R152a - A/C alternative fill... (Page 3/6)
Chris Eddy AUG 03, 12:04 PM
It amazes me that the EPA is green flagging R152a..
I was considering propane, just because I object.. but my mechanic (works on my cars, not my Fiero) relayed a story in (Texas?) where propane was illegally sold to shops in full cans with seals on them. When cars started to explode, blowing out glass and killing people, it took a while for them to piece together the story. Now, shops have to use an R134 detector to verify that what they bought in the can is what it says on the can.. at least legally.
So flammable gas in my A/C? No thanks.. and R152a is flammable? Something does not add up.
thesameguy AUG 03, 05:37 PM
Meh... R152a is only slightly more dangerous than R134a... group A2 vs. A1. Not something I'd worry about. Pure propane vs. an HC blend is a seriously different story.

Edit: You can read this if you want to - it's fairly brief and to the point, illustrates the differences between various refrigerants:

http://www.iifiir.org/userf...lassification_EN.pdf

[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 08-03-2016).]

fierofool AUG 04, 08:10 PM
Back in the early part of the century, there was an R12 replacement called Freezon. I don't remember the number designation of the stuff. A local garage was a distributor/converter and I had my 87 converted. It did very well, but when I eventually had the clutch replaced by RobsFieros in Tennessee, the system was drained. The local garage had gone out of business and I couldn't find the stuff anywhere so it was recharged with R12. Glad it was because when the Freezone was installed, I didn't know it had propane or butane in it. As the R12 became so expensive, it was again converted, and that was to the R134a.

I've had the pressure switches blow out of the 87 a year or so after I bought it and everything blew out on the catalytic converter. With the big boom and the cloud that came out the rear of the car, I thought it was on fire. I left the interstate for the grassy shoulder, pulled the parking brake and with the rear wheels in a full skid, bailed out just before it stopped. I was lucky that it was just the freon and oil cloud and that the converter didn't ignite the oil. So, the argument that something is 'just a little more flammable than' doesn't appeal to me. I prefer something that's 'just a little less flammable than'.
jscott1 AUG 04, 11:18 PM

quote
Originally posted by Mickey_Moose:


Been 75°F - 85°F since about the beginning of May or so in my neck of the woods - only the very odd time has it been below that during the day time. Sure maybe not Nevada hot during the summer, but I hate it when the igloo melts. lol

It is all what you are accustomed to.



I wish it would get that cold in the middle of the night here in Texas. When the daytime temps reach 99F and 100% humidity the Fieros get parked. None of my a/c systems are up to the challenge. New cars are marginal.
ericjon262 AUG 05, 03:22 AM

quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:

I've run R134a in my Fiero for years. Blows 34 deg F out the vents - verified by a thermometer. Why would I replace it?




when it comes to AC, I only care about the temperature change, I'm not saying you're skewing numbers, but 34F doesn't mean crap if it's only 55F outside.

again, I'm not saying you're trying to fool people, that's a feasible number, but more data is required for a true assessment of performance.
pHoOl AUG 07, 10:04 PM
Whats the average price of a 134 conversion? My original r12 just stopped working this year. Probably just a tad low
Darth Fiero AUG 09, 04:01 PM

quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:


when it comes to AC, I only care about the temperature change, I'm not saying you're skewing numbers, but 34F doesn't mean crap if it's only 55F outside.

again, I'm not saying you're trying to fool people, that's a feasible number, but more data is required for a true assessment of performance.



34F on an 85F day with HVAC on Max A/C, blower on Low and driving down the highway (no need to turn the blower up higher because it is already cold inside the car).

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 08-09-2016).]

Darth Fiero AUG 09, 04:17 PM

quote
Originally posted by pHoOl:

Whats the average price of a 134 conversion? My original r12 just stopped working this year. Probably just a tad low



If your R12 system stopped working, then it isn't just a "tad low". It is probably really low if it has any refrigerant left in the system at all.

Your question about the average price of a conversion is not something that can be easily answered. First, we need to know why your R12 charged system stopped working. Did it leak out? Did a switch fail? Did something get clogged up? Did the compressor or its clutch crap out? These are all things that need to be known. The most likely cause is a leak somewhere. And that leak needs to be found and repaired before recharging the system with either R12 or R134a.

As far as converting an R12 car over to R134a, there is a cheap way of doing it (just installing a ~$40 kit from most auto parts stores) and then there's the right way of doing it - which is more expensive because it involves flushing the system and replacing components.

