Side air intalke scoop (currently available) anyone know of any good ones? (Page 3/4)
skywurz DEC 27, 04:09 PM

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Originally posted by DimeMachine:


Sold. I will take one. Liquid nitrogen air intake cooling - what do you have?



Well first of all the coolant lines you removed that go to the throttle body. Yeah we will be putting those back. Instead of hooking it to the coolant system we will be hooking it to our LN2 system. A feature we have is whenever you "floor it" this quick motion shatters the TB allowing unrestricted airflow directly into the engine. At the same time the LN2 sprays all over cooling the top of the engine and surrounding area providing performance enhancing coolness.
Dennis LaGrua DEC 28, 10:48 AM

quote
Originally posted by skywurz:


Well first of all the coolant lines you removed that go to the throttle body. Yeah we will be putting those back. Instead of hooking it to the coolant system we will be hooking it to our LN2 system. A feature we have is whenever you "floor it" this quick motion shatters the TB allowing unrestricted airflow directly into the engine. At the same time the LN2 sprays all over cooling the top of the engine and surrounding area providing performance enhancing coolness.



Passing liquid Nitrogen or CO2 through the throttle body having a bit of moisture can freeze it open. I'd be cautious about going this route. You can purchase Cryo cooler kits and cool your intake but they are typically used to cool intercooler heat exchangers.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

DimeMachine DEC 28, 12:10 PM

quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:


Passing liquid Nitrogen or CO2 through the throttle body having a bit of moisture can freeze it open. I'd be cautious about going this route. You can purchase Cryo cooler kits and cool your intake but they are typically used to cool intercooler heat exchangers.




I thought he was joking. Shatters the TB.... No?
DimeMachine DEC 28, 12:18 PM

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Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

I think that there is a distinction to be made between air inlet temperature and coolant temperature.

Hotter coolant temperature is good because:
Thinner oil
Less heat loss during the power stroke from the hot pressurized gas to the head and cylinder walls

Lower air inlet temperature is good because:
Air is denser, so more mass in the cylinder

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There is an apparent contradiction in that you report that 155 °F coolant temp gives the most power.

I suspect that with hotter coolant, the head/intake is heating the inlet air, reducing its density.

Conclusion:
Do not take air inlet temperature sensor readings at face value. True air inlet temp is equal to the incoming air, plus some temperature rise due to the hot engine.

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If you want to use such low coolant temperatures, perhaps you should review your choice of oil viscosity.

If reducing coolant temp increases air density, then perhaps by using a thinner oil, you can further reduce coolant temp before the oil becomes too thick and reduces power.



TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

You bring up some good points to ponder.

Along the thought lines you brought up, it would be fun (if possible in a dyno cell) to be able to alter the inlet air temps, coolant temps and engine oil temps. I think the cooler the air temp the better, but it would be interesting to see what oil and coolant temps would be ideal for the 1/4 mile. Testing for road racing engines could not go nearly as low in temps because in longer ranges and timeframes you cannot expect to hold coolant or oil temps super low - or supercharged air inlet temps (if intercooled).

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84/87 NB, 3800SC, E-85, VS Cam, 2.8 Pulley, 4T65E-HD, HP Tuners, AEM Wideband, Regal GS Gauges, S-10 Brake Booster. 1/4 mile -11.85 at 114mph

skywurz DEC 28, 12:21 PM

quote
Originally posted by DimeMachine:


I thought he was joking. Shatters the TB.... No?



Yeah kinda thought about joking of a frozen open TB. decided just breaking it off entirely would be more obvious i was kidding and added more hilarity. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
pmbrunelle DEC 28, 11:55 PM

quote
Originally posted by DimeMachine:
Along the thought lines you brought up, it would be fun (if possible in a dyno cell) to be able to alter the inlet air temps, coolant temps and engine oil temps.



In the real world, my understanding is that engines are first roughly tuned by computer simulation, then in a test cell like you describe with controlled temperatures. By the time the engine is placed into a car, its ECU should already be tuned, at least for the "engine operation" part.

Determining basic parameters such as MBT spark in the car is for folks with no budget like you and I.

I suppose that for some more subjective "driver preference" settings, those ones could be adjusted in the car. I'm thinking of things like the throttle-by-wire settings here.

I believe that forum user KurtAKX works on the integration of the powertrain in a vehicle; perhaps he could shed some light on this, as that's his actual job.
theogre DEC 29, 01:23 PM

quote
Originally posted by DimeMachine:
My engine runs cool - no problem there what-so-ever. It is right at 180 where I have it set for normal weekend driving.

Just trying to lower underhood temps to get less heat into the intake tract. I have tested every possible inlet air temp and coolant temp I an think of over the past 7 years with this setup and she likes cooler IAT temps (the cooler the better) to make horsepower. Also likes cool coolant temps for best 1/4 mile performance. 155 coolant temp has shown the best in my car based upon extensive testing. Would not run that on the street though...that would be bad for a number of reasons. Back to air temp. Cold air holds more oxygen which means more fuel can be used which means more power. That is the goal I am after here.

You tested just How? Likely did nothing of real testing Yet You claim having more bay air will will make a dent on the Intake Air Charge (IAC) for the engine.
You're missing the whole point of having Cold Air Intake and likely worse.

Aluminum manifolds get main heated from Engine itself and often coolant passing thru them but related and limited to time and volume of air to heat.
Many 60° V6 and others have coolant "pipes" in the intake to get coolant to the heads etc. Engine Heads dumps a lot of heat to the intake too. Plus Intake manifolds Do Not have surface area inside and outside to dump heat to air like heatsinks for electronics or inter-coolers for turbos etc. IOW Al Intake manifolds get a lot of heat and little to release and intake manifold temps are close or same as engine temps.
So Even w/ Cold Air intakes, Fiero and many others still sees wide range of IAC temps Idle vs WOT because Above Idle to WOT, the intake Moves a lot of air volume and won't take time to heat up. Whatever "Hot Air" at idle in the intake gets eaten in Microseconds just moving off a stop sign/light.

Don't go by MAT in the air cleaner to watch real IAC temps. For V6 and others need more tools and likely drill a small hole to read IAC in the intake manifold near the injectors.
Same tools as bay vs heat thread or meter w/ max/min function.

(Will see Cold Air Intake working in real time on 87+ L4 because MAT is located between TBI and head. Is in #1 runner ~ 4" downstream of 700 TBI. That MAT will see 120+°F at idle drop to near = weather temp that day in less than a few Seconds, IOW This MAT can see freezing temps and lower in seconds driving in winter and rise quickly again next stop light. Likely L4 drops IAC temps faster then MAT reading because time to cool/heat the sensor plus time to scan because ECM and many newer PCM only updates 1 to 2 x a second to a scan tool. And that even w/ coolant heating under TBI to prevent fuel puddling under the TBI on the way to the Heater core.)
DimeMachine DEC 29, 03:22 PM

quote
Originally posted by theogre:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DimeMachine:
My engine runs cool - no problem there what-so-ever. It is right at 180 where I have it set for normal weekend driving.

Just trying to lower underhood temps to get less heat into the intake tract. I have tested every possible inlet air temp and coolant temp I an think of over the past 7 years with this setup and she likes cooler IAT temps (the cooler the better) to make horsepower. Also likes cool coolant temps for best 1/4 mile performance. 155 coolant temp has shown the best in my car based upon extensive testing. Would not run that on the street though...that would be bad for a number of reasons. Back to air temp. Cold air holds more oxygen which means more fuel can be used which means more power. That is the goal I am after here.

You tested just How? Likely did nothing of real testing Yet You claim having more bay air will will make a dent on the Intake Air Charge (IAC) for the engine.
You're missing the whole point of having Cold Air Intake and likely worse.

Aluminum manifolds get main heated from Engine itself and often coolant passing thru them but related and limited to time and volume of air to heat.
Many 60° V6 and others have coolant "pipes" in the intake to get coolant to the heads etc. Engine Heads dumps a lot of heat to the intake too. Plus Intake manifolds Do Not have surface area inside and outside to dump heat to air like heatsinks for electronics or inter-coolers for turbos etc. IOW Al Intake manifolds get a lot of heat and little to release and intake manifold temps are close or same as engine temps.
So Even w/ Cold Air intakes, Fiero and many others still sees wide range of IAC temps Idle vs WOT because Above Idle to WOT, the intake Moves a lot of air volume and won't take time to heat up. Whatever "Hot Air" at idle in the intake gets eaten in Microseconds just moving off a stop sign/light.

Don't go by MAT in the air cleaner to watch real IAC temps. For V6 and others need more tools and likely drill a small hole to read IAC in the intake manifold near the injectors.
Same tools as bay vs heat thread or meter w/ max/min function.

(Will see Cold Air Intake working in real time on 87+ L4 because MAT is located between TBI and head. Is in #1 runner ~ 4" downstream of 700 TBI. That MAT will see 120+°F at idle drop to near = weather temp that day in less than a few Seconds, IOW This MAT can see freezing temps and lower in seconds driving in winter and rise quickly again next stop light. Likely L4 drops IAC temps faster then MAT reading because time to cool/heat the sensor plus time to scan because ECM and many newer PCM only updates 1 to 2 x a second to a scan tool. And that even w/ coolant heating under TBI to prevent fuel puddling under the TBI on the way to the Heater core.)[/QUOTE]

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Ogre, thank you for the response.

I am talking about the L67 3800 Supercharged engine.
What does IOW stand for?

Next, L67 3800 engines have an IAT (intake air temp) sensor ahead of throttle body. All I am saying is if you have everything from the air filter to the throttle body at 130 degrees F vs 80 degrees F --- My money is on the 80 degree intake system making a few more horsepower. Even if the IAT sensor is reporting a number that is wrong (hotter than reality), the PCM is going to retard timing a fair amount on the 130 degree air to in an effort to prevent knock.

Are you saying one should not try to keep your intake tract cool on a performance vehicle?

[This message has been edited by DimeMachine (edited 12-29-2020).]

cvxjet DEC 29, 04:28 PM
When I installed a 5.0 FI engine in my 1973 Mustang, I used two Olds Cutlass Ciera Filters stacked together inside an extended Fiero V6 housing- It worked very well. With JBA Headers and no Cat I had around 250 HP.

One of the few smart things CA did as far as smog on old cars; They would allow a later engine in an older car, but actually did not require the catalytic converter- Because the early cars were not designed to have a >>HOT<< cat under the floor (Avoiding car fires)
theogre JAN 01, 12:16 AM

quote
Originally posted by DimeMachine:
Ogre, thank you for the response.

I am talking about the L67 3800 Supercharged engine.
What does IOW stand for?

Next, L67 3800 engines have an IAT (intake air temp) sensor ahead of throttle body. All I am saying is if you have everything from the air filter to the throttle body at 130 degrees F vs 80 degrees F --- My money is on the 80 degree intake system making a few more horsepower. Even if the IAT sensor is reporting a number that is wrong (hotter than reality), the PCM is going to retard timing a fair amount on the 130 degree air to in an effort to prevent knock.

Are you saying one should not try to keep your intake tract cool on a performance vehicle?

So your IAT/MAT is in the air cleaner same as normal for V6 Fiero or similar in the pipes to fender?

You need more tools as said above. To check if sensor is accurate and more.
Again MAT sensors need time to read changes to IAC. IAT/MAT sensors are Not like MAF sensors that reads near instantly.
IAT/MAT have enough Mass to slow down reading so If IAC get hot at idle then have drag run then slow or idle in a few seconds then sensors likely won't read the change much. More likely won't see it using ECM scanner at all. Plus many IAT/MAT have insulation "paint" over the sensor element adding more Mass etc to the sensor slowing down the response time more. If the sensor have metal screen then will have a "painted" sensor element.

So again, your MAT is Upstream to TB and rest of engine and still getting hot in ~ 18" of plumbing? Then likely have problems more bay venting won't solve.
Example: many Remove the intake muffler and put crap K&N cone then sucking hot air heated from exhaust, coolant pipe, etc. even when the cone is "in" the same fender area.
If sure Cold Air parts don't leak and suck hot air...
Could try insulation on the cold air plumbing and/or heat shield(s) to block IR from exhaust "lighting up" the air cleaner etc.
IR heating often does not care air flow in the engine bay. Starter and other E-parts can cook under IR even when have huge air flow on them. IR heated CAI parts can heat IAC at idle because slow IAC has time to heat.

And this Ignores S-charger is likely pushing over 200+°F air into the engine. Nearly all "Roots class" blowers can't use an inter-cooler like full turbo or belt drive turbo that makes a huge difference.