque. I used a 650 CFM Edelbrock carb and with an early seventies block and heads I use regular gas. I had lot's of drivability issues and if parked for a short trip into a store or a long gas fill up it would be very hard to start apparently with excess heat in the carb causing fuel to boil over and flood the engine. More than a year ago I changed to the FAST TBI system. It works just like advertised. Now remember this is a throttle body system that replaces the carb so somewhat simpler. I was skeptical but installed it as directed, made the entries asked for in the handheld controller such as number of cylinders, cubic inches, desired idle, etc. It started right up and I love it. When I have had questions there support people seem to know their stuff.
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82-T/A [At Work]
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DEC 23, 06:50 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by dobey:
What exactly about the aftermarket ECMs makes you think you won't have to do these things?
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Because that is exactly it... it does it all for me. It's a self-learning system meant to optimize the air/fuel ratio. I can change these things slightly, but it tries to keep air/fuel at 14 in idle, 13.9 in normal driving, and 13.8 at WOT, based on what I've read, and the experiences I've read from others.
I can modify my settings using the hand-held... but it does 99% of the learning for me.
I'd love to go with the 7730, but I don't want to have to build my own harness and do a bunch of custom stuff. I'm not averse to the work, I just don't want to have something that I have to fiddle with. With kids, a project house, work, etc... I find myself with less and less time. I'm much more willing to spend the extra $500 dollars to have someone do everything for me, knowing it'll work well.
| quote | Originally posted by woodyhere:
The FAST 2.0 is the latest design for self learn from FAST. The distributor timing and advance is controlled. Your stock distributor will work just fine. There is a simple feature to add vacuum advance curves without a vacuum advance distributor. This means it reads engine load not just rpm. It is a wide band sensor which means it can do a better job than a narrow band stock set up. Why would anyone think this will make the engine run "dirty" ? It will get you up and running quickly. When you learn more, you can go in and make changes to the programming with the hand help controller. You can actually make a lot of changes if you want. Big issue is you don't have to. You can program a valet setting so the car can't be abused by a parking attendant. Just a simple change on the hand held. It can save several programs. The best thing to do is go on line and look at the set up info supplied by FAST. Look at installation videos - there are plenty. There are a lot of opinions being expressed. You need to check facts yourself. It is going to be expensive but has a good warrantee. I have done a lot of research because I was burned on a Holley TBI. I didn't want another expensive lesson. My FAST EZ 2.0 is on back order. It's for roller cammed 427. They can't build them fast enough to fill the demand. That should tell you something. I hope you do your own research and trust yourself to make a decision that suits you. I like the Mega Squirt too but it isn't quite as user friendly. My son would argue that point with me though.
Woody
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Thanks Woody, I really appreciate the feedback. I'm really looking forward to it. I'm still just worried about being able to use the stock distributor. They offer a bunch of aftermarket distributors, but they're all for V8s. I have a couple of e-mails and posts in to FAST... so we'll see what they come back with. I'm hoping all that's required is that I need to use the MSD 6AL to convert the signal... (I think) so that it's readable to the newer ECM.
| quote | Originally posted by garage monster:
My Fiero has a bored 383 in it. It was broken in on the Dyno at 320hp and 410 torque. I used a 650 CFM Edelbrock carb and with an early seventies block and heads I use regular gas. I had lot's of drivability issues and if parked for a short trip into a store or a long gas fill up it would be very hard to start apparently with excess heat in the carb causing fuel to boil over and flood the engine. More than a year ago I changed to the FAST TBI system. It works just like advertised. Now remember this is a throttle body system that replaces the carb so somewhat simpler. I was skeptical but installed it as directed, made the entries asked for in the handheld controller such as number of cylinders, cubic inches, desired idle, etc. It started right up and I love it. When I have had questions there support people seem to know their stuff. |
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I'm glad to hear it... and if in the end, I'm not happy with it... I can always use the set-up on my 1969 Olds 455 big block.
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