The way I flush a system is to disconnect the accumulator and compressor from the system entirely, and remove the orifice tube. I then push A/C flush thru the system - following the instructions on the A/C flush bottle - then blow the system out with filtered/dried shop air. I then push a small amount of non-chlorinated brake cleaner thru the system to remove any remaining flush residue and blow a considerable amount of dried/filtered shop air for a couple of minutes thru the system to make sure nothing remains. Then I replace all the o-rings and the orifice tube. I add a certain amount (about half the system capacity) of the appropriate* A/C oil to a NEW accumulator, and then install it. If reusing the old A/C compressor, I drain it of all the old oil I can get out of it and add the appropriate* type and amount of A/C oil to it and install. Then I vacuum down the system for a minimum of 1 hour. Then charge with R134a - 90% of what the system will take in R12.

Concerning the appropriate* type of A/C oil to use - if converting an R12 system over to R134a and reusing components (like the A/C compressor) that may still have a small amount of mineral oil in them, I only use Ester oil. Ester oil is compatible with R12 and R134a refrigerants and it won't form a glue-like substance if it comes in contact with mineral oil like PAG will.

If replacing the A/C compressor and the entire system has been flushed to ensure no mineral oil residue remains in it, I'll add the appropriate amount and type of A/C system oil recommended by the compressor manufacturer (usually PAG). There are different viscosity (weights) of PAG oils so consult the manufacturer of the A/C compressor you are using for the proper type to use.
fierosound AUG 05, 02:47 AM

quote
Originally posted by fierosound:

Yahoo! A/C system still working fine.
It is blowing SO cold it can freeze you out of the car…
It appears I had finally fixed ALL the leaks once and for all.




It's been 1 YEAR and the A/C system is working exactly as it did last year.

theogre AUG 05, 11:27 AM

quote
Originally posted by fierosound:
I figured you'd jump on board. The DOT lawyer among us...
I never made any reference to these chemicals since we don't have those 'new vehicles'.

R152a is still however an EPA approved refrigerant for automotive air conditioning.
https://www.epa.gov/snap/ac...-duty-heavy-duty-and

"EPA has determined that R–152a (hydrofluorocarbon (HFC)-152a) is an acceptable refrigerant substitute (will now be referred to as ‘‘refrigerant’’) with use conditions for MVAC systems, as a replacement for CFC–12 in new MVAC systems. This determination applies to MVAC systems in newly manufactured vehicles only. "

"The toxicity profile of R–152a is comparable to R–12 and its most prevalent substitute, R–134a."

Granted, EPA is saying use is for "new vehicles" but R152a is compatible with our old system components and works better that R134a according to GM tests previously posted.

People can stay with whatever is in their cars - even R12 if it's still working - if they want.
They can refill using Envirosafe (and the petroleum gases in it) if they want an 'environmentally friendly' alternative to the 'unsafe' R134a...
They can also determine if they want to use R152a after reading all the EPA rules and regulations on the industry (that apply TO the industry).

The entire EPA document on R152a is here for anyone to read:
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/p...-12/pdf/E8-13086.pdf


EPA approval does not = DOT legal to use.
EPA lists many types on their SNAP list that are illegal for the street use from US DOT.
Even EPA doesn't allow retofit for R152 on MVAC list, only New systems made for it. (R-152a is HFC-152a like R-134a=HFC-134a.)
code:
Substitute Trade Name Retrofit/New ODP GWP ASHRAE SNAP Date     Use Conditions
HFC-152a   (N/A)      N            0   124 A2     June 12, 2008 Detailed conditions apply - see Rule
vs
HFC-134a   134a       R/N          0  1,430 A1 <snip>
(Snip part is too long for here and doesn't mean much right now but R-134 is likely to get "banned" in the US in the near future and stores won't sell it to DIY market. IOW Same "ban" happened to R12. Might be why many prices are low now.)

The Rule: https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/p...-12/pdf/E8-13086.pdf (summary on p5 of PDF)

quote
VIII. Final Rule Summary
EPA finds R–152a acceptable with use conditions for new motor vehicle air conditioning (MVAC) systems. New R–152a systems must be designed to avoid occupant exposure to concentrations of R–152a above 3.7% in the passenger cabin free space for more than 15 seconds, even in the event of a leak.
EPA requires prominent labeling of R–152a MVAC systems with a warning such as "CAUTION SYSTEM CONTAINS FLAMMABLE R–152a REFRIGERANT — TO BE SERVICED ONLY BY QUALIFIED PERSONNEL."
Consistent with SAE J639 Standard, this label will be mounted in the engine compartment on a component that is not normally replaced and where it can be easily seen. This label will include refrigerant identification information and indicate that the refrigerant is flammable.
Additionally, the final rule recommends additional training for MVAC service technicians and that OEMs conduct and keep on file R–152a systems FMEA to ensure that MVAC systems are safe and are designed with sufficient risk mitigation devices to ensure that occupants are not exposed to R–152a concentrations above 3.7% for more than 15 seconds in the passenger cabin free space.

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 08-05-2017).